Aviogenex From Mexico, joined Mar 2002, 67 posts, RR: 0 Posted (11 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 994 times:
Since Mexico is a relatively poor country and only 1 to 2% of the population can travel by air: Wouldn't it be smart to establish a regional airline that can operate Regional Jets or Turboprops out of Mexico City to all the small towns and villages where there is no need to send a B737 or a MD80?
It really doesn't make any sense to me cos' airlines in Mexico are complaining that they have poor load factors in their aircraft on several destinations and instead of trying to acommodate a proper size of aircaft (like a RJ's or Turboprops) to the route they keep sending MD80's or B737's . I think they should aquire RJ's or Turboprops in order to keep operating where they are operating without loosing more money.
Latinplane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2629 posts, RR: 15 Reply 2, posted (11 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 874 times:
I think that the 1-2% estimate is wrong, the country is rather poor but there is still a sophisticated domestic airline route system. However, air travel might not be as popular as in other countries in Latin America because Mexico has a good private highway system and the country isn't situated around high mountains or jungles like Colombia, Bolivia and Brazil.
Mexico is behind the regional jet age by around 10 years. However, RJ's are a newer concept and are quite expensive. RJ's are made to serve high yield business travelers who want the comfort of jet service for smaller segment routes. I believe that only two airlines can profitably fly RJ's on domestic routes, namely, Aeromar and Aerolitoral, who tend to focus on the business travelers.
The smaller Mexican airlines like: AeroCalifornia, Aviacsa, Aerolineas Internacionales and others are just not strong enough to front the cost of new aircraft. These carriers can only afford to get really old cheap aircraft like: 732s, 727s, DC-9s, which can be leased at really good affordable prices. Their intention is to serve the domestic market by offering cheap seats (compared with Cintra's airlines) and the migrant workers flying back home from the border cities.
Markus From United States of America, joined May 1999, 275 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (11 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 837 times:
Some of these airlines might be interested in some of the 'older' RJ's that US regionals will be getting rid of when newer and better ones begin to arrive. For example, Continental Express has about 25 ERJ-145ER's that they might want to unload as the newer LR and XR's arrive on property.
IB6400 From Mexico, joined Jun 1999, 242 posts, RR: 4 Reply 6, posted (11 years 1 month 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 801 times:
I think some of you guys are missing a point here...
Riad (Aviogenex) clearly stated: "Wouldn't be smart to start a new Regional airline in Mexico? Wouldn't be nice the idea of having regional jets flying the Mexican skies where there is no need of flying a 737 or MD-80?" I don't think he ever said something about why Internacionales, Aerocalifornia or whatever are not buying regional jets...
I think it's a good idea with a good planification of the airline. Focusing on what customers really need, I would bet for business travelers. Look at Aeromar, a great airline. I think Aeromar could really boost on some routes with Regional Jets.
What is Southern Winds doing in Argentina?
Rojo PLEASE post a reply for this topic, Seriously I would be very pleased reading your comments about this.
(By the way I love what I am studying!!)
Ricardo (Ghost 77) I am really surprised with the quality of your last post. Instead of saying how poor is Riad's post or how wrong the statistics are, why don't you post the real numbers on which part of the population could really fly? Ask Mr. Cerisola Weber, he could help you. Please think before you write, be responsible on your thoughts.
"Yo soy yo más mis circunstancias"
·Ortega y Gasset·
Yo soy yo más mis circunstancias - J. Ortega y Gasset
Latinplane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2629 posts, RR: 15 Reply 7, posted (11 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 783 times:
Well, if the statistics are correct and only 1-2% of the 101,879,171 Mexican population (according to statistical data from the Mexican census bureau) that would mean that only about 2-3 million Mexicans are able to fly. Why would anyone then try to establish a new airline flying regional jets.
I must say that I've seen (rather) heard the same numbers from news reports on television, but it just doesn't make clear sense (to me) when I also understand that just MEX city alone handles 20 million passengers per year (of course, considering that it's the main gateway to the country) and what about the rest of the country. However, don't take my word for it, I could be extremely ignorant about the facts since I don't live in the country. And don't anticipate a new airline to start service in Mexico, I found out not long ago that VuelaMex is dead. If the RJ's will ever be flying with Mexican flags, I suspect that they will also hold the colors and logos of Aerolitoral and AeroMar.
I for one would love to see a brand new EMB-170 flying in Aerolitoral or AeroMar colors any day, but I'm not holding my breath for it to happen. As a stated before, business travelers still constitute a small minority of all passengers in the domestic scene.
Flying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4111 posts, RR: 39 Reply 8, posted (11 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 779 times:
Aviogenex + Latinplane: do you think that leasing is an option for them? There are quite a few new RJs of various sizes available from the big lessors in the coming years - and most are not yet placed with an airline. Is this an option to replace DC-9s and B737s? Maybe, future will tell.
Establishing a new regional airline makes only sense when you can grab high-yield traffic, otherwise you will have low yields on comparably high cost (per seat) planes.
Latinplane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2629 posts, RR: 15 Reply 9, posted (11 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 779 times:
Oh yeah, and Aviogenex didn't say anything about Aerocalifornia, Aerolineas or any other airline,I did, but he did say "airlines in Mexico are complaining that they have poor load factors in their aircraft on several destinations and instead of trying to acommodate a proper size of aircaft (like a RJ's or Turboprops) to the route they keep sending MD80's or B737's ." So obviously he was refering to those airlines.
I believe that these airlines will consider leasing some RJ's in the next few years as they realise that they need to upgrade their equipment to better compete with the American regional airlines. But like I said, the Mexican regionals are a few years behind so it we'll just have to wait and see.
Aviogenex From Mexico, joined Mar 2002, 67 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 760 times:
Maybe I didn't made myself clear but I think something like a Southwest in Mexico using RJ's in Mexico would be wise, of course with a good planning and good management.
By charging fair prices and flying a comprehensive route system people will be encouraged to fly more and so that figure of 1 to 2% of the population will change.
And belive me I know the figures and so IB6400.
And belive me guys a lot of the traffic at Mexico City airport is international (watch it I didn't say all of it).
MX-757 From Mexico, joined Dec 1999, 113 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 749 times:
Yeah, you're all right, Regional Low fare Airlines are so necessary right now in Mexico. Ticket prices on major airlines are just too high and flying travel isn't as popular as in other countries. I mean, people thinks twice before considering traveling by plane. That's a reality.
Regional service with more extensive routes would be great. Not to forget low fares.
So, for me the best thing for Aerolitoral and Aeromar would be improving their fleet, service and expand routes. This isn't utopic, it's just a fact to consider by this airlines.
For example, there was a MD 80 flying from my city (Tepic, Nayarit, Mexico) to Mexico City and I still don't know if this service stopped or what, but a new ATR 42 service by Aeromar is now working. I think an ATR 42 covers the demand for my city. Or maybe the AeroMexico MD 80 is still flying and this regional plane (Aeromar) was added to meet the increase of traffic.
BTW, Aerocalifornia also serves the MEX-TPQ route and it is quite good.
Cx340 From Mexico, joined Sep 2000, 609 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 735 times:
I don't think the figure of 1-2% of the population is correct. I would beleive that a figure of around 10% would be more believable. But I won't stand by that figure until I can confirm it, since we all like facts and not ideas.
P.D. Like Latinplane said, MEX alone handles more than 21 million passangers a year. It is currently No. 38 in the world.
AMX From Mexico, joined Oct 2001, 91 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 723 times:
I believe that 1-2% of Mexicans do fly each year, face it, there are almost 40 million people in living in extreme poverty in this country (which obviously don't fly), the 60 million left are classified as poor, middle, upper middle and upper class.
What Mexico really does need is to LOWER aviation-related taxes!! A Mexican plane ticket is divided into three parts: federal taxes, airport-related taxes, and the airline's fare. If the government commits to lower its taxes and the airport's reconsider valuating their landing fees, etc., more people would actually start flying!
What frequent fliers in Mexico want is an airline that would offer direct flights to its destination with no lenghty connections in the airline's hub, which usually is the monopolistic and rather far (for northern cities)Mexico City Intl Airport. Also, with relatively new and modern airplanes! with COMPETITIVE fares, not monopolistic ones!
Aerolitoral is doing a fine job, for example, but I think the airline has long routes operating with its biggest aircraft: the SAAB 340B. That's why they should get CRJ's or EMB's.
Ghost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5127 posts, RR: 53 Reply 15, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 717 times:
Well I think I didn´t expressed myself correct. What I wanted to said was, that AVIO´s comment wasn´t poor, the poor thing I was refering to was the 1-2% stadistic flying in the country. Don´t have correct stats but I think it´s a higher number. BUT also there´s a change I´m wrong i just make a quick visit to Cintra´s website and these were the stats:
Ghost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5127 posts, RR: 53 Reply 17, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 714 times:
Compadre, you touch a very good point... TAXES at MEXICO. And what person better than you while you sometimes have to travel from your city to MTY connecting at MEX.
That´s one of the main problem most of us have all the time you paid very expesive taxes while you travel. From the ticket cost around the 25 to 35% of the ticket is destinated to pay the high taxes. Almost all the people it´s against the TUA (Tarifa de Uso de Aeropuerto) while you fly domestic... it would be ok if they charge while you are flying International but you know how things are in Mex. Also specially Cancun it´s on the top 10 list of worldwide airport most expensive to land .
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
Aviogenex From Mexico, joined Mar 2002, 67 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 706 times:
You're making a good pointhere. For AMX I totally agree with the statement you made about saying that Aerolitoral should use RJ's in the higher capacity routes where the 340's are too small or just not suitable for the route. And about the Taxes, it is unbelivably crazy how much taxes (mexican passengers like me) have to pay every time (naturally) we want to travell.
P.S. I am gonna check the 1 to 2% figure again, I think I am wrong. But I don't think that percentage won't rise way too much.
IB6400 From Mexico, joined Jun 1999, 242 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 702 times:
Ricardo (Ghost 77):
It's very nice to talk and set things the proper way... Courtesy. Thanks!
And on the statistics...
I bet the real numbers of the statistics concerning the percentage of people in Mexico are very close to the 2% or even the 5% of the population.
The hint is seeing thru Mexico City, Guadalajara or Monterrey. These cities are not the entire country. There is a lot of land in this country where there are, as AMX said 40 millions in extreme poverty.
Most of the people's main way of transportation is by bus service. I am sure is the most popular way of transportation for a large part of the population.
Ask why many people and I guess a lot of Mexican users in this forum use a bus or a car instead of an airplane in the Mexico - Acapulco route... It's slower but cheaper. Ask why many people move in the Guadalajara - Puerto Vallarta route by roads (not even highways) instead of the Aerolitoral flight from GDL to PVR.
There is also a Mexico City - Tijuana bus service, that's about 2500 kms. or in other words a ride of two days.
So think about it... You'll see what I am talking about.
What this country and I guess the most part of Latinamerica (if not all) needs are better goverments who can help the airline industries and boost the passanger and cargo services.
"Yo soy yo más mis circunstancias"
Ortega y Gasset
Yo soy yo más mis circunstancias - J. Ortega y Gasset
Cx340 From Mexico, joined Sep 2000, 609 posts, RR: 4 Reply 20, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 693 times:
Well guys, I was looking at some statistics from the SCT and the National Immigration Institute, and they show that during the year 2000, approximately 58 million passangers traveled through air in the whole country. About 21 million of those internationally.
According to INAMI, around 16 million forms of entry top the country were filed throughout Mexico, and roughly 58% of those at airports, which accounts for about 9 million at airports, but these are just forms of entry, so they are only counting the flights into Mexico, and not the flights going abroad, so I figure that most foreigners went back to their countries and most mexicans returned to Mexico, so I would say the 9 million figure should be multiplied times 2 and then you tentatively would have about 18 million immigration forms and therefore passangers entering and exiting the county during 2000.
The problem is there is no way to know how many of the international passangers were Mexican and how many foreigners, plus how many passangers in domestic flights within Mexico were foreigners. So, anyone care to find out or has this information?
AM744 From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1689 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 689 times:
RJs are expensive to operate on routes under 300NM, maybe not particularly suited for Aeromar, but they might work for a new airline that makes something like Continental's RJs to Mexico, but in the oposite direction. You get the idea.
Latinplane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2629 posts, RR: 15 Reply 22, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 684 times:
There you go, AM744. You just said everything. An RJ is not meant to serve Southwest type service because they are too expensive to operate on short hops. The RJ's are meant for business travelers.
I guess that it is difficult (for me) to completely understand how many actual domestic passengers the country supports, but it is definitely correct to say that most of the population travels by bus because an airplane ride is a luxury for a great percentage of the population. The true level of extreme poverty is around 55 percent of the population, which also include 30 million or so native indigenous people who are unfortunately under extreme, abject, and desperate poverty.
Let us also remember that a great portion of Mexico's domestic air travel is created by the 10 million or so Mexicans who are not counted because they live outside the country (Like my parents). These people not only directly send a whopping $8.5 billion dollars($8,500,000,000) to support the Mexican economy, (a figure that exceeds the country’s income from tourism and is half the total annual amount of direct foreign investment) but also support Mexico’s domestic airline system. 1 million or so Mexicans living in the U.S. (and this number does not include the American sons/daughters) travel to Mexico at least once or twice a year. However, many of these people may not be counted as these are the ones that travel thru border airports such as: Tijuana, Matamoros, Mexicali, Ciudad Juarez and so forth who are official domestic travelers and not international passengers. These people stimulate domestic air travel tremendously and therefore have an impact on the number of people who travel by air in the country. Are these people being considered in the 1-2% estimate?
Aviogenex From Mexico, joined Mar 2002, 67 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 659 times:
I know how a RJ works and I understand it is mainly aimed to the business travellers and should be used on the 300nm plus range.
But I still don't get an answer on what kind of aircraft should be used by a LOW-FARES MEXICAN AIRLINE.
Flying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4111 posts, RR: 39 Reply 24, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 656 times:
Low-Fare regional: either FD928 or EMB190/195. Largest ones available, means costs per seat are lowest possible for this type of aircraft. If smaller necessary down to FD728 or EMB170/175. CRJ700/900 possible but least interesting choice IMO.
Low-Fare domestic: B737-400/800 or 300/700 or A319 with 150 seats or A320-200 with 180 seats.