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AC YOW-YWG Reductions?  
User currently offlineCap'n Dan From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 231 posts, RR: 0
Posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1345 times:

AC's timetable now shows YOW-YWG as 1 mainline flight a day for the summer. I thought they were going to have two mainline flights, plus a Tango flight. Any insight?

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYWG From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 1147 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1240 times:

Air Canada is a very unpredictable airline  Big thumbs up
FLY A I R C A N A D A



Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
User currently offlineCanadianDC10 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 346 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1230 times:

Maybe AC only has one YOW-YWG route daily during the summer is because Tango now has two daily flights on that route in the summer.

User currently offlineRp tpa From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1226 times:

I have the AC timetable downloaded in my computer. The latest update (eff. Mar. 15) shows 2 non-stops in each direction. These are mainline, no idea if Tango has anything in addition to those 2 flights.

User currently offlineMEL From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 1100 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1210 times:

Looks like there will be two mainline AC flights, as well as a Tango flight. Mainline flights will be 737-200s, with the odd 319 flight mixed in there. Tango will be on a 737-200. 3 flights a day -- pretty good service if you ask me.


NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineYow From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1206 times:

Yeah according to the online timetable AC is cutting one mainline flight, so that there will only be one mainline and one Tango. But for the month of May, before the Tango flight starts there is only one flight period.

AC will "add" a flight with great fanfare, but not say a word when something is cut. AC was suppose to have two daily YOW-YEG flights but it will still remaing a 1. And in all their brillance they are not adding extra flights from YOW to both YVR and YYC this summer. In fact, AC is cutting capacity on the YOW-YVR route this summer over this winter. Currently there are 2 763s a day, but at this point the peak summer period is showing only 2 762 flights. So for anyone that says a market is always served to its needs, this proves that it's not true. YOW-YVR is a route with a quarter of a million O&D pax a year, not counting thousands of additional connecting pax, but with almost no competition, Air Toronto can do as much YYZ hubbing as it pleases.


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4999 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1203 times:

Thank you Andrew,

I definitely know how you feel... but these YYZers dont get it, and gotta bring out the worst in us, in order to get the point...

It is ridiculous, and stupid. Just like Tango saying they will 2 YUL-YHZ flights, well its now only 1 737.... Trust me, we lost our mainline flight to YEG and YWG, and we are 3 times bigger than Ottawa, no offense directed of course.....

I think Air Canada should definitely change its name to Air Toronto...... cuz thats what they really are..

Mark


User currently offlineYow From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1200 times:

No offence taken Mark, it's a fact that Montreal is 3 times the size of Ottawa.  Smile

But you're right the YYZers just don't get it. If AC cuts the number of YYZ-YVR flights from 13 to 12 nobody cares. But it's a big deal when AC is planning on cutting capacity on a route for the peak summer period over the winter schedule with only 2 flights a day on it. It proves what we have been saying all along.


User currently offlineYow From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1200 times:

Mark,

Just to further prove our point, back in the days of CP there were up to 6 YOW-YVR AC + CP combined flights a day during the summer months using 319/320s. Now this was probably too much capacity, but you know what I'm getting at.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1190 times:

Hey guys.....don't be sore losers. AC puts its aircraft on the routes that make the most $. Clearly, a 13th daily YYZ-YVR is more profitable than a 2nd daily YOW-YVR.

As for AC being called 'Air Toronto'.....you must be joking. The fed govt MANDATES thru the legislated AC Act that AC MUST be HQ'ed in YUL forever.....sounds like discrimination AGAINST Toronto (and the rest of English Canada) to me.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineCessnapimp From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1320 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1188 times:

Here we go again...

User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4999 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1188 times:

Yup here we go again...

Neil, you'll never get it.... trust me. We're not being sore losers, but it just doesnt make sense... its not about the money.... im sure they are equally as profitable, but you believe most certainly that AC is in the business of making money, but some of the numbers I have collected, and route annoucments/cuts make you believe otherwise...

mark


User currently offlineSamurai 777 From Canada, joined Jan 2000, 2458 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1190 times:

"Unpredictable" is a bit of an understatement as far as AC's timetables are concerned. While AC tries its very best to be Toronto-centric much to the disgust of its customers, other routes have their times and even equipment used changing almost monthly, making flight schedules almost unreliable! The YEG-YYC-YVR is a pretty good example of such a thing.

As I have mentioned in other posts before, I'm supposed to fly YEG-YYC-YOW-YVR-YEG this May. Since I booked the ticket, the flight times and even the equipment used has changed on at least one flight segment! Because I paid only the restricted fare, it might mean I have to pay an extra penalty fee for an itinerary change!!  Angry  Angry  Angry

FLYYUL, I'd agree with you on the name change to Air Toronto!


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4999 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1184 times:

Yeah.. Samurai777 I know how you feell... it feels like a roller coaster here at YUL...

You know, are we better off without CP? But in all honesty, these are bad moves for AC...WJ will definitely pick up the pieces, and what will be left for AC, but to then claim unprofitability, and saturation of market..

Ill tell you this much, 22 daily flight to YYC from YYZ is saturation, and 2 from YOW, or 1 from YHZ or even 3 from YUL, is not..... and the number are out there, YYZ demand does not justify 10X more flights, but AC will make you believe this...

Trust me, I flew YUL-YYZ, was on an A330, then an A320, then a B767-300, finally a A321... my row changed from the back, to front, to exit row, now to middle...

Thank god,
Mark


User currently offlineCessnapimp From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1320 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1180 times:

I'm sorry to hear that Samurai 777...sick.

You see, I am totally on the other end of the spectrum, as I want as many changes and connections as possible. Why? 'cause I like to changes planes and see other airports...but I'm a freak, not the regular pap. As a result, I have booked myself on WJ YOW-YVR in April with a stop AND a connection on the way to and 3 stops on the way back

My philosophy is that when you fly, or rather, when you are booked to fly nowadays (opposite to the jet- set sixties) you HAVE to give yourself some leeway; meaning more time in case of cancellations, reroutings, misconnections, IROP's etc...today's passenger must recognise that fact. You'll get there faster than the TGV but... bring a good book and quite a collection of CD's. how hard is that?

Regards
Grégoire


User currently offlineYow From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1179 times:

Yep here we go again, but let's stop before it goes too far this time.  Big grin

The facts of routes being or becoming underserved, based on what's published in the schedule at this time speak for themselves. If YVR-YOW was so unprofitable for AC then why would they fly the 2 daily flights with 763s during the winter? Wouldn't they only use 320s or 319s instead? So then dropping them to 762s during the summer, thereby cutting about 60 seats a day from the market at a time when traffic increases, makes no sense whatsoever. I can understand that the 763s need to be deployed on international routes during the summer, but wouldn't it make just a little too much sense to replace that lost capacity and to add a little more for the peak summer season with say an extra 320 flight as has occured in the past ? Not for the AC of the 21st century though.

Tell me something, not counting the heavily business- oriented Rapidair routes and the southern leisure routes, how many AC routes from YYZ, where traffic increases during the summer months, get a cut in capacity during the peak summer period...none right?

AC's Toronto-centrism has nothing to do with language or politics. There are 600,000 Franco-Ontarians in case no one has noticed, and a similar number of anglophone Quebecers.


User currently offlineYwg777 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 1264 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1178 times:

its 3 AC flights betwen YWG-YOW. 2 Mainline Jets and 1 tango flight. thats great service to our capital if you ask me.
Shawn


User currently offlineYow From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1170 times:

It was suppose to be 3 nonstop flights, but if you check the online schedule, unless this is an error (who knows, knowing AC) it now only lists 1 mainline flight a day as of May 1st.

User currently offlineYow From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1166 times:

WJ's expansion plans for the summer should be coming out any day now. My guess is that YHZ, YYT, and YUL will be added by the end of August along with at least 2 other new destinations in the east. Along with a bunch of new routes annouced from existing destinations.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1162 times:

Stop whining guys! AC puts its aircraft on the most profitable routes. If a 3rd daily YOW- or YUL-YVR flight made sense over a 13th daily YYZ-YVR flight, AC would fly it.

If you want more flights in YOW or YUL, fly more often.

Whine. Whine. Whine.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineLymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1152 times:

Dan, thanks alot, you've given FLYYUL yet another forum to demonstrate his sheer lack of knowledge of hub and spoke ops. I'm surprised he hasn't brought in the DFW website "load factors" yet...

FLYYUL, in EVERY post you make, you say "trust me"...Ooooh, I get it, we're supposed to second guess AC's management and instead believe "some of the numbers (you) have collected"???? Get me an AC barf bag...



buhh bye
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1144 times:

Well said Lymanm.....

AC barf bags.....ordered by some manager in YUL for the entire airline no doubt......because the Fed govt DICTATED that AC be based on YUL forever.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineCap'n Dan From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1132 times:

a) I agree with you, Neil. I'm just a bit jealous. The truth is that there is more demand from YOW than YYZ; AC is not dumb. It really bugs me when people get on Milton's back for losing money and then complain when he cuts unprofitable routes. That said, I'm still from Ottawa and I always love to see more YOW service...

b) Lymanm: "alot" is not a word. You probably meant to write "a lot."


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4999 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1134 times:

well thank you YYZ717 and Lumanm, im about to become a passenger service agent for Northwest at Dorval, so my knowledge is as good as yours, or even better...

Ive been following the scene, see the loads from seat mappers (which are accurate +-5%), and just words of mouth.

Furthermore, would you like to deny the load factors of 43 and 45% shown for AC at IAH and DFW. Not official, so whats the margin of error, +-5%... comeone, who are you kidding.

My knowledge has been growing since I became interested in 1996, and trust me, with this new job, ill learn a lot more every day..

Mark


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4999 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1133 times:

Let Milton take his American ass and French Canadian executives that believe in YYZ-centrism, it will be no loss for Montreal..... we've got Air Transat and Columbus  Smile

So it look like its me and Andrew, vs Neil and Lymanm.. we should have a real debate some time...

Mark


25 Mcdougald : This debate comes down to the question of whether Air Canada is a private business or a public utility. If it is a private business, AC should be allo
26 Lymanm : ...FLYYUL, it takes more than browsing through reservation computers and checking reserved seats to understand the concept of hub and spokes...go to a
27 Post contains images FLYYUL : Negative lymanm, Northwest is an airline with much credibility, unlike AC... AC is a pr nightmare..... Do you feel comfortable with the following situ
28 Captaingomes : Listen, Air Canada does what's best for them from a business perspective. While that's hard to prove, because they are so unprofitable, why does anybo
29 Yow : To the yyzers, I'm not whining or anything of the sort...all I did was ask the simple question of where's the logic in cutting capacity on a route at
30 C-GRYK : Mark, As a respected user on my list, I feel I must say something before I lose respect. You have got to stop this complaining of how Toronto gets so
31 Captaingomes : I could care less how many Air Canada A320's are flying in and out of YYZ. I really don't care. The logical answer is this ... 1. Air Canada uses a Hu
32 Captaingomes : Welcome back Jeremy! How was your trip?
33 Noise : To all YYZers, it seems that you guys can't argue withought making dumb and childish insults towards the other forum members. Mark does the effort of
34 Captaingomes : Noise, I would like you to disprove the reasons I gave in my last post, and how they are childish? And how can you or anybody realistically claim to k
35 C-GRYK : Chris, You have never contributed much in terms of positive info to this forum, and when I saw the other day you telling a certain user of this forum
36 Noise : Captaingomes, the reason why they are childish is because they have nothing to prove thier point and put down other people who have the info. I never
37 Noise : But guys, seriously, you don't find it a bit.........strange that there are so many flights from YYZ, yet almost none from YUL, YOW, YWG? AC does cla
38 Post contains images Yow : Yikes what a heated debate this has turned into! :O "Like I said, if there is a need in the market place, and Air Canada for whatever reason wishes to
39 Noise : I honesly thought that the JAX route would work. I just found the flight to Greenville made no sense.
40 Yow : JAX might have worked on a seasonal basis, like PBI or RSW. Noise, good point about Greenville.
41 Post contains images Captaingomes : Yes the virtual shouting match is dumb! Makes everybody look stupid. However, from an outsider's perspective, it's rather entertaining! Kinda like WWF
42 Post contains images FLYYUL : I have never disputed the Air Canada hub in Toronto....im to simply prove my opinion by the some facts that I see from statistics canada O&D combinati
43 Lymanm : Before I get started, I want to say I'm not from Toronto, I'm from Ottawa, I now live in Montreal. It is absolutely infuriating that some of you conti
44 Noise : I think we'd all like to do some mind reading Mark. Yet, maybe the people at AC do have a point. Toronto is far more richer and has a higher standard
45 Noise : Lymanm, as I said before, that's the positive side of having a hub in YYZ. You can get to anywhere in the world with just one stop.
46 Post contains images Captaingomes : So noise, if you agree with that chart, and Air Canada as the type of carrier it is, then you will agree that Air Canada does a lot better by using To
47 Cap'n Dan : I think we can all agree that there are plenty of routes in this great country of ours that are not served by Air Canada. So what. If AC doesn't want
48 SafeFlyer : As I said in my Trip Report (see the TR forum), AC, Never Again! Fly WJ or TS. For those needing proofs on the rentability of the YOW-YVR service; I f
49 Yow : Well said Capn'Dan about AC constantly changing their minds. It's annoying when they announce a new route with great fanfare, but then drop a route wi
50 Ywg777 : First off I have checked the AC schedule for the end of july and there are 2 daily YWG-YPW flights happenning plus 1 AC Tango flight. I take this as a
51 FLYYUL : The schedule is wrong YWG777... Guys you are all taking me wrong. First of all, lymanm, stop being an ass. Im stating my opinion and some facts that h
52 Post contains links Yow : Shawn, I too have seen those, but AC's online schedule begs to differ. Click here: http://www.aircanada.ca/schedules/scheduling/ and do a search for s
53 Cap'n Dan : I don't know where you're getting your information, but the AC webpage shows only one flight YOW-YWG, AC213 - a 737, from June onwards.
54 Samurai 777 : I decided to stay out of this for a while, since I don't really want to come off as an ignoramus or a damn whiner. But I must warn YWG777 that AC is u
55 Gmonney : Face it folks.....email the company, maybe they will give you an explanation about why the routes are as such. I truthfully don't think that AC can be
56 Planeawesome : I am going to Las Vegas in April. I'm hubbing in Cincinnatti instead of YYZ. This (and ORD, ATL, DTW, CLE,PIT) is where the best cost/flight times wer
57 FLYYUL : Look Montreal and others are still big markets, that can be stimulated with adequate non-stops, and competition... you can have a healthy YYZ hub with
58 Yyz717 : FLYYUL.....much profit potential on a route is based on yield/passenger, not strictly pax numbers. That's why Toronto-Greensville/Raleigh/Charlotte/Ka
59 Marco : I don't see what the big deal is! Air Canada, being a company trying to make money, has chosen YYZ as its hub. They do have important routes out of ot
60 Post contains images Yyz717 : DL has 6 daily ATL-YYZ flights! AC has 4 daily ATL-YYZ flights! That makes 10 daily ATL-YYZ flights!
61 FLYYUL : Not gonna happen Neil... maybe if you learned to speak French in Toronto, you could easily see more YYZ-based FA's....... Mark
62 Post contains images Yyz717 : AC could lower costs by hiring more YYZ-based flight crew for YYZ-origin flights. Oh well, it's been yet another slice Mark. Ya know, once that SECOND
63 YHU : Perhaps if more people in the Toronto area were bilingual then more YYZ people would be hired as Flight Attendants with AC. I would imagin being fully
64 Post contains images TWFirst : You Canadians are starting to act like Americans.... now play nice with each other!
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