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KLM And OneWorld  
User currently offlineCiro From Brazil, joined Aug 1999, 662 posts, RR: 6
Posted (12 years 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2373 times:

Not sure if this topic was discussed before, if so let us try again.

We all know KLM has strong links and a good long-term relationship with Northwest Airlines, however, what is the likelyhood of seeing the Dutch carrier joining OneWorld?

KLM would be a strategic partner for OW for various reasons. It would allow AA to have unlimited access in Europe through Schipol and, talking about BA, it would approach both airlines in a proposed merger as talked a few times before.

Also, such move would also be an open-door for MAS and its well-located hub at Kuala Lumpur to join OW. It would, certainly, tease Star Alliance´s dominance in the region at Singapore and Bangkok.

Talking about Europe, BA needs to beef up its regional operations to face up the growing presence of Lufthansa and its partners. No other airline could yield the competitive advantages BA needs in terms of route network and equipment as KLM does now. Some code-sharing has already started in the Middle-East to rationalize costs and, if there´s no anti-trust restrains, the same may apply for other short routes not to mention the sharing of facilities, reservation system, etc.

Finally, as I stated before in other postings, I don´t believe there is enough room in the current world for four large alliances. It seems that, in terms of world coverage, KLM / NW is not the strongest, so I think it is the most likely to be soon dissolved... NW hasn´t done much to strength its position worldwide, if compared to the other three larger US airlines.

Do you guys forsee a similar or a diferent scenario regarding this issue?


Ciro




The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDelta777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 658 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (12 years 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2286 times:

no way. What Would they do abiut Northwest?? I could not picture NWA/KLM in OneWorld. Also, what would happen to other partners liem Continental and Air China?

D E L T A 7 7 7


User currently offlineCiro From Brazil, joined Aug 1999, 662 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (12 years 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2281 times:

D E L T A 7 7 7,


What about Continetal and Air China joinning Star Alliance in the future?

Again, let´s assume there will be no anti-trust problems... Continental´s hubs at Houston and Newark matches perfectly with those of UAL´s network and Cleveland would be a great alternate terminal for Chicago!

Air China is flerting with Lufthansa. It seems even more likely to hook off from Wings...

There´s no room for so many alliances... Something will have to change, I guess.


Cheers!







The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
User currently offlineBlink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5482 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (12 years 6 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2239 times:

You gotta be kidding me. If American were to some reason withdraw, then KLM AND Northwest could join. Or unless KLM ends it's relationship with Northwest, which I'd seriously doubt, then they could join. The point is that one will not go in with out the other.

I really do not see American and Northwest in the same alliance. Chicago would compete too much with Minneapolis and Detroit and American would not get anything out of it other than pacific routes for Northwest, but American already has Cathay and JAL(which could join at any minute).

blink



Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
User currently offlineZeus01 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 744 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (12 years 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2214 times:

WEll geez, IF YOU THINK THAT there arn't room for four alliances, then hell there must not be!!!!!

NWA and KLM are like bread and butter. They go togther like love and marrage. THere not going anywhere. Anti trust suits would fly up like bullets if KL tried to join One world and it would never fly. Codesharing with BA maybe, but not oneworld.
NW and AA don't mix either. NW isn't exactly friendly to many airlines. THey already have a deal going with CO and CO's getting with KL and some asians carriers are coming in there to. I think thats more realistic than anything else. THat give CO and NW a chance to compete against the alliance that can't get along (Star) and One World, who has more codeshar problems than anyone else.


User currently offlineCiro From Brazil, joined Aug 1999, 662 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (12 years 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2200 times:

Blink182,

My point is that I don´t forsee Nothwest leading a worldwide alliance and I´m not sure yet what would happened to it in the long run. I never said NW would join AA but I stated that a partnership between OneWorld and KLM would be the best for these two parties´interests, in order to survive in such competitive environment regardless of how NW would deal with it.

Ciro









The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
User currently offlineCiro From Brazil, joined Aug 1999, 662 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (12 years 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2188 times:

Zeus01,

You have a good point, but things in this industry are very dynamic and that´s why we have so much fun following it... It was once stated that "Qualiflyer was the alliance of the future and Swissair would dominate the world market by purchasing airlines all over". Also, it was already said that the partnership between US Airways and British Airways was just like bread and butter as well and the partnership between Delta Airlines, Singapore Airlines and Swissair, which would rule the planet... Many other statements, like those above and based on the status quo, were mentioned in countless ocasions and complete different things happened.

Until the airline industry proves us that it can turn back to the profits SOON, I´m positive there will be no room available for four large alliances. Those carriers that will not be associated with AA, UA or DL in any form will be out of the game. That´s my prediction due to the current scenario.

Hope it doesn´t sound too aggresive.


Best regards.




The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (12 years 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2171 times:

Here's a thought to ponder. Since when has "bigger" equated into bigger profits in the airline industry?

Few seem to challenge the conventional "wisdom" that "bigger is better" and that consolidation is "the answer" to what ails the industry; and yet there is no evidence to suggest that these widely held dogmas are true. At best, one can make a hypothetical case (based on no supporting evidence) that the industry would be in worse shape without global alliances/consolidation.

To the contrary, it seems like the industry has struggled far more since "bigger is better" became the mantra than previously, when airlines operated independently albeit with code-sharing or through-fare agreements and other cooperative arrangements in select markets.


User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (12 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2162 times:

KLM will not be joining OneWorld, ever. They are way too close with NW, and CO is joining in. Together, NW and CO have a chunk of the market of the size of the big three. NW is just as strong if not stronger in Asia than UA. CO is just as big as DL to Europe. The alliance will work.

User currently offlineBaec777 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1231 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (12 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2161 times:

KLM should stay with Northwest.... One World has enough partners, BA can fly anywhere KLM goes..

baec


User currently offlineJMO-777 From Germany, joined Apr 2002, 501 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (12 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2152 times:

I hope that KLM will make its own alliance "Wings" into reality. This ally would be great.
Other members are/will be:
Northwest
Continental
Malaysia Airlines
China Southern
Kenya Airways
Cyprus
Malev

GreetZ,
Jan



~~~ Fly with a Triple Seven and you feel like in heaven ~~~
User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5090 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (12 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2144 times:

KLM joining OneWorld is a interesting possibility. I think that both can sides can benefit should they link up.


Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offlineCiro From Brazil, joined Aug 1999, 662 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (12 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2134 times:

Tango-Bravo,

Interesting comments... Business in general, as the rule of thumb, tend to look for quantity. That´s a premisse for creating economies of scale, which is not necessary good for the customer but it is crucial for the success of most enterprises. Generally speaking, larger full-service airlines are more likely to have lower break-even points than smaller full-service ones because of these economies of scale.

Indirectly, the customers are getting benefits from "e of s" in the Airline Industry. Larger aircraft, more frequencies (which dilutes fixed costs), etc helps to drive prices down, even though competition still the major factor to index it.

Thinking globally, airline marketing studies are figuring out that their average high-yield passenger, that one who trully generates the profits, are looking for frequency, worldwide coverage, standardized services and comfort and non-related airline benefits like hotels, etc... The easiest way to persue these marketing tools right now is by developing these huge alliances.

If one argues that two of the most basic factors that lead airlines to success, in terms of financing and marketing the product, within the current world situation is low operational costs and global coverage, than size does matter.


Ciro





The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 6 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2082 times:

I think nwa & klm are the most developed atlantic alliance. Basicly there are very few NWA people in Europe, KLM does everything there. The same goes for KLM in the US.


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Breaking up would put both airlines in problems.

NWA has Veto right in Continental. NWA, Continental & KLM really integrating networks/operations could make BA join this Alliance iso OW.

Combined NWA/CO hubs/ networks are perhaps preferable above the problemetic & underdeveloped BA/AA alliance.

I also believe CX doesn´t feel it really needs BA/ Oneworld to be succesfull ....

OW is not so solid IMO. They are living apart ...

keesje


User currently offlineCiro From Brazil, joined Aug 1999, 662 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (12 years 6 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2026 times:

A combined CO / NW airline would transform it in the largest US carrier? What is the likelyhood of having BA joinning Wings?

Gee... This is getting complex!



The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
User currently offlineNightcruiser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 6 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2008 times:

It's practically and impossibility for KLM to ditch Northwest and join OneWorld. I mean, what would be the motives for THAT move. KLM and Northwest have been together for nearly 10 years, and everything has worked out for them. As far as BA joining KLM's Wings Alliance, well, that should make for an INTERESTING scenario. Still, the Wings Alliance is good enough with NW, KL, MH and others. All they really need now is a major transpacific carrier, I think.

User currently offlineTekelbery From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 6 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2007 times:

Maybe a bit off topic, but I think NW needs an Australian airline partner. They fly to virtually the entire world but Australia.

User currently offlineCiro From Brazil, joined Aug 1999, 662 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (12 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1985 times:

"It's practically and impossibility for KLM to ditch Northwest and join OneWorld. I mean, what would be the motives for THAT move. KLM and Northwest have been together for nearly 10 years."

Things in this industry are dynamic and even hard to predict... How long did the partnership between the Austrian Group and Swissair last before it broke up? I don´t think that "10 years of relationship" mean that much, specially if we look back to history and see what have already happened with other carriers... As mentioned above, in the very first posting, there are good motives for such a move.

Kind regards.



The fastest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start as a billionaire.
User currently offlinePlane holland From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1980 times:

KLM has no need for an Australian partner.. they already codeshare with MH on Australia.

KLM and NW are heading in the right direction. Airlines such as BA etc. can learn from that.

they already have a very strong network/codeshare.

codesharing:
Asia:MH / Jet Airways / JAS / GA
USA: AS/CO/NW
Europe: OK/CY/HV = also NW codesharing / etc. etc
South-America: codesharing from GRU/GIG with VP/TR

I agree that bigger is not better, It's more which airlines work together and how. Better KLM not joining a big European airline because they want to eat KLM and seeing al their losses, KLM is lucky not having joined any (they probably learned big time from AZ) of them. Luckily the Dutch try to spent every penny twice..

rgds, A.


User currently offlineSkippy777 From Netherlands, joined Dec 2001, 816 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (12 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1970 times:

KLM One World NO WAY.

I don't think that will ever happen.


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