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User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5789 posts, RR: 15
Posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1888 times:

A little more media background from today's Long Beach newspaper about the interest developing in LGB.

http://www.ptconnect.com/archive/business/0402/08/biz02.asp

Airlines' interest in L.B. surges By Felix Sanchez Staff writer

LONG BEACH - Clyde M. Spencer has lived in the same house several blocks from Long Beach Airport for going on four decades.

The 78-year-old Long Beach native, who worked for the city's utilities department all his adult life, doesn't have much in the bank, but he knew if there was something he could leave his children it was his two-story house on Faust Avenue.

"And what's going to happen? There are going to be airplanes flying over their house day and night. Great," Spencer sighed.

Spencer's increasing concern is over a recent surge of interest by at least two major commercial airlines in establishing new daily flights out of Long Beach Airport.
Spencer remembers the long battle between residents, airlines and the city from the early 1980s until the 1990s over just how many daily flights should be allowed, and at what times.

But a possible court battle again looms as American Airlines has made thinly veiled threats to sue the city over how it's managing the 41 daily flight slots imposed on the airport after a federal settlement of the litigation.

Last month American made a strong suggestion that the airport provide it with four permanent daily flight spots even though all 41 existing slots are already parceled out, including 27 to fast-growing commercial carrier JetBlue Airways.

And before city officials could digest American's demands, Alaska Airlines jumped into the mix, asking for three permanent daily flight slots so it could start service to and from Seattle.

Why the sudden interest in Long Beach Airport, a facility that prior to JetBlue's arrival last summer had seen its share of smaller, upstart airliners come and go, and had been consistently rejected by larger carriers when the 27 slots were sitting unused? "Long Beach has always been a yo-yo airport. Up and down, up and down," said Mike Boyd, an airline industry analyst with the Boyd Co. in Denver.

"The problem recently with Long Beach is the curfew issue. Flying into Long Beach is like operating on a Jewish holiday. The sun goes down and traffic stops," Boyd said.

"For that reason airlines come and go."

But some other factors are now stirring interest.

¼‚The Orange County public vote against an airport at the former El Toro Marine Base has Southern California Regional Airport Authority planners scrambling to track how existing facilities from San Diego to the San Fernando Valley and to the high desert will be able to handle the surge of airline passengers over the next two decades.

¼‚JetBlue's success with its no-frills, non-stop, low-fare service from Long Beach to New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport, and planned expansion in the next few weeks to Washington, D.C., has caught the eye of competitors. Part of the success is tied to the airport's accessibility and convenience, compared to Los Angeles International Airport.

¼‚And, finally, on Jan. 1, a term of the federal settlement expired that had prevented airlines from being able to sue the city or contest the ordinance that imposed the 41 daily flight cap and noise requirements.

"Long Beach, Ontario, even Bakersfield airports are going to become more important as alternatives," Boyd said about the impact of the El Toro defeat.

Stephen Levy, with the Center for the Continuing Study of the California Economy in Palo Alto, said that the way planners deal with that issue will have a dramatic impact on the Southern California economy and on jobs.
The friction will come as the demand for more airport capacity clashes with the demands of residents for fewer flights and less noise.

"That is the trade off," Levy said.

"The local community doesn't want a lot of air traffic flying out there," Boyd said.

"You can bet your boots 41 won't satisfy these airlines. They want their share," Spencer said. "The noise as it is right now, especially with these new planes, is not bad. I can live with that. But I can't live with this being a full-blown airport. You can't have both."

Boyd said Long Beach's best bet is to work within the community standards.

"If those rules make sense to the community. The community is part of the airport's infrastructure. I think the airports should conform to the community, not the other way around. Otherwise, get to know your legal department really well," Boyd said.

Long Beach City Attorney Robert Shannon said the only way to increase the number of daily flights to more than 41 would be a vote by the City Council to change the ordinance. Or a court order.

"There are no slots available, no permanent slots. It is our position that we have the absolute right to cap at 41 flights. And I get no sense that anywhere near a majority of the City Council would be inclined to consider" increasing the number, Shannon said.
And as for a legal challenge, "Our position is that the ordinance is legal and was blessed by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals," Shannon said.

American Airlines executives say the airport is limiting competition by allowing JetBlue Airways to reserve 27 flight slots for two years. JetBlue pays $5,000 a slot every 90 days to keep the rights to the positions until it begins to use them.

JetBlue CEO David Neeleman maintains that the airline will have 10 daily flights at Long Beach Airport by the end of this year, and all 27 daily flights operating by the spring of next year.

American says if the flight slots aren't being used, they should be available to whomever wants them. American wants to start flights to Chicago and New York on June 15. Alaska's service is slated to begin in September.
Besides American and JetBlue, others holding the remainder of the 41 daily flight slots are America West, FedEx, Airborne Express and UPS.

"JetBlue was the only airline that stepped up to the plate and agreed to take the slots. At the time they came forward there was nobody else, and believe me, it was not because we didn't try," Shannon said.
American Airlines had a history of turning down requests and recruiting efforts by the city to fill the slots, Shannon said.

Boyd said American, which began operations in 1983 but pulled out for nearly three years in mid-1994, is reacting like any other major airline that sees a competitor having success.

"Airlines are lemmings. They see one go, they want to go, too," Boyd said. Speculation that American and Alaska are out to put JetBlue out of business is misguided, Boyd said.

"American has been there in the past. So has Alaska. So for them wanting to go back in is not prima facie evidence of them preying on JetBlue," Boyd said.
Airport spokeswoman Sharon Diggs-Jackson said the airport had taken a "very aggressive" approach to recruiting potential airliners to take empty slots since Winair went out of business at the airport in late 1999. But recruiting has been going on since the early 1990s, when total flights dropped from a high of 41 in 1990 to 16 in 1993.

In one instance, Aloha Airlines was heavily pitched by the airport, with detailed presentations on marketing programs, terminal accommodations and routes, but in the end chose to fly out of John Wayne Airport in Orange County.

"They usually came back and say `no', it's a business decision," Diggs-Jackson said.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLGB Photos From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1726 times:

You know I have to say that Sharon is lying about LGB going out and making pitches to airlines to come to LGB. They never did that, they sat back and waited figuring that someone would come, but no one did until jetBlue. They could care less if there were 41 flights or 14. The less complaints they hear, the better chance they all feel they have of being re-elected since most of them are council people. Arrgggg it bugs me.....

User currently offlinePlaneguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 330 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1702 times:

I hope we do add more flights into LGB, the complainers in Bixby Knolls can sell there homes and move to a nice quite nieghborhood in El Toro, and we can have some nice park land in North Long Beach.

LGBGUY


User currently offlineLGB Photos From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 1673 times:

I could not agree with you more. Let the sound of airliners be heard taking off and landing at LGB more often in the future. The people in Bixby Knolls are cry babies anyways, they only want the airport there when it is convenient for them.

User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3811 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 1675 times:

Here's some recent letters to the eitor from various sources. The first is from the Los Angeles Times:

The Plane Truth at Long Beach Airport

Re "Airlines Fight for Space at Long Beach Airport," April 2: As an air traffic controller at Long Beach Airport, I was stunned to discover your reporters twice describing the airport as "tiny."

In 2001, Long Beach Airport was ranked 30th in the country in total air traffic with more than 737,000 operations, which turns out to be more traffic than some of the other "tiny" airports, such as Honolulu International and JFK.

Tiny Long Beach has five runways, one a 10,000-foot runway (longer than any runway at Orange County, Burbank or Van Nuys) that handles the heavy cargo jets of the UPS, FedEx and Airborne Express facilities based here.

Tiny Long Beach is a major aircraft manufacturing facility, the home of every Air Force C-17 ever built. The former McDonnell Douglas factory, now owned by Boeing, is still building the C-17 and is still delivering the new B-717 passenger jet. The Boeing facility is the largest employer in the city of Long Beach.

The tiny airport houses major West Coast maintenance facilities for Gulfstream and Cessna Citation business jets. Tiny Long Beach is a favorite destination for dozens of private jets that load and offload big league sports teams and movie stars at two, huge fixed-base operators. Tiny Long Beach Airport is home to over 500 general aviation aircraft and the dozens of businesses that support and maintain them.

Tiny it ain't.

Paul Thomas
Long Beach
I work over at Long Beach Airport (LGB) and have to say that what is stated [in the editorial] is incorrect in my view. People who fly through LGB or fly from LGB always are asking if anyone goes to Seattle, Chicago, Las Vegas, and Fort Lauderdale from LGB.

I have to ask what the author of this editorial means by "American Airlines has given us fair warning. They are prepared to crash their planes into our city's Airport noise ordinance." I mean almost all of the flights will have aircraft that can easily beat the noise limits. If this isn't about four flights then what is it about?

Four flights would bring money in, wouldn't they? Why would property values fall? I also highly doubt that freeways will become jammed by the new flights. We are not talking about making LGB into another LAX. People cannot even begin to understand how much money the airport brings in for the city in landing fees, gate fees, terminal and office fees.

It seems to me that people in Long Beach, especially those in Bixby Knolls, want flights only when it is convenient for them. Otherwise it is worthless to them and they hate the airport. I say bring more flights to Long Beach and let the cry babies move somewhere else.

Stephen Tornblom
Proud Aviation Employee and Enthusiest [sic]
April 1, 2002

Some from the Long Beach Press Telegram:

Nobody should be surprised that American Airlines has threatened legal action if it's not allocated four additional flight slots at Long Beach Airport.

JetBlue's success at LGB has got a lot of people's attention. Anyone who knows the airline industry knows what American's real intentions are - to drive JetBlue out of Long Beach. By flying the same route using bigger planes, American is flooding the market with capacity, making the route unprofitable for JetBlue by lowering load factors. JetBlue has only used six of its 27 flight slots at Long Beach for one reason - they don't have enough planes.

American has over 500 planes at its disposal. JetBlue has 24 at last count, with more coming, but one plane a month isn't going to stop American. If it comes to a lawsuit, American will likely win, forcing either Long Beach Airport to allow more flights or force JetBlue to give up slots it's currently not using. And Long Beach isn't the only JetBlue/American battleground. The same thing is going on at New York/JFK and at Oakland.

Thanks to JetBlue's success Long Beach Airport is undergoing a long-overdue renovation. But by giving JetBlue exclusive rights to the remaining flight slots Long Beach city officials have opened the door for litigation, and with LAX and John Wayne Airport in Orange County at capacity, Long Beach residents better get ready for more flights out of LGB.

Brian Rhoan
Huntington Beach

And:

This letter is in response to your article "LGB could renew glory" (March 18). I first came to Long Beach in 1952 as a crewman of a Naval ship and have resided here since 1956.

My first flight out of the Long Beach Airport in the 1950s was on Bonanza Airlines. Later I flew with Air West, Jet America, Western Airlines (none were listed in your article) as well as others. I have always felt (as a taxpayer) that in the Long Beach airport, we have an underutilized income-generating asset that could better bring jobs and tax income to Long Beach. (I realize we have runway and terminal limitations, which restrain the options.)

Lately JetBlue is offered as our salvation. I hope this is true. American Airlines and America West have served us well for many years while others have come and gone. I fly American because of their leg room and service. I checked out JetBlue's aircraft at their open house and found their leg room lacking. If I were flying to NYC, I would go American via Dallas for the comfort. This is not to say anything against JetBlue. When their IPO comes out, I will probably buy some stock if it is available. I believe they have a good operation. It's just that for me, it's not my choice.

Let us not get all our options tied to one airline. We need competition and some loyalty to airlines that have served us well in the past.

Hugh J. K. McHugh
Long Beach

Well, you get the idea. If LGB does lift slot restrictions, it may very well work out for jetBlue in the end. Their current slots would really be of no value and they could possible get a refund on the monies they paid to secure those slots.

Also, in the end, they might not be limited to just 27 flights a day and if the slots do go away, they won't be under so much pressure to use up the ones they have right now by next spring and they could concentrate on using the ones up at JFK.

LoneStarMike

User currently offlineN509JB From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 1671 times:

I've flown AA many times. Honestly, putting my bias aside, I'd say we have just as much leg room as AA.

Thats beside the point tho.

AA is gonna dump capacity, and use every trick in the book to try and run us out of LGB. You know its gonna happen. Dont let them fool you, they aint interested competition. If they were, where is Legend and SunJet? Why isnt Vanguard at DFW? Did it suprise anyone that LGB-JFK was one of their first routes? Funny how they react when the shoe is on the other foot. They want us to give them our slots, in effect, pave the way for them to try and bully us out of LGB. Hyopthetically, if they do, they will abandon LGB faster then a dot com stock. Then they'll say "well the market doesnt support us anymore" What they're really saying: "We've run the "competition" we wanted so bad out of the airport, so our job here is done. We have no reason to keep flying these routes at a loss".

Yea, I'm biased. But how many times has this happened in the past? Problem is tho, in coach, our product is better. So game on...

B


User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3811 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (12 years 3 months 6 hours ago) and read 1626 times:

An update in today's Long Beach Press-Telegram:

American to fly in interim airport slots
04/16/2002

http://www.ptconnect.com/archive/news/0402/16/new02.asp

I wonder if Alaska air will also use nterim airport slots to operate its proposed LGB-SEA service.

LoneStarMike

User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5789 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (12 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 1614 times:

Mike,

I was just getting ready to post the link also. I guess I'm going to have to start getting up earlier to beat you to these posts.  Big grin

BTW, here's a link I haven't seen before about the terminal expansion.
http://www.gazettes.com/story16.html




"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 1610 times:

Actually I think AA is wise to take the temporary slots. AA has already tried service to ORD from LGB, and cut it. JetBlue is providing a superior product to JFK (based on most measures). Why spend a lot of money on a protracted legal battle to obtain slots you may not keep? This gives AA some time to test the new service and see if it flies (pardon the pun).

User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3811 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (12 years 3 months 1 hour ago) and read 1589 times:

Why spend a lot of money on a protracted legal battle to obtain slots you may not keep? This gives AA some time to test the new service and see if it flies.

I don't think AA is concerned whether or not their new service is successful, I think it's a question of them justing wanting to siphon enough traffic away from jetBlue to dilute jetBlue's yields.

When they competed with Legend at DAL Love Field, there were reports in the paper that AA was calling their "best customers" booked out of DFW and asking them if they's like to switch to the Love Field flights. In some cases AA was even paying the passener's cab fare from DFW to DAL. In spite of all this, I don't think AA's flights out of DAL were ever profitable, but it had the desired effect of siphoning away traffic that might have otherwise flown Legend.

I think as long as jetBlue is at LGB, AA will want to compete with them simply to take away some of their traffic.

My thought is that AA feels that jetBlue won't be able to use up all their slots at LGB before next spring, while at the same time using up their remaining 42 slots at JFK by nex February. The question is, will jetBlue sacrifice some of their slots at LGB at the expense of building up JFK, or will they sacrifice some of their slots at JFK at the expense of building up LGB? JetBlue still has to use 20 more slots at LGB before they would need the temporary ones that AA is using. In the meantime, AA can go ahead an operate its new service and take some potential traffic away from jetBlue and hope that either jetBlue fails financially (not likely) or winds up not being able to use their slots before their deadline, in which case jetBlue would have to forfeit their remaining unsued slots. If that happens, they will be no need for a protracted legal battle on AA's part, they can just apply for the slots jetBlue isn't able to use in time.

Since jetBlue already flies LGB-JFK, I'm sure AA will match their fares, but it will be interesting to see what AA charges for the LGB-ORD flights as jetBlue is not yet a competitor on that route.

FatFlyer you'll have to get up really early to beat me. I have the advantage of it being two hours later where I live  Smile

LoneStarMike

User currently offlineRlwynn From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 1075 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (12 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1566 times:

At least the same legroom as American? No way.


I can drive faster than you
User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (12 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1556 times:

LoneStarMike:

"Siphoning off jetBlue's customers."

Let's think about this for a moment. Are you really thinking that the people now flying out of LGB simply opted not to fly when there wasn't service at LGB?

The truth is, you've got it backwards. jetBlue is the one siphoning off American customers who were already flying out of the region from LAX. So now, American is simply attempting to hang on to as many customers as possible by offering service at LGB.

The belief in "we'll pull customers from other airlines and they won't do anything about it" is financial mumbo-jumbo and the real reason that so many startups fail.

If I'm an AA stockholder, believe me, I want AA in their defending their marketshare, and not just letting every little startup grab a chunk at my expense! And that's American's commitment, to the stockholders, who are the investors in American Airlines.

Steve


User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (12 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1548 times:

Theoretically, if an AA customer has defected to jetBlue in LGB, he/she is not likely to go back to AA even if AA moves into Long Beach. Why would they? They obviously don't care about the frequent flyer miles (or they wouldn't have switched in the first place).

For the same price to NYC, I'm willing to bet that jetBlue will be able to hold on to the customers that have already defected from AA. Just because AA is starting service from LGB does NOT mean customers will come flocking back.

(And personally I feel jetBlue has CREATED a market rather than STOLEN a market).


User currently offlineAirDD From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 375 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (12 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1545 times:


Goverment authorities should make sure not the same thing happens like in DAL with Legend.

AA offered a service similar to Legend and then pulled out off DAL when Legend went under.

For sure AA wasn't making any profit in DAL and just killed Legend


User currently offline777D From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 300 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (12 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1540 times:

I personally hope that Jetblue gives AMR headaches at LGB and JFK. Competition is a great thing. If AMR wants more customers, then go into ATL and start international service from ATL or SFO and ramp up there operations. Why LGB? The most logical answer is Jetblue has created or some might believe stolen business from AMR. I would support AMR if they offered competition from DEN, MSP, SEA, ATL, LAX and etc. against their rivals. But little Jetblue is the one they are after!! Jetblue must be doing something that is causing a problem for AMR.

So why doesn't AMR go into SFO increase their operations 300%, compete with Alaska, UAL and WN for customers up and down the west coast?


User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3811 posts, RR: 34
Reply 15, posted (12 years 2 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1513 times:

An updated article from the LBreport.com website:

American Airlines Accepts Four Revocable Flight Slots, Warns of Possible Litigation And Pursues Administrative Appeal That Could Confront Council With Protecting or Abandoning LB's 41 Flight Cap

We post AA and LB exchange of
correspondence verbatim
-4/19/2002

http://www.lbreport.com/news/apr02/aalb3.htm

Not much new, but it does describe the procedure that AA will will go through regarding their hearing, and also contains copies of the last 4 letters between LGB and AA in .pdf format, (which unfortunately, my browser is unable to read)  Sad

LoneStarMike

User currently offlineJeff G From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 436 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (12 years 2 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1484 times:

LoneStarMike,

You said:
also contains copies of the last 4 letters between LGB and AA in .pdf format, (which unfortunately, my browser is unable to read)

Well, I certainly don't want you to miss any nuance of this developing drama, so go here (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html) to get the plugin to read .pdf files. Bon appetit. Big grin



User currently offlineAluminumShower From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 2 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1472 times:

AirDD,

AA actually stayed in the DAL market even after Legend was gone. They only exited the market after September 11....


User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3811 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (12 years 2 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1454 times:

Jeff G:

Well, I certainly don't want you to miss any nuance of this developing drama, so go here (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html) to get the plugin to read .pdf files. Bon appetit.

Well thanks for your concern and helpfulness, but unfortunately I access the internet with a WebTV, which does not have the capability to download programs or use plugins. I normally just use this URL Converter

http://wheel.compose.cs.cmu.edu:8001/cgi-bin/browse/objweb

but for some reason it won't convert these particular files for me. It just tells me "Unable to determine file type."

Maybe someday, if I win the lottery, I can upgrade and get a "real"computer. Big grin

LoneStarMike

User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3811 posts, RR: 34
Reply 19, posted (12 years 2 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1448 times:

Sllevin-

"Let's think about this for a moment. Are you really thinking that the people now flying out of LGB simply opted not to fly when there wasn't service at LGB?"

No, I'm thinking that the people now flying out of LGB simply opted not to fly out of the region due to outrageous pricing, unless, of course, they were traveling on the company's dime.

LoneStarMike

User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4487 posts, RR: 33
Reply 20, posted (12 years 2 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1428 times:

The truth is, you've got it backwards. jetBlue is the one siphoning off American customers who were already flying out of the region from LAX. So now, American is simply attempting to hang on to as many customers as possible by offering service at LGB.

No, Steve, *you've* got it backwards. American charges high fares at LAX, BUR, and SNA (unless WN happens to hold them accountable on a given route). JetBlue is creating a new market at LGB with their low fares. And if a few AA pax from LAX decide maybe they want to pay hundreds of dollars less and go on JetBlue from LGB, that's AA's problem.

JetBlue's cost per seat mile is 6.9 cents. American's is 11.4 That's the real reason AA wants JetBlue out of LGB (or anywhere else for that matter)--to protect their outrageous pre-deregulation cost structure. JetBlue represents true capitalism--a better product offered for lower cost. AA is an established dinosaur trying to protect an old order that is harmful to consumers.

If I'm an AA stockholder, believe me, I want AA in their defending their marketshare, and not just letting every little startup grab a chunk at my expense! And that's American's commitment, to the stockholders, who are the investors in American Airlines.

AA stockholders should be demanding that American get its costs down, instead of punishing consumers by trying to destroy high-quality low-fare airlines. Right now, Southwest and JetBlue are a heck of a lot better investment than American. If AA stockholders don't like it, they can sell their AA stock and get themselves a good investment.

And if AA tries to break the law in Long Beach, by capacity dumping or predatory pricing, DOJ should ride their Cartel a** like wet underwear.

And as for Mike Boyd's idiotic comments...often he's one of the sharpest observers around on aviation. But this time he's talking out his fanny. Airlines are not "like lemmings." They are businesses which must make money. They don't fly routes unless those routes in some manner serve the airline's bottom line.

AA has been able to make good yields on the DFW route from LGB, or they wouldn't have flown it all these years. They have pulled out of other LGB routes. AA wants to expand at LGB for one reason--to drive out lower-cost JetBlue. Boyd should know better.

Jim



User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3811 posts, RR: 34
Reply 21, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1398 times:

Update from today's Long Beach Press-Telegram:

City plans hearings on airport
04/26/2002

http://www.presstelegram.com/archive/business/0402/26/biz01.asp

LoneStarMike

User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1380 times:

DCA-ROC: I've got to disagree with you here.

American is asking for 4 slots. Even if they went to 8 slots, jetBlue would still have more capacity than AA at LGB. If jetBlue isn't accounting for competition and feels that it can only sucessfully expand into LGB if it is shielded from competition at that airport, well, then, their business plan is flawed.

This whole concept of "We have to protect jetBlue" is silly. Protect them from what? Having their service and fares matched? And how exactly is that bad?

And again, you'll never convince me that there's a 'new market' being created. Virtually everyone that jetBlue gets to fly out of LGB would fly out of LAX if they didn't have an option. jetBlue wants to pull customers from LAX back to LGB, that's fine, but it's not creating a new market.

Finally, as I mentioned, my other concern is the precendent of 'slot locking.' There's no good to come out of that path. For someone who speaks of 'The Cartel' and the implied conspiracies, you seem to miss the fact that 'slot locking' is perhaps the ultimate anti-competitive move.

Steve


User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3811 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1379 times:

And again, you'll never convince me that there's a 'new market' being created. Virtually everyone that jetBlue gets to fly out of LGB would fly out of LAX if they didn't have an option. jetBlue wants to pull customers from LAX back to LGB, that's fine, but it's not creating a new market.

You have GOT to be kidding me. Have you never heard of the "Southwest Effect?" It's been proven time and time again that every time Southwest enters a new market, they cause the other carriers to lower their prices and this causes more passengers to fly. Anything that causes more passengers to fly is creating a new market.

Remember when Southwest started flying into ISP? At that time AA had a few mainline lights ISP-ORD. Once Southwest came in and forced AA to lower their prices to compete, AA's load factor went way up. Unfortunately, AA was not able to make a PROFIT charging lower fares, and as a result they pulled out of the market. ISP's traffic has increased so much that Southwest is bulding a new 4 gate concourse. If that's not creating a new market, then I don't know what is.

JetBlue is trying to do the same thing at LGB.

LoneStarMike

User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (12 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1367 times:

Mike: Good points except that:

LAX is closer to LGB that ISP is to JFK/LGA/EWR.

And Southwest already flies into LAX.

All of which circles back to the same point:

If AA can't compete at LGB, then what's the problem? Why does jetBlue need to be able to lock out competition?

Southwest has flourished without needing to lock out competition, why is it that jetBlue cannot do the same thing?

Steve


25 LoneStarMike : Mike: Good points except that: LAX is closer to LGB that ISP is to JFK/LGA/EWR.It doesn't matter if LGB is closer to LAX than ISP is to JFK/LGA/EWR. T
26 LoneStarMike : One other point that I failed to make (because I had already forgotten about).You posted to DCA-ROCguy:Finally, as I mentioned, my other concern is th
27 Sllevin : Mike: The AA/BA issue also involved immunity from anti-trust (i.e., immunity from being accused of price-fixing). It's an entirely different issue tha
28 LoneStarMike : But Sllevin, the fact remains that AA didn't get what it wanted (anti-trust immunity) because it was unwilling to give up some of it's slots so other
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