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Heathrow Approach Question  
User currently offlineBizzell0 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 62 posts, RR: 0
Posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1758 times:

How many times on average per day would they change from westerley approaches to easterly approaches at Heathrow?

I can tell they are approching from the East tonight got a great view of Concorde a couple of hours ago - what a fantastic sight!!

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineVickybiccy From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2002, 212 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1675 times:

Not sure what happens on a daily basis, but I was told yesterday that about 30% of flights go east.

User currently offlineEGGD From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 12443 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

It all depends on wind direction. Aircraft generally land into the wind. Thus if the wind is blowing from the West, aircraft will land westerly, the wind from the east, land easterly. If there is no wind then aircraft will generally approach in the direction they are travelling from, or most likely at Heathrow whatever the ATC find better.

regarrds

Dan


User currently offlineBizzell0 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1639 times:

But I thought they could only use one direction at a time - i.e take off to the west, approach from the east etc

User currently offlineEGGD From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 12443 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1627 times:

Most likely not at Heathrow, but at other airports they can. Although sometimes at large airports mistakes are made, or emergencys are called in which case aircraft land in the opposite direction (often leads to delays, though).

Dan


User currently offlineVc10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1406 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1616 times:

At LHR all approachs and take-offs are in the same direction i.e. all to the west or all to the east.
If they are using the 27L/R for T/Off and Landings then at, I believe, 12.00 Hrs they change the runways around for noise considerations
eg--- If today AM they were using 27L for T/OFFS then in the PM they would use 27R for T/OFFS
If still using 27 tomorrow then in the AM they would use 27R for T/offs and in the PM 27L for T/offs

Hope that it makes sense Regards little vc10


User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1610 times:

Bizzell0
Not sure what the policy is at LHR. But I can tell you this:
The two parallel runways at LHR are more than 4300 ft apart. This allows both runways to be used completely independently of each other. In other words, one might consider these two runways as two different airports from an ATC point of view. As long as seperation is maintained between aircraft, considering SIDs and STARs [departure and arrival streams], it doesn't really matter to/from what direction the runways are used. Off course, wind condition minima must be respected at all times.
Therefore it is possible to have ie westerly bound take-offs on the northern runway, and approaches from the west on the southern runway. Now, I've never been to LHR, so I don't know if they actually do this, but it is certainly possible and legal. However it is not common practice since it severly limits the number of available approch and outbound patterns [STAR/SID], and generally creates severe headaches at Approach/Departure ATC!

At AMS, when tailwind component is less than 5 kts, aircraft can take-off and land with tailwind component. I've seen tailwind operations up to 10 kts tailwind component. The reason that they do this is noise abatement. They have the aircraft flying from and to the runways in such a way that produces the least amount of noise foot print in relation to the build up areas.

A couple of days ago, I was at AMS and both 01/19 runways were in use for take-off. 01L was used for take-offs to the north, 19L used for take-offs to the south [27 was used for inbound traffic, since 06/24 was unserviceable].
I've even seen aircraft arriving at 06 and 27 simultaneously [with departures at 01L]! Now if you take a close look at AMS runway lay out, you'll notice that if an aircraft landing on 06 must make a go-around, it will meet conflicting inbound traffic at 27 head-on!! Furthermore, if an aircraft has a go-around at 27, it will cross conflicting traffic departing from 01L!
However this type of operation is only permitted in good VFR condition, with cloud base at least 2000ft or so. But it does show that some creative runway combinations can be used.

So for LHR, as long as tailwind component is under 5 kts [or upto 10 kts depending on runway conditions], all runways can be used to/from all directions.
Hope this helps.

PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1592 times:

Vc10
If they are using the 27L/R for T/Off and Landings then at, I believe, 12.00 Hrs they change the runways around for noise considerations...

Do they do the same 12.00 switch when they use 09L/R for takeoffs and landings? I believe not, though I'm positively sure about that.

PW100


PS Your c would look better in capital...[VC10]



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlineAmb From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1564 times:

Bizzell0, I saw concorde come over my house too today at about 7 PM. It was heading towards Heathrow heading east. Ive found recently though a lot of places have been approaching us from the west, im not too sure why its changed or what has happened but heres a list of Heathrows SDs and STARs:

http://www.ais.org.uk/uk_aip/pdf/ad/EGLL.htm


User currently offlineVc10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1406 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

PW100,
When LHR are using the 09L/R for T/Offs and landings 09L is used for landings and 09R is used for T/Offs, for noise reasons. With this configuration they do sometimes if it possible allow aircraft that are going to TERMINAL 4 to also land on 09R as this does save congestion on the ground.
PS there are two of us with the username of vc10, and although I have tried to change mine I have had no success so I try to make mine different [littleVc10] whilst the other one is VC-10
Regards little vc10


User currently offlineKingWide From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 838 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1491 times:

Just to clarify the details:

Takeoff / landing runway changeover time is at 15:00 [not 12:00].

Runways used in pairs 27L / 27R and 09R / 09L

There is no 15:00 changeover if they are on 09s, only when on 27s.

when using 09s, landings on 09L, takeoffs on 09R. Occasional landings on 09R as well [never seen a 09L takeoff].

The 27 landing / takeoff runway priority is also rotated weekly so one week, 27L is early takeoffs, the next week 27R is the early takeoff runway.

Have occasionally seen simultaneous departure from 27R and 27L [Concorde was the last one] .

Believe the favoured runway when wind is 0 is 27 [but may be wrong on that].

Before 6AM and after 23:00 [times may not be right] I think the runway choice is free [regardless of the rotation cycle] although LHR has very little traffic.



J



Jason Taperell - AirTeamImages
User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1471 times:

In dry conditions, runway 27 (L/R) is the preferential runway. Runway 09 L/R is only used when the tailwind component on runway 27 becomes greater than 5 knots, or if the runway is wet and any tailwind component exists.

So if the wind @ LHR is 090 at 4 knots, on a dry day, they still use the 27's.

A similar basis is used @ Manchester, I think the tailwind component on the 24's needs to be about 5 knots before they will change to 06.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineAndy! From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2001, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days ago) and read 1451 times:

Erm, I'd like to put the record straight as far as this topic is concerned. Coming from someone with ATC experience I take it you'll heed the information. The prevailing weather conditions are westerly (due to the Polar Front Jet Stream to be precise) and, since aircraft land into the wind, 27L/R are used for the vast majority of the time. If there is a high pressure cell overhead, winds will be easterly for a while and, hence, 09L/R will be used. To cover the other point raised here, there are NEVER any take-offs on 09L (due to close proximity of some housing estates) so if Heathrow is flying westerly operations (ie from 09L/R) the use of the runways never switches. However, if 27L/R are used, Heathrow ATC will generally switch runways at 15:00.

User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (12 years 3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1412 times:

Thanks guys.
Good info on LHR runway use!

If I understand correctly, a possible 9000ft third runway at LHR would be to the north-west of the current north runway, and would be used only for small to medium traffic? Could it be used for take-offs and landings in both directions?

PS. I would think that BAA are already getting in shape financially for this third runway. They announced that they would spend something like 7.5 billion pounds or so in the next ten years on LHR. 3.5 billion would be spent on T5, and another 3.5 billion on existing terminals. Now this seems to be a little over the top, 3.5 billion for the existing terminals...wouldn't there be something like 1 billion being prepared for a third runway...?

PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offline777kicksass From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2000, 668 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (12 years 3 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1396 times:

The concorde approaches to the 27s are always great because due to eother lack of fuel/noise they cut corners in the approach and they basically fly east across the Thames and do a 180 straight in! You can always tell them apart!

User currently offlineStandby87 From Switzerland, joined Jul 2001, 536 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (12 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1358 times:

Andy! - sorry to be a pedantic old git, but around 10 years ago, I have seen 09L used for departures. It was summer time, and it seemed like 09R had been used for weeks, but one morning it was switched over for an hour or so. At that time I was working on top of the office block/car park just south of the Northern runway: the one with a big C on the side! I think, like you say, it was against the "Cranford agreement", but I swear it happened.
Writing this now, I'm wondering if 09R had been closed for some reason, anyway, enough memories, where's my zimmer frame gone...Cheers.


User currently offlineLuxair66 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (12 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1345 times:

I lived close to LHR for many years up until 1983 and I never saw 09L used for take-offs. Doesn't mean to say it never happened though.

User currently offlineStar_world From Ireland, joined Jun 2001, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (12 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1336 times:

There is another reason that 09L is not used for takeoffs - I'll have to check the details to be sure, but I believe it's related to an antenna at the eastern end of the runway which wouldn't allow for sufficient clearance with some aircraft types. I'll see if I can find the exact information.

star_world


User currently offlineLuxair66 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1341 times:

Sorry Standby87, just read your post again, I do remember seeing 09R briefly used for both t/offs and landings when 09L had been closed for some reason, I think this only ever happened early morning or late evening, but I guess its possible the opposite could happen.

On the subject of the 15:00 switch over for 027L/R, I remember when my parents were trying to sell their house, we lived 1 mile from the end of 27R, they would always arrange for people to come round for a viewing before 15:00 or after, depending on which week it was. Bit of a bugger when the wind changed direction and they were landing on 09L all the time. Great for spotting though.


User currently offlineFBU 4EVER! From Norway, joined Jan 2001, 998 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (12 years 3 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1326 times:

Having flown in and out of LHR for some 17 years now,I can confirm your statements.They're correct!
I have seen 09L in use for take-off's,but have not done so myself.Happens occasionally when runways are being re-surfaced,repairs to lighting systems,etc.



"Luck and superstition wins all the time"!
User currently offlineAndy! From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2001, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 3 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1307 times:

Stanby87 - I guess you're probably right. Good point. What I meant to say was that they never use 09L for take-offs except in certain situations when it becomes inevitable (like resurfacing or when the other runway is closed for some reason.) I'm sure it's happened lots of times but as a general rule they stick to the "Cranford agreement." Not heard about your antenna Star World but it's a possibility. Cheers peeps. Andy!

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