Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12168 posts, RR: 35 Posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2178 times:
Delta Airlines, a 17 year veteran of Irish operations, is apparently to pull out of Ireland at the end of the Summer season, if the Irish government continues to insist on the 50/50 rule by which one flight must fly direct from SNN for every direct flight from DUB. DUB has a population/catchment area of 1-1.5m. SNN has a catchment of about 150k, tops and not much in the way of business traffic.
However, with an Irish election imminent, the gov't is naturally keen to keep the western electorate sweet and then, after the election, to dump the stopover; right now, they are insistent that the stopover stays in place, although in the current economic environment, one can't blame DL. DL has been very quiet about the report, although has frequently voiced its annoyance; not only is the cost of flying a 777 between SNN and DUB high from a crew/maintenance/fuel cost viewpoint, but also the runway at DUB is really too short for a nine hour nonstop on a 777.
It's time someone slapped the Irish government across the chops and got them to wake up and smell the peanuts; they really need a dose of reality. Hopefully this will do it.
DeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8821 posts, RR: 12 Reply 4, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2006 times:
Delta is losing money having to fly to both Shannon and Dublin, and I can't blame them. It is only a 3 hour drive between the two cities by a coach bus, and 30 min flying time (this is from airport to airport, not city centre to city centre). It is quite expensive to fly a 777, MD-11 or even a 767-300 ER on this route to satisfy government demand. I think that if this rumour reaches Dublin and the new elections are called, then I would think that they would gladly end the SNN/DUB agreement, as Delta is one of only three airlines (CO and EI being the others) that are providing non-stop, scheduled service to Ireland, and the only airline connecting the Southeast U.S. with Ireland.
Mls515 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3071 posts, RR: 9 Reply 6, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 1939 times:
I think it would make sense for the Irish government to exempt the SNN stopover if the airline based a smaller aircraft in Ireland to complete the DUB-SNN leg.
For example, Delta would base a CRJ or 722 (or whatever was appropriate, how many people actually get on and off in SNN??) in Ireland. The big bird would cross the Atlantic to and from DUB. The smaller plane would operate the DUB-SNN segment of the flight. SNN passengers would get a super fast connection.
TransSwede From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 993 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 1900 times:
>I think it would make sense for the Irish government
>to exempt the SNN stopover if the airline based a
>smaller aircraft in Ireland to complete the DUB-SNN
I'm obviously not well versed in the history of this particular issue, but why the heck should the Irish Government force anyone to fly to SNN - *Period*!? Are there no domestic airlines feeding DUB from SNN?
DeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 23 Reply 9, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 1893 times:
Basing aircraft and crews in Europe for such low utilization would be a fiasco. Remember the old FRA hub that Delta inherited from Pan Am? That was a money loser if there ever was one. 4 to 6 hour daily utilization on a Boeing 727 was unacceptable, and in this case it would be even lower.
Ireland needs to can the 50/50 rule. Delta has been good to the Irish market, has shown commitment, has given DUB/SNN seasonal upgrades to the 777. If it's not a good business proposition, then the smart thing to do is to cut the losses. Not that DUB/SNN are losing money, but if they can make more money flying that 777 to FRA or ZRH or wherever, then pulling out is the smart thing to do.
The B777, MD-11, and B767 are terribly inefficient on such short flights, and I'm surprised Delta hasn't made a big deal out of this sooner.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
ChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 3918 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1712 times:
The problem with the 'big bird/little bird' scenario is that the 'big bird' really is needed SNN-DUB because that is where the traffic is mostly going: Dublin.
I have been on the Aer Lingus A330s a few times, when it is able to run nonstop Boston-Dublin (summer) and when it has to go Boston-Shannon-Dublin (winter). The traffic was largely Dublin-bound--either people getting on originally in Boston and staying on, or new people getting on in Shannon--so your 727-200 would be oversold and the flight would be very noisy for those folks on the ground who would get that early wake-up from a departing 727.
One of my more nervous moments was aboard said Aer Lingus A330 as we taxiied out at Shannon on the way to Dublin one early winter morning. We were mostly full, comprising about 50% people who got on in Boston, and the remainder who got on in Shannon using the flight as a 'local.' Anyway, we taxiied out for an INTERSECTION take-off...I'm not kidding; about one-third of the runway was behind us as we STARTED our take-off roll. Having a prime window seat, I saw all this unfold before me. In any event, there was NOT much concrete left as our A330 rotated for its rather low-level (and scenic) hop over to Dublin.
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6293 posts, RR: 25 Reply 14, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1704 times:
It's been rumored that this is the reason DL pulled the JFK-DUB-SNN flight. Loads were actually pretty good but DL did it to put pressure on the Irish gov't to change this crazy rule. It's even been rumored that DL would return to the JFK-DUB market, if this dumb rule is canned.
Donder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6659 posts, RR: 23 Reply 15, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1668 times:
One of my more nervous moments -think about how light a SNN-DUB flight would be!The 330 can fly what 6200 miles and you're going how far ?100 miles or so!There is no point climbing particularly high for a flight like that at all.And also you would choose to do a reduced thrust takeoff to save on the engines.
Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12168 posts, RR: 35 Reply 16, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1629 times:
As far as nonstops are concerned, Dublin has a problem in that its runway was limited to 8,650' when it was built and it's widely believed in Ireland that the airport authority limited it to that, to prevent flights flying nonstop; imagine, spending £30m on a runway and restricting its potential from day one.
For DL - and EI, and indeed any of the few other long haulers around, the situation is serious in that on a hot Summer's day (which, contrary to reputation, we do get!), aircraft may end up dumping pax/freight. At all times, Winter or Summer, they'd have to use pretty much max power, not being able to gain the economic advantage of derated power - only available on a normal length runway.
Bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6247 posts, RR: 9 Reply 19, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1566 times:
The reason for the required Shannon service is to support the economy of Western Ireland. The Shannon Airport is one of the biggest employers in the area.For many years Northwest used to operate to Ireland with 747's and the required Shannon stop was one of the reasons they pulled out. The biggest problem however was the lack of business traffic and the drop-off of passengers after labor day.
DCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4420 posts, RR: 35 Reply 20, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1527 times:
Good for Delta. American carriers are NOT welfare programs for Western Ireland. The airline business has a thin profit margin as it is. Who in hell are the Irish to demand that foreign carriers be hostages to their socialistic economic policy?
It's always amazed me that any US carrier has tolerated that policy. The fact that any US carrier *is* serving Ireland anyway, is evidence of the strength of the market. AA or UA might even try to enter if all they had to do was land at DUB.
Bethune and Mullin ought to do a joint fly-by mooning of the Irish parliament from a 777.
The 50-50 rule was instituted, according to Aviation Week, because Aer Lingus told the Irish gov't that if the 100 percent-stopping-in-SNN rule were continued, they couldn't afford to replace their 747-100's. The 50-50 rule was instituted and Aer Lingus bought its A330's.
As DUB....does land exist to lengthen the main runway to a decent length? Even if a 777 can reach the US East coast fully loaded from DUB, 8650' is still awfully short for safety purposes.
Crosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2592 posts, RR: 59 Reply 23, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1461 times:
Spare us the bleeding hearts for Delta and Continental
Yes, the Shannon stoppover rule is ridiculous, and is a relic from an long-gone era but nobody is forcing US carriers to fly to Eire. If they choose to do so they are bound by the same rules as everyone else operating Trans-Atlantic routes from Ireland whatever the Nationality the airline is.
The carrier most affected by this is Aer Lingus where the rule affects 100% of their long-haul operation.
As to your amazement that US carreirs "tolerate" this policy, the rule was in force long before Delta and Continental flew to Ireland. When they applied for licences to serve Ireland, they knew their flights would have to operate in line with the Shannon rules, and they commenced service under those rules.
This is all political and as it appears that retaining the rule could help win an election, then it will stay, however much airlines moan or even withdraw services.
Again. I'm not saying I agree with the rule at all, I don't - but the "outcry" at what Delta is being subjected to by the cruel Irish Gov't is a bit OTT, now if Aer Lingus were allowed to fly non-stop and all US carriers had to stop in Shannon, then I could understand it!
Airzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1148 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1418 times:
For the record, there is definately a market for passengers originating in Western Ireland. Unfortunatly is a seasonal service. CO flies a dedicated nonstop in the summer time since many Irish come to the States every summer to work in the Hamptons, in theme parks in Virginia and Jersey, lifeguards etc. On the flip side, many American tourists will fly into DUB and return out of SNN since driving tours are very popular.
The rule states that 50% of Transatlantic departures must go via SNN, therefore EI flies DUB-LAX,DUB-ORD, DUB-JFK as nonstops to the States and the other flights, DUB-SNN-BOS, DUB-SNN-JFK with I think alternates to and from ORD depending on the day. When they flew to BWI and EWR that help free up more DUB nonstops.
It is a mixed blessing for EI. I would bet as someone sated above that UA and AA would start flights to DUB if the rule was relaxed.
Also the SNN rule was murder for EI, but it really did work to develop more economic activity in the west of the country. Galway has benefited greatly and many manufacturing industries were moved West since the land and labor was cheaper. There is sometimes a method behind the maddness.
Why can EI fly no problem DUB-LAX with an A330-200 and DL's 777 have ranges issues to ATL? I think that is a load of crap.
25 DeltaSFO: I think we've established that DL's 777 can make the nonstop with no problems. If DL doesn't see a market to Western Ireland, they shouldn't be forced
26 Notdownnlocked: My thoughts are that the Irish government is wanting the US carriers to leave so that Aer Lingus(last I heard on the verge of bankruptcy) can have the
27 Yyz717: I agree with Notlockeddown. Aer Lingus is govt owned and although would probably like to drop some SNN flights, would not be willing to fight the govt