Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Why Must Scotland Rely On Low-cost Airlines  
User currently offlineSouthside From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 23 posts, RR: 0
Posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1696 times:

Don't get me wrong, I love low cost airlines, and particularly their prices. easyJet, Go, and Ryanair have all been great to Scotland.

However, why do certain people (including MPs and MSPs) set their sights on low-cost airlines as the highest target when talking about more flights from Scotland? Why should every other city in Europe get full service when EDI and GLA get no frills?

The likes of Alitalia, SAS, Iberia, Austrian, and Olympic should all recognise Scotland too. I also find it unfair that Air France and KLM fly their own 737s etc to most continental cities but the UK regions have to settle for franchise carriers with smaller planes.

Thoughts anyone?

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNZ767 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 1620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1643 times:

No offence intended, but the Scots are renowned for their frugality.
Hence the low-cost services.  Smile


User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1636 times:

Well BA is well known as London Airways so there's their reason.
BMI, well, err...lets say LHR,EMA,MAN airline.

I aint too bothered about no-frills airlines Big grin
Means other guys have to pay loads more  Big thumbs up

Mind GLA gets CO 764 etc.  Smile



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineCapt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1630 times:

I would guess because low-cost airlines find it much easier to make a profit on Scottish routes due to the..er...low-cost of their ops!

Don't know whether Scotland could support OA, OS etc. services. I presume the mix of pax isn't right for these Business-class airlines?

Regards


User currently offlineEGGD From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 12443 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1628 times:

Because internal full-service airlines mostly rely on buisness passengers, and there is nowhere for buisness passengers to go in Scotland (No buisness = no buisness passengers).

Dan  Laugh out loud


User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1616 times:

Finally we find out the reasons for Go's absurd decision to open a base at BRS/EGGD!  Laugh out loud


When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineB727-200 From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 1051 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1604 times:


For once NZ767, I agree with you. In fact, I nearly fell off the chair laughing when I first read the title of the thread (but you beat me to the obvious response  Smile )

B727-200.


User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7377 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1588 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!


May I humbly suggest if you've got problems with low-cost operations from Scotland please conact one of the Scottish airports and tell them to hand over a low-cost operator of their choice to MAN as we would love to have one here!

Furthering Capt. Picard's response, Olympic have reduced MAN-ATH to 2 weekly, Austrian are about to reduce from 11 weekly to 6 weekly their VIE-MAN service despite using a franchisor, Alitalia have tried three times to make a go out of MAN (twice they extended the MAN run to DUB with 5th freedom rights) and Iberia used to have 2 daily flights to MAN (one to MAD and the other to BCN) but now they're back down to one. If these airlines cannot generate sufficient demand from the "premium payers" around here and have to scale back their operations, why would they attempt to launch services to a smaller catchment area?

As for AF and KLM, I guess we're lucky at MAN in that we're still mainline for AF (with 6 daily flights to CDG; pity we lost the LYS link though) and KLM (through KLMuk) have actually increased frequency from 4 daily when they flew the route themselves to 6 daily with KLMuk (it was 7 daily though).

David/MAN


User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1565 times:

sorry ba do fly from scottish airports and have just annouced a price cut.....


It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1545 times:

BA fly from Scottish Airports to:
London
Birmingham
Manchester
Bristol
Cardiff
Southampton


Woooo! What a selection!  Wow!



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineBlink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5482 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1513 times:

For Low-fares, when I flew to scotland(via LHR) I thought I saw a banner that said BA 18 daily to EDI. I could have misread it though.

As for business pax, coming back to LHR, the 757 was filled with business passengers.

blink



Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
User currently offlineCapt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1509 times:

I think the question was more geared towards why Scotland is seemingly underserved internationally, by full-service carriers.

To that end, I think the question has already been answered.

Regards


User currently offlineNighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5150 posts, RR: 33
Reply 12, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1500 times:

It is a very good question. Edinburgh and Glasgow are the second and third most popular tourist destinations in the uk, with London being first. Therefore you would have thought international flights would be very popular. I am not sure exactly what the tourism figures are, but i believe scotland gets quite a lot of visitors each year. Just about all of these passengers route via LHR/LGW/MAN etc.

In terms of tourism scotland is a very viable option.

When it comes to business i think scotland is not terribly popular. There is demand, but this is somewhat limited, and may not be enough to fill a normal business class airline.

The various MPs seem to be encouraging low cost airlines, as these are seen to be the way forward. Low cost airlines make routes that were previously unpopular very popular, due to the low costs. I think if more low cost airlines flew from scottish airports, then other "normal" airlines will begin to recognise that the market here is potentially large, and will start operating more flights.



That'll teach you
User currently offlineNZ767 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 1620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1496 times:

B727-200,
Well I nearly fell off the chair myself.
Once I gained my composure, I spent the next ten minutes thinking to myself, "Umm, How do I respond to this politely?".
I didn't want to offend anyone and start a war. Big grin


User currently offlineLOT767-300ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1488 times:

Southside havent you heard any cheap scottish jokes? come on man your killing me here (no offense Dan and G)

User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1470 times:

Damn you LOT  Angry  Laugh out loud
Problem is the likes of GLA,EDI have high handling fee's so its unlikely that they would be chosen as a low-cost airlines base.



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1449 times:

Unfortunately some of the more extreme MSP's take the view that it is some form of conspiracy (presumably an English one) that keeps airlines out of Scotland. The fact is that they struggle to make money. Scotland has a relatively small population, and it is split largely between Glasgow and Edinburgh. The level of business activity is far below that in the south of England, hence the fewer number of flights. Having said that, Gkirk is correct to point out that BA is London Airways, but I would go further and say it is Heathrow Airways, their mismanagement of Gatwick is just as bad.

Of course, that doesn't explain why other carriers are reluctant to go there, except to say that they prefer to concentrate their assets on London, where they can get a much better return, and rely on transfer traffic up to Scotland. It isn't that different to carriers not flying to some of the French, German or Italian secondary cities.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineEGNM-LBA From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1430 times:

GKIrk - I don't think landing fees are an issue here. Remember, the original gist of the thread is that there are too many low-cost flights out of Scotland. Easy, Go & Ryanair are all flying out of one airport or another up there.

David - Can you explain why you would want to see a low cost airline at MAN? The North West certainly doesn't need a low-cost base - it has LPL afterall. I'm not sure I understand the economic rationale behind wanting to replicate this in MAN as well. Isn't it better at sticking to what its good at - long-haul, flights to european business centres etc etc.


User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7377 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1419 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!


EGNM-LBA, it will be worth it just to see how Rod Hull and Emu...sorry Rod Hill of LPL having the look of shock when the airlines go to an airport with a wider catchment area The CAA pricing proposals state that MAN hasn't gone out to attract to low-cost....so far. Once the TGWU is reigned in to actually agree a cost-effective security provision (some of the MAN employed security guards appear to be paid almost twice as much as security guards working for other companies at the airport!), MAN should be able to further reduce handling charges to something near what the low-costers want!

Anyway, I fully expect to see easyJet transfer to MAN within the next 5 years so that they can finally operate from their airport of choice in the Northwest (I believe the only part of the easyGroup that wasn't established in Manchester before Liverpool is the airline...make of that what you will).

David/MAN


User currently onlineHUYfan From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 1407 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

BA also fly to Paris CDG to Edinburgh, i do believe that with the ERJs BA could open up numerous destinations from Edinburgh, Hamburg, Dusseldorf, Munich, Oslo, Stockholm and Milan to name a few.

It has always been an idea of mine to close EDI and GLA and open a large national airport halfway between Glasgow and Edinburgh, it would only require 30mins travelling time from either city. Combined, this airport could certainly be bigger than BHX and a good way towards MAN. Oh well, i can hope!

regards

mike


User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7377 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1388 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!


Mike

That almost sounds like a similar plan that was floated, I believe, in the 1950s for LPL and MAN to close with everything at Burtonwood!

David


User currently offlineNighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5150 posts, RR: 33
Reply 21, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1373 times:

GKIrk - I don't think landing fees are an issue here. Remember, the original gist of the thread is that there are too many low-cost flights out of Scotland. Easy, Go & Ryanair are all flying out of one airport or another up there.

I would have to disagree with your post one point: There are not enough low cost flights from scottish airprots. Both GO and Easyjet are despirate to set up a hub in scotland, flying to thier various European airports, but because of BAAs high costs it is simply not feasable. At the moment they only fly to thier main hubs, and easyjet fly to Amsterdam and Dublin, both of which were huge successes.

If landing fees were reduced then we would have both GO and Easyjet setting up hubs in scotland and the number of passengers passing through the airports would increase very rapidly. As the airports become more popular, then more airlines would be willing to fly to them, tapping into the transfers provided by easyjet/go etc...

I personally wouldnt worry about the increase in low cost flights, it is a good thing. Over time it will bring in the other airlines...



That'll teach you
User currently offlineEGNM-LBA From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1372 times:

Sorry David, I have to disagree with you on this one. So far as low cost is concerned, the catchment area for LPL *is* the same as MAN. The drive time from Leeds and the east for example is an extra 19 miles / 17 mins to LPL compared to MAN. Are those people for whom obtaining the absolute lowest fares is first & foremost prepared to travel this small extra distance? - of course they are. From the north down the M6, the extra travel time is only 15mins. At the end of the day, you cannot trumpet a catchment area of 30million for MAN without accepting that just about all of it is fair game for the low-cost boys at LPL.

The proof of this of course are the high loads that Easy enjoy on their LPL services. In fact, I'm sure if LPL routes were compared on a like for like basis with LTN, load factors and RPKs would be pretty similar. Why don't you do some comparisons the next time you are in the CAA statisitcs - I'm sure it would be interesting.

It is unliekly therefore that Easy would carry significantly more passengers or obtain higher yields from MAN than they do from LPL. The only motivation for moving therefore would be if Easy could negotiate lower landing and handling fees from MAN than they currently pay at LPL. An unlikely scenario due to all sorts of reasons.

If we're talking 5 years hence, I'd be much more confident in Easy opening a 2nd northern base at Finningley than moving their operations from LPL to MAN. Not really a wild guess of course, the operators of LPL are the prospective operators of FYY, which means that a business relationship already exists with Easy (and Ryanair for that matter). I'm sure plans are already afoot for bulk discounting and volume bonus arrangements that could be put into place for dual operations at LPL / FYY.

Egnm


User currently offlineSouthside From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1349 times:

Can I just point out here - I don't think there are "too many" low cost services from Scotland - I would love to see more. What I'm saying is that the powers that be are focusing all of their attention on the low cost carriers.

Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Calling For Perspective On Low-Cost Airlines posted Tue Apr 6 2004 20:29:02 by Coa764
Observer Article On Low Cost Airlines posted Sun Jul 7 2002 16:26:34 by GDB
Why No Low Cost Airlines At Innsbruck? posted Wed Mar 10 2004 21:15:06 by Adriaticflight
11-page Special On Euro Low-cost Airlines posted Thu Apr 11 2002 23:13:40 by Capt.Picard
Low-cost Airlines At GLA...do They Use Airbridges? posted Wed Nov 15 2006 15:15:15 by 8herveg
Low Cost Airlines posted Tue Oct 10 2006 21:14:29 by Rom1
How To Save Low Cost Airlines - Funny posted Fri Aug 25 2006 04:31:09 by Scoliodon
Low-cost Airlines Ignoring ATC? posted Thu Aug 24 2006 10:44:35 by Infodesk
Futures For Low-Cost Airlines.... posted Tue Jun 13 2006 22:27:57 by Dolcevita747
Why A/c Burn More Fuel On Low Altituted? posted Thu Jan 12 2006 16:56:39 by AirCanada014