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Why Eurpoean Airlines Never Flown To Australia?  
User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1985 posts, RR: 25
Posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2557 times:

Hey,

I was wondering why most european airlines (I don't care about codeshares) have never flown to Australia?

Thanks!


The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVywh From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2002, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2433 times:

Does BA operate flights to Australia?

User currently offlineAamd11 From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1059 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2423 times:

Yes BA does, but not many others... there is no market for the French or germans to travel to Australia it seems... But BA has a huge market... between britain and Sydney alone there muct be a good 2000seats a day... maybe 3000 seats... then melbourne too... its amazing how many seats there are.. and when i went the plane was at capacity it seemed... amazing if you ask me..
Lauda does...
Lufthansa i dont think does..
Air France... nope.. not to my knowledge...
i dont know many.. BA and Lauda.. BA is by far the biggest Euro carrier to the region... hands down


User currently offlineFlyinghighboy From Australia, joined Aug 2001, 749 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2418 times:

KLM flew to SYD, daily I think it was as well.
Lauda and BA still fly. But look how many planes do the kangaroo route.
BA, QF, EK, SQ, Gulf Air, Malaysian, Gurauda, and some more asian carriers.


User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2392 times:

The main reason European airlines do not operate to Australia themselves is because it's not economically feasible for them to do so. The costs of having a flight that long, then having to over-night the crew (which should include 4 flight crew). The fuel load and stopovers and the fact that for most European airlines, in order to be competitive, must fly a 747 make Australian routes un-economical for European airlines. Only BA, for obvious economic, cultural, and historic reasons, operates into Australia now on a regular basis, but even they have cut back their routes from Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth, and I think Adelaide to just Sydney and Melbourne.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineDETA737 From Portugal, joined Oct 2000, 612 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2383 times:

Alitalia, JAT, KLM, Lufthansa, Olympic Airways and UTA all served Australia in the past. I believe all that's left now is British Airways. Alitalia and Olympic Airways were catering mainly to immigrant communities in Australia instead of business passangers and therefore gave up these routes. Both airlines are in financial trouble anyway so I don't see them relaunching these services anytime soon. JAT also served Australia until the early 90s I believe but don't expect them to return anytime soon. KLM and Lufthansa both pulled out recently preferring to use codeshare flights. UTA also served Australia before their merger with Air France, but I believe most flights were to and from the French colonies in the Pacific. Simpy put it is extremely expensive to fly from Europe to Australia and most airlines aren't willing to take the risk unless they can guarantee the route will be a moneymaker.

User currently offlineDocpepz From Singapore, joined May 2001, 1971 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2361 times:

But likewise, Singapore Airlines and Malaysia Airlines operate very long sectors to the USA(24 hours to New York, 18 hours to LAX) and they're profitable. So why can't European carriers do the same with Australia?

User currently offlineETA Unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

Allow me to clarify...
BA (747-400) currently flies to SYD & MEL. ADL BNE PER suspended.
Lauda (777-200) serves SYD & MEL.
Olympic (A340) serves SYD & MEL (route under the microscope).

Alitalia (747-200) suspended flights 1999.

JAT (DC-10) forced to suspend flights due to sanctions.

KLM (747-400) suspended flights 2001.

Lufthansa (747-400) suspended flights after unofficially transfering the route to subsidiary Condor (767-300) in the late 90's.

UTA (747-400 & DC-10) route authority transfered to Air France (747-400)- flights suspended later. Route taken over by AOM (DC10 then A340)- flights suspended in 2000.


User currently offlineParisien From France, joined Dec 2000, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2265 times:

Yes, many more european and american airlines used to fly to Australia....but with codesharing, all that is no more. I remember way back when (1992) I saw UTA in MEL...also BA, AZ, KL and OA. IN SYD, LH, BA, AZ, KL, OA, Aeroflot, Lauda and Air France (parked in SYD unserviced as a protest against nuclear test in the pacific) and AOM. As for American airlines, CO used to fly to MEL (and SYD ?), NW to SYD, and of course UA. DId American fly their own plane there at one point ?

thats why i dont like codesharing !


User currently offlineVywh From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2002, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2249 times:

Does BA operate direct flights from London to Australia??


User currently offlineTNboy From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 1131 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2240 times:

Yes, Parisien, AA flew to OZ on, I think, two separate occasions some years back. Both times were fairly short lived. CO kept at it for longer. United took over the Pam Am services, and Hawaiian operated to Sydney for a time.
I recall that, at one time, AA managed to get quite a bit of publicity because they had the world'st FA on board. She was well in her 60s. Don't know what the publicity achieved - maybe they were after the seniors market?
I once flew UTA Paris-Sydney and really enjoyed the flight. The FA's wore pale blue sleeveless skinny-rib sweaters. Very distracting. But, as has been said, most European carriers now codeshare. In Perth, for example, we don't see any at all, only Qantas, the Asian carriers - Singapore, Malaysian, Thai International, Royal Brunei, Cathay Pacific, all of whom flky through to Europe - and South African Airways and Air Mauritius, who also go on to Europe, and an occasional Air NZ for Perth - Auckland.
Cheers
Bill



"...every aircraft is subtly different.."
User currently offlineTNboy From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 1131 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2235 times:

Vywh - yes, but only to the eastern states. I'm sure someone from melbourne or Sydney can give you details.They connect in Singapore and Hong Kong with other flights.
Bill



"...every aircraft is subtly different.."
User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2227 times:

This is a very easy question to answer, actually.

Previously, a lot of Europan carriers (and Pan Am in the USA) flew these gigantic worldwide networks, largely for prestige and largely not making any money. For instance, even though LHR-SYD has probably always been viable, AF and LH probably never had any profitable business flying to OZ, they did it just so they could be a true worldwide airline: it was an issue of pride.

Not to be harsh, but Oz is a small country, its about the size in terms of population and economic power as the US state of Texas. For a country of 20 million on the other side of the world, Oz should be proud it has ANY European service. Look at all the medium and larger countries in S. America with only modest or no European service.

Also, to reply to an earlier post by DocPepz -- SIN acts as a regional hub for much of Asia, albeit not a very big one, which acts as a collection point for pax going on to the USA. By contrast, SYD is at most, only a hub for OZ and can pick up only Aussie traffic.

kind regards,

RogueTrader


User currently offlineBraniff place From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 1125 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2228 times:

Codesharing is just bullshit. It is the reason why we have next to no international carriers in Australia.

Once apon a time in brisbane, we had several american and european carriers. Now we have none, literally.

American Airlines served Australia for a very short time during the 1970s, but eventually cancelled the operation.

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Iam still angry about BA pulling out of Perth and Brisbane and codesharing with QF, i thought BA would have so much more commitment to australia after all Australia is so closely related to England.

I dont understand ANA either. Once they had something like 14 flights a week into BNE alone! They even had the australian services as a big highlight on their route map. And now they wont even keep their Australian offices in operation. Now that really pisses me off. I used be a very loyal customer to them. Thanks for nothing ANA.


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Continental is another one they cancelled BNE SYD and MEL in the early-mid 90s. Jeez they better hold on to that CNS service with their life! CO is a great airline and Australia needs them.

Air France, well im just happy they maintain offices all around australia.


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I just cant see why so many airlines cant make the little extra effort by flying only 7 more hours from singapore to Australia. There is a great european market here waiting to be taken

-Braniff Place


User currently offlineTNboy From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 1131 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2190 times:

Rogue Trader is almost correct. Although Oz is small in population and economic influence, it nonetheless has a enormous links to Britain and Europe, (largest Greek population outside Athens, large Italian, British populations, etc),and consequently a (relatively) large market for flights linking these destinations. However, there's no real evidence that Europeans want to fly only on their national carriers. Qantas, British Airways and the services of Asian carriers such as SQ linking through Singapore tend to cater for the majority of these passengers.
I recall flying on a Pan Am flight Sydney-Bangkok many years ago on a 707 with 11 passengers. There was more crew than pax, and there weren't even enough pax for one poor lady to get interest in a foursome for bridge. Loads improved as we travelled further towards London, but the Sydney-Bangkok link was really just a bit of flag-waving.
And why should they all fly the route unprofitably? United is the only US carrier to directly link the US with Oz, and they find it a struggle at times.
Sure, it would be great to have them all here, but I'd rather they made money on profitable routes, kept flying, and we can always join up with them somewhere else if it's really that important. After all, most flights to Europe are mostly all-nighters anyway.
Cheers
Bill



"...every aircraft is subtly different.."
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2176 times:
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BA flies to Sydney and Melbourne via Bangkok and Singapore for those who don't know this.

Arsenal@LHR



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineLMML 14/32 From Malta, joined Jan 2001, 2565 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2164 times:

Isn't there a restriction by Aussie authorities that any European airline flying to Oz must not do so non stop? Please correct me if I am wrong.

User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2163 times:

Rogue Trader is almost correct

Impertinence noted.



User currently offlineNG737PSR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2147 times:

Also don't forget the massive Winter charter programmes that Britannia used to offer to Australia 1988-1999 using B767-200/300ERs

LGW/MAN - CNS/BNE/OOL/SYD/CBR/MEL/ADL/PER/ASP/DRW - all served at some time with onward flights to AKL/CHC in some cases.

They used to operate UK-Aus/Nz via BAH/AUH/SHJ and SIN/BTM (Batam Island).



User currently offlineKarliboy From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 254 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2093 times:

this might be just a load of crap, but a Qantas representative once told me that either Hapag-Lloyd or Condor used to fly to Hayman Island from Germany...charter traffic of course...does anyone know if this is true?

Karl


User currently offlineGardermoen From Australia, joined Jul 1999, 1522 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2087 times:

Not sure if its Hayman Island or not, but I have seen pix of Condor 757s at some airport in one of the Queensland island resorts. Hayman, Proseperine?
Condor, Hapag Lloyd and LTU have occasional chartes to various destinations in Australia (Darwin, Broome, Hobart, Uluru etc)


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User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5085 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2077 times:

Doesn't BA and KLM flies to Australia?


Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offlineDocpepz From Singapore, joined May 2001, 1971 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2069 times:

JAL:

BA still flies to Sydney and Melbourne via Bangkok or Singapore.

KLM did a AMS-SIN-SYD route but suspended it a year ago I think. (Or maybe more than that, but no more than two years ago)

So it's basically only BA and Lauda Air that fly to Australia from Europe. Anyway you have MH, TG, SQ and QF which I think together bring in over 90% of Europeans into Australia!

I read in an earlier post that QF might start a SYD-SIN-ZRH service.

And is it true that QF are basing planes in SIN for flights that originate and terminate in SIN? (and don't go on and come from Australia??)

Qantas is the most frequent visitor to Singapore and Singapore Airlines is the most frequent visitor to Australia. I wonder how things would have been if QF sold 25% to SQ instead of BA..... hmm.. well, I shall not digress.

Cheers!


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2040 times:

Impertinence noted

Arrogance noted!

 Laugh out loud








Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineBritair From United Kingdom, joined Aug 1999, 933 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (12 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2018 times:

British Airways current Australia schedule is:

BA9 London-Bangkok-Singapore 744 daily
BA15 London-Singapore-Sydney 744 daily
BA17 London-Singapore-Melbourne 744 5 times a week

...and until March 29 this year:
BA21 London-Singapore-Sydney 744 5 times a week (this service was transferred from Qantas QF31/32 since October last year due to Qantas needing capacity on domestic flights after the Ansett collapse and BA having overcapacity post 9/11, but the service has now been taken over by Qantas again. It was pretty cool though for the last 6 months to have three BA 744's most days in Sydney!!)

Cheers  Smile


25 Republic : Braniff Place: AA did have service to Australia in the 1970s. AA swapped its transpacific routes for Pan Am's Caribbean authority in June of 1975. Uni
26 Post contains images Braniff place : Thank you very much for the information, Joe!
27 Tullamarine : This has been discussed before and the answer is still the same.....yield! Yes there are a lot of European migrants in Australia and there would possi
28 Clipper471 : "AA swapped its transpacific routes for Pan Am's Caribbean authority in June of 1975." Republic, there was no such deal with American... Pan Am began
29 Republic : Clipper 471: I am only relaying what I have read concerning the AA/Pan Am route swap. This comes from The Vital Guide To Major Airlines of the World,
30 Post contains images FlyboyOz : Wow! that's very long answer...thanks for answering my questions...
31 Andie007 : Braniff Place: When codesharing is "bullshit" - why is Qantas not flying to MUC,BCN,MAD,VIE,HAM,CPH,MAN,MXP,LIS,SXF,ARN,ZRH,WAW,....
32 Plane holland : I think KLM stopped because they didn't have fifth right from Singapore to Sydney.
33 Parisien : codesharing can be good...checkthrough which is convenient, airlines taking more responsiblities of each others' passangers, expanded destinations and
34 KL713 : KLM also stopped because of the code-share agreement with MAS, and the high costs the crew brought during their stay in Oz......
35 Yyz717 : AA suspended it's Aus routes due to profitability. They retained the authority for some years after. Like it or not, codesharing is here to stay. It's
36 Meechy36 : AA operated from HNL to SYD in the late 80's, early 90's. It was on a DC-10 that at first was sold as business and coach, in actuality it was just a r
37 Skippy777 : KLM once had 6 flights a week to Sydney until last year May. They had 3 flights with KLM aircrafts and 3 flights as a "Code share " with Alitalia ( ju
38 Skippy777 : KLM once had 6 flights a week to Sydney until last year May. They had 3 flights with KLM aircrafts and 3 flights as a "Code share " with Alitalia ( ju
39 Clipper471 : Republic, you are misinterpreting the PA/AA route "swap". 1975 saw many route consolidation agreements. "Airline 1" would abandon a region when, in ex
40 Ryanair : I think it was a case of PA pulling out of the Carribean and AA leaving Australia. Both later returned to each of course. In terms of European flights
41 Clipper471 : Ryanair, just to clarify... PA didn't pull out of the Caribbean in this AA agreement (if indeed this was one of the 1975 approved route 'swaps'). They
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