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Fairchild-Dornier Update  
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 36
Posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2003 times:

* The company has recieved a first credit, an advanced payment of 20 million from a 90 million US-$ loan.

* Lufthansa and GECAS remain committed to the project, German sources suggest that LH is actively involved in the ongoing talks and seems to prefer Boeing as the strategic partner.

* Wings production in San Antonio has been stopped for now as there are enough 328JET wings in Germany in the moment to keep the production running.

* The German secreatary of treasure has already indicated in Brussels that the German government wants to give a loan to FD.

That´s the situation as reported by a number of German newspapers.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders


Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTechRep From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1878 times:

Ever read that story, The little engine who could? I think I can, I think I can, I think I can.......

Choo Choo

TechRep


User currently offlineLZ-TLT From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1852 times:

I seriously doubt that either the Bavarian Government or the Federal Government would jump in to save FaiDor for a variety of reasons:

Chancellor Schroeder is a PR-Monkey. Two years ago, he tried to save the REALLY bankrupt Holzmann Group (a german construction company), just to raise his public rating. Now, Holzmann is absolutely bankrupt. Looks like he's preferring rather PR-heavy actions costing a lot of money for nothing(but his own overblown ego). With the BAD publicity he recently got as Holzmann went bankrupt again, he wouldn't be eager to play the saviour for FaiDor. And once more, FaiDor is not his scope, because(contrary to Holzmann), it is a firma which could survive and write fat black numbers.

The Bavarian Premier Minister Stoiber is running against Schroeder for the elections Fall 2002. A possible intevention of bavarian banks in the FaiDor crisis could cost him a lot of votes in case it turns into flop. As if this is not enough, he has his own kind of "Holzmann-like" problem - with Stoiber's blessing, bavarian banks pumped a lot of money in the german Kirch Group(a multimedia/PayTV company turned into a complete fraud and also a bottomless pit). So looks he shares the same taste for interventions in dubious, fraudulent and almost bankrupt companies like Schroeder.

So, looking at this you can see the future - FaiDor goes into "controlled" bankrupcy and will be sold to Boeing(interested in buying out FaiDor, but only without the debts, just as it would be in the case of bankrupcy). Boeing buys out, ditches the 328 series and the 717 and hopes to take off with the 528/728/928.


User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1836 times:

i really do hope that FD will find a strategic investor, and i surely hope it´s gonna be boeing. i do believe that the 528/728/928 would fit nicely into boeing´s marketing scheme.

although i don´t disagree LZ-TLT´s comments, i don´t believe anyone, Schröder or Stoiber, would let FD go bankrupt, since there are too many jobs, i believe 3600, at stake.

cheers
daniel



If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
User currently offlineLZ-TLT From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Johnnybgoode,

Both Schroeder and Stoiber have more profit to let FD go bankrupt and then sell it to Boeing, here is why:

1. Boeing wants to buy FD only WITHOUT the debts, and the debts are erased by the bankrupcy procedure

2. Jobs aren't lost, unless after a Boeing buyout, the entire production moves to somewhere else than Oberpfaffenhofen. OK, let's see if it is possible to move an entire production facility (or build a new one). Quite expensive, don't you think?

3. Both Schroeder and Stoiber could be able to keep their public ratings up executing such a plan more than by a financial intervention, because the jobs and money will be saved this way


User currently offlineTechRep From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1788 times:

I can't see the Do328 being ditched for a variety of reasons. First, it is not that unsuccessful of a frame and currently we have many customers. In fact we could have even more customers if the financial backing was there. Second, we are still Legally obligated to provide customer support, spares, engineering, tech/pubs and do not forget Corporate. We having been selling a lot of ENVOY3's and they are a great Corporate commuter aircraft.

What I can see is breaking the company into different sections and different cost centers. Currently we are only building Jet powered aircraft since the 328TP is no longer being produced, the demand for TP aircraft has diminished and market demand is low.


Our Global Support Center was poised to begin training on the Do728, my hope is this will remain intact and they do not separate the support in that regard. One of the driving factors of my coming to FD was the Do728 project. I was hired because of my Airbus experience and the commonality it shares with the Do728, system wise.

TechRep




User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1764 times:

I would think Boeing would be overjoyed at having a completely engineered and marketable aircraft family for less than two billion US. That's a drop in the bucket for Boeing. It would be stupid of them NOT to buy Faidor.

The 328Jet should stay as well. It has made slow, but consistent inroads into an already saturated regional market (if you count TP's and TF's). Also, any goowill garnered by the 328 possibly can get customers into the 528/728/etc.

Let's hope neither the Germany gov't or Boeing drag their feet on this one.


User currently offlineLhb From Belgium, joined Mar 2001, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1753 times:

Are there any others potential buyers than Boeing for Fairchild Dornier?

Regards, Laurent.


User currently offlineTechRep From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1755 times:

Step one is now complete read the article.

http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT3B9GHVLZC&live=true&useoverridetemplate=ZZZFKOXOA0C&tagid=ZZZ8AFN2YZB&subheading=aerospace,%20defence%20%26%20advanced%20engineering

TechRep


User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1733 times:

Embraer as a potential investor?
What are the chances of that?!?!?

But glad you got the bridge financing.



User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 36
Reply 10, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1715 times:

If you ask me someone got mixed up with "cempetetor" and "investor" and all carried Embraer further. For Embraer the gain would be close the ultimate freezing point - one of the project would have to be written off, meaning a 2bn US-$ write off. And using the OP facility for the EMB170/195 would really upset the workers in Brazil. Chances are 0% IMO.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1668 times:

Face facts...the company is dead as a doornail...kaput, and so are their aeroplane projects. TOO little...too late.

User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 36
Reply 12, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1661 times:

411A, could you PLEASE give reasons why this is the case? Or is it just unfounded wish-thinking from your side? As you might have seen a first credit has been given with more money to come in within the next two weeks.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1637 times:

What did happen with the potential investors that were ACTUALLY interested, i.e Boeing and Bombardier??


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1632 times:

I think both have waited until the inevitable--bankruptcy. Much easier to buy once the debts are restructured since a lot of them will be forgiven.. and the others reduced. I see the basic suitors as either Boeing or Raytheon. I believe that the German gov't and Lufthansa has expressed a preference for Boeing.

It's interesting to note that neither Lufthansa nor GECAS have waived in their support of the project. Nor has the German gov't which is providing bridge financing. Clearly, the product is on-target--even if the financing was shortsighted.

I'm not pessimistic about the sale. I just wish it would hurry up and get organized.

411A appears to be a bitter, retiring airline pilot. I've met a few--they've had nothing positive to say about anything.


User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1621 times:

I certainly hope that FD doesn't end up like Fokker. Just a hypothetical theory on my part, but how about moving one assembly line to San Antonio? Maybe the 728 project? Or is there any logic to Lockheed getting back into the game by acquiring FD? Again, these are only theories, and not fact. Regards.


"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineTechRep From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1627 times:

Potential investors for obvious reasons, are interested in keeping negotiations quite. If it were disclosed who the potential parties were then it could effect the stock of that company, usualy in a negative way. Early on it was disclosed that Boeing was a potential partner, of course this spread like wildfire, I haven't looked but I can speculate this had some impact on Boeing stock.

In my opinion a partner has already been found but is laying low and letting the process take effect. First the BK (chapter 11), Second, bridge financing, Thrid, approval for the $800 MN US Dollars from German Banks as previously applied for but put on hiatas due to German elections, Fourth, stripping the company to essential employees only thus allowing the partner to build from that base, Fifth, discussing the direction and overall goals the new partner deems important (Do328 and Do728 family).

These are a few things off the top my head, for obvious reasons some personal and some of a nationalistic stand point there are those here who would like to see FD fail. I say to those people the loss of FD would mean the loss of many jobs and potentialy succseful projects.

The Do728 will be a dominate market player and we will demonstarte just that if given the oppurtiunty. The events of 9/11 contibuted to the demiss of the company due to the fact we were in a Capitol improvemnt mode. We were expanding and building and we unprepared for what took place on that day, as were many other companies. US Airlines were bailed out with loans but that doesn't seem so far fetched.

We are no different and shouldn't be considered any less than the airlines. After all the only product we produce is aircraft, if airlines can't buy the product due to the events of 9/11 and reduced flying by the general public who fault is that? Our company needs assistance to get through these tough times.

Embraer and Bombardier too had difficulty however their situation was somewhat different and more able to coap with such disaster. Bombardier and Embraer have made well over 5000 frames each compared to our measly 800 frames total from all projects. Bombardier has a diverse portfolio of other interests other than aircraft and Embraer with cheap labor and wide government assisatnce.

I am not asking for compassion for FD just a realistic outlook about what got us here in the first place. Had the events of 9/11 not happened we would have been well on our way to a greater succses. If you had any idea the amount of frames we were going to sell before the events that cancelled you would understand.

To compound this, the weakend state prevented us from financing aircraft to customers, which Embraer quickly jumped on offering cut rate deals they will never make any money on. I hope for the sake of Embraer Brazil never goes into hyper inflation as history has shown can happen.

Be patient and consider 4000+ jobs, including mine, rest on a partner being found. I have a vested interest in this company and standby our goal to domiante the future 70/90/100 seat market.

TechRep


User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1582 times:

Wishful thinking on many folks part....but look at the market. Embraer and Bombardier have very successful products.....what possible reason would airline operators need a third commuter jet type. Yes, it is a very nice aeroplane...but just look at the competition. FD is a "make work" project supported (?) by the German government, nothing more or less....and these projects generally fail in the long run. The large aircraft market has two major players....why should the commuter market be any different?
Answers on a postcard.


User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 36
Reply 18, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1576 times:

For reasons I don´t see you are really ignoring facts.

Lufthansa, CSA, Sol Air and others seem to think that the Embraer 170/195 and CRJ700/900 do not provide what they consider best and have placed orders for 100+ frames. Or am I wrong on this one?

And you ignore again that at the time the FD728 was launched there were TWO projects, the FD728 and the CRJ700, Embraer entered later. Following your logic THEY never should have started development of their product.

Wake up!

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineAirways From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 880 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1545 times:

Woudln't it be possible that a possible buyer is only interested in the licences and all the rights of the new aircraft family?

Once the company is bancrupt and there is no buyer for the whole company, it has to be sold in parts. During that process, a buyer could come up and buy out all the rights (incl. prototypes, spare parts, assembling tools etc.) on the newly developed planes?

Of course, that is not a good solution, the assebly line would be transfered to another factory. The jobs would be lost and a lot of knowledge from the former staff too.

To say it clear, I hope this is not going to happen, I really hope that there is a solution for the staff and the products!

But after all: What do you think, whould such a bad solution could be possible? Would be kind of worst case for the staff and Germany...

Michael
http://airways.ch


User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

I doubt the German gov't would allow the company to be dismantled. They did not guarantee 100million for someone to profit from selling off the pieces. Companies, investors, and governments learned all about this in the 80's. Hardly anybody wins but the initial buyer.

I do, however, feel a portion of this quick fix was to keep airbus components in production. Any failure to deliver would impede their commitments made to customers. The division that makes those components I think would likely be sold to a different investor--or spun off. This may particularly true if Boeing were the primary investor (although EADS Spain does makes parts for Boeing--which is strange).

As much as I like the 328JET (not EVERY sale can go to the EMB135), I don't think it will survive. It's pretty much an orphan without a bigger brother.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21495 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1491 times:

Greg: (although EADS Spain does makes parts for Boeing--which is strange).

As far as I know, one of Boeing´s subsidiaries, in turn, has gained a manufacturing contract for A380 parts. Given the size and complexity of both players, things like this had to happen at some point.


User currently offlineF4N From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1467 times:

To all:

I would have to believe that an organization (be it Boeing or anyone else) would undoubtedly buy into FD for what it is, a manufacturer of RJ's, and with the intention of competing in the RJ market and NOT to sell off the various components at some type of corporate auction. The only possible exception might be another RJ maker, which might buy simply to eliminate a competitor. However, I think that possibility is remote since the implications for trade issues, contractual difficulties and political intervention to prevent such an option would be substantial.
I still think Boeing has to be very interested. Boeing must realize that they need to have a family of offerings at the smaller end of the a/c market and that the cost of developing the 717 in relation to its' potential success may be prohibitive. Perhaps it would be more cost effective to purchase or partner with an established firm with a viable product line and business model, especially considering Boeing's poor track record at this end of the commercial aviation business spectrum.
I'm not sure whether the component manufacture segment would have any impact on anything. As Klaus mentioned, the manufacture of components is such a globalized business that invariably, some firms will cross-produce for A and B. I believe that BAE works with both firms in one way or another.

Best regards,

F4N


User currently offlineF111 From Australia, joined Dec 2000, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1445 times:

From the start I would like to say that Dornier do make a good product, but they have always had problems with their costs (always more than the oposition) and the timming of their release (always behind the oposition).
When they released the D228 it was the last of the 18-19 seat aircraft to hit the market. It was designed to replace the twin otter and the Bandit. However because of it's late entry into the market most of the airlines operating the former aircraft were ready to move onto larger 30 seat aircraft or made the move the the 1900 or J31. The D228 was/is a good aircraft, it can carry 19 pax and their bags do 200-215 KTAS and has great field performance, but it arrived to late. It also turned out to be very expansive to purchase and maintain. In my case the company I worked for were looking at replacing their fleet of 3 E110 aircraft. The D228 was perfect for us, until will looked at the costs. Doriner would not sell one for less than $2 mil USD (which for us was $4 mill AUD) and after talking to companies that had operated them they said parts were expansive and Dornier lacked support. We continued to look at purchasing D228's from other places and found 3 low time aircraft in Japan. The company there would see each for between $600000 -$800000 USD. We were keen on these aircraft however they required some mods to meet the OZ certifiaction. We contacted Dornier and they were not very helpful. The still wanted us to purchase the aircraft from them. They said they had the exMBA aircraft from PNG for sale. We said we were keen and would be happy to take them direct from PNG fly them to OZ (a 2 hour flight). Dornier said no, they must fly the aircrraft back to Germany, refurbish them (add more cost) and then sell them. In the end we gave up and purcahsed 3 more Bandits for less than half the cost of 1 D228. Now Dornier have many 228's seating around not flying.

Now if we look at the D328TP, a great aircraft, fast, and good field perforamce, but once again it arrived to late and it is the most expensive of all the 30-36 aircraft and burns the most fuel per hour. So again it hit the market to late and Doriner out priced themselfs. I think at last count they had only built 130.

And then the 328Jet arrived, this time they got it right. the cheapest of the the RJ's (12 mUSD) it hit the market at the right time. Dornier had pland for the 44 seat aircraft the 428 which would be priced between $14-15 mil USD) which was a great price. Those who purchased the 328Jet had the chance to upgrade the the larger aircraft. There were many operators in OZ who were keen on the 428 including the airline I work for now and Impulse. Skways in the US order them, so want did Dornier do they cancelled it. Skyways orders the ERJ and Dornier loses the chance to pick up any orders from OZ. I have flown on the 328Jet, its a great aircraft and it could have done with a big brother.

And now the 728 is here, it's a great price, it has the chance to be good aircraft and popular with passengers, but once again it will arrive last on the scene, 8-12 months behind the E170 family.

Professional Pilot has a Regional product support survey they run every year. This is how FD rated;

1999 there were 9 companies, FD were number 8, Bombardier was 1, Saab 2 and Embraer 6.

2000 there were 9 again, with FD number 7, Cessna 1, Bombardier 2, Saab 3 and Embraer 4.

2001 there were 8 companies, FD 6, Bombardier 1, Saab 2, ATR 3 and Embraer 4.

So in the last 3 years FD has been at the bottom of the survey, not a good place to be when you want new customers.

Some of the comments about FD in this survey were;
"FD's 328Jet manuals are full of mistakes, they have references to the 328 turboprop".

"Our 328Jets were delivered with AFM's. When we placed the AFM in the holder, the holder broke. You didn't need a PhD to see that the AFM was bigger than the holder. FD denied that this was even a problem. We were told there is no service history to show that this has been a problem. When I visited Germany recently, I challeged them to put the AFM into the holder. They could not do it. If FD can't solve such an elementary problem, how will they go with more complex problems"

"I have been told by put maintenance dept that parts are costly"


User currently offlineTechRep From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1429 times:

F111, all your observations are perfectly correct and very astute. F/D was been lacking in Customer Support that’s why the Global Support Team was constructed, with the intention and goal, to provide unmatched world class customer support. F/D is committed to Customer Support that's why after all the lay-offs in the USA; customer support still survives quite healthy to provide 24/7 Field and Technical Support capabilities.

We are very aware of this and other ranking systems, in fact we placed last one year behind two defunct companies. To correct the publication mistakes is my job and its a large job at that, we set goals for ourselves to find such mistakes in all technical and flight manuals. In fact our team has integrated what is called a Publication Change Request (PCR) so customers and field teams can forward them to our office for quick integration.

I like to think positive but not to the point of losing touch with reality but we are improving. We are making every attempt to improve the organization at least from a customer support standpoint. I love this organization and I am committed to our customers to the end if it should happen. I can't say I have every loved a job more and look forward to coming to work everyday.

Now enough ass kissing the company, we have been late to market every time but with a superior product, I can't discount that. I feel with the $11BN in orders and 80 frame break even, profit potential is keen. Will we succeed? Will the aircraft ever see the blue skies? I say yes but what company as potential owner/partner? I have no idea.

I thank you for a valued post getting right to the point with surgical detail, no name calling and childlike antics akin to this forum daily. In fact, I will cut and paste the posting for the review of our Customer Support Teams and Engineering Department so that they might better understand the reputation we hold in the business. I can assure you however I work hard to achieve our goal of providing world-class customer support 24/7.

TechRep



User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 36
Reply 25, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1412 times:

I think the man problem of the Do 228 was that the bird was never actually planned. Back in the late 70ties Dornier developed the TNT (Tragflügel Neuer Technologie or Wing with New Technology) but had ne use for it. Thus they took the Do28/128, streched it and used the new wing. I think the biggest mistake was that they didn´t incorporate a pressurized cabin.

The Do 328 clearly came too late and the company hestitated too long with a derivate - I think at that time a Dornier 528, a 50-seat strech would have had quite some chances. And later it would have been a relatively simple conversion to a 528JET, similar to the 328JET. IMO a big, missed chance.

TechRep, to what product is your break-even figure refering? The 328JET?

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
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