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Canada 3000 Vs. Tango  
User currently offlineAq737 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 612 posts, RR: 0
Posted (12 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 952 times:

I was looking in a MAy edition of Airways magazine and saw that Tanga was going to be shut down because there is a law protecting encroachment of competition. Tango was to move C3 lower and lower. But, C3 folded before this could happen. Is this true and what other things contributed to this? How come the action wasn;t faster?

Thanks,

Aq737

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (12 years 5 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 889 times:

C3;s mgmt mistakes caused its own demise. Tango did not affect C3. Tango was only flying for days when C3 closed.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineNBC News1 From UK - England, joined May 2001, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (12 years 5 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 880 times:

I heard something about that too but I'm not really sure what it's all about.

Canada 300 went out of business because it spent too much on Canjet, Royal Airlines, and new airplanes....so when Sept. 11 hit and it started losing money.....it had little reserves to weather the storm.

It's plan to take over Canadian's void could have been accomplished had it not been for Sept. 11.

It was moving it's ops more and more scheduled before it shut down.


User currently offlineVref From Canada, joined Jan 2002, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 5 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 871 times:

To answer your first question Aq737, Yes the Competition bureau was going to shut Tango down. Tango was and is anti-competitive and seeing that there was no more competition for them there was no point to shuting them down. That anouncement came a day or two after they closed.


Remember! She will fly over gross but not out of gas!
User currently offlineDash8king From Canada, joined Nov 2001, 2743 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (12 years 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 858 times:

Tango had nothing to do with C3 shutting down, Tango was flying for like 4 days with two aircraft. That was just angus's excuse but Tango would have hurt C3 if they hadn't shut down.

User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (12 years 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 855 times:

Is C3 wasn't run by a bunch of inept fools, and it was still around today, then yes Tango would be making a great deal of trouble for the company...but they had nothing to do with C3's bankruptcy....Angus and his band of merry men did that all by themselves...


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineSpyderz From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 651 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (12 years 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 848 times:

While Tango didn't have anything to do with C3's demise, a cease operation order was made be the Competiton Bureau. While the government claims the decision was made prior to C3 shutting down, in all likelihood it wasn't and was just a ploy to show that the government did care about C3 and try to help them out.

User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (12 years 5 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 840 times:

While I agree that for the most part it was C3's management decisions which played the biggest role in its demise, Tango did affect C3 and did contribute in a small but significant way towards its bankruptcy.

C3 was in a risky operation, but could have continued had it not been for September 11th. The fact that they did not have a contingency plan, and very little in reserves was bad, and due to that, they could not deal with a downturn as happened last September. They also did not react like other airlines by laying off workers and cutting back.

Tango's role however made it that much more difficult for C3 to get financing in order to continue with operations. Just the fact that there was this threat from the biggest airline in Canada will mean that people wont want to invest their money in C3, because there are too many uncertainties.



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineCanadi>nBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 5 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 825 times:

Now this is something I do not understand at all. If Ottawa and Collenette were ready to issue a cease and desist order against Tango, in regards to C3, then do not the same circumstances and principals apply in regards to Zip and Westjet??? I really do not see any difference between the two. Or am I missing something here?

I agree with the others here. Angus Kinnear and Co. were to blame for the C3 shutdown. They did a very good job destroying what they built up.

Canadi>nBoy
YYZ


User currently offlineCX829 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 821 times:

Here's an easy formula:

Air Canada = our Canadian governemnt
Milton = Collenette

Therefore, nothing is being done despite Collenette's speech about chopping AC's 85% market share.

It's all a game!


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (12 years 5 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 805 times:

Nuno, I disagree with you that Tango made it harder for C3 to raise investment money.

When an airline shuts down and goes hunting for new capital to restructure & restart ops, it's already on death's door. Also, there is every indication that had C3 obtained new capital, the feds would have followed thru with the cease & desist order against Tango.

Any possible capital investment into a C3 Mark II, would have received the highest degree of scrutiny by the investors......if they could be convinced that Angus had a good business plan, they would have invested. Clearly, Angus could not even get beyond this stage.

IMHO

Neil



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (12 years 5 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 803 times:

The cese and desist order would have come from the competition board, and not The Dumb Ass Transport minister, or his department...The hearings ended just after C3's went T/U and as for WJ and ZIP...IF Westjet does nto bring AC before the competition board, there is nothing that will be done...

Nuno, I dont agree with you that Tango played such a big role...Leaky admited that they knew the company would run out of money by the fall way back in the summer...The feds were ready to give C3 some cash, IF they proved that they could make the operation viable again, they didnt want to make the same mistakes that they did with Canadian, and I am happy that they did what they did. Angus couldnt fix the mess that he made, and so the government could not co-sign any loans for the company...I do agree with you that they did not react correctly after sept 11th, instead of laying off people from the botom of the list, they tried to pick and choose their way through layoffs, and that blew up in their faces...



"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineMcdougald From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 5 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 799 times:

Ottawa hasn't really had a clear-headed strategy for dealing with the airlines.

It could have easily developed a clear-headed strategy if it wanted to: let the airline business operate like a real, for-profit business, much like the large supermarket chains that many communities depend on.

Think about it: in numerous cities, two or three supermarket chains dominate the sale of food, a human necessity, which they are entrusted to do safely. But they are left to run themselves, by and large, as real businesses. Not as half-business, half-public utility, depending on how the winds of public opinion are blowing.

It's a system that works well.

But when it comes to the distribution of airline tickets, including low-fare ones for leisure travelers, the federal government reserves the right to send a competition or complaints commissioner after an airline, to turn away foreign investors otherwise willing to rescue a floundering airline or launch a new one, to pressure airlines about layoffs or to maintain service on unprofitable routes, and so on.



User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (12 years 5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 779 times:

I don't disagree with you McDougal. but I think the best federal airline strategy is no strategy. Simply leave it to the private sector.

While some will argue that this will ensure AC's dominance of the domestic market, it will not be the case in the long run. A monopolist never lasts in a truly competitive market because as soon as they let their guard down, someone will jump in to a segment of the market. Arguably, a dominant player (such as AC, without a true competitor) will become lazy quicker.

The feds should keep clear.....on this note, I fully supported Collenette's decision not to bail out C3...why should taxpayers bail out a private company?

Neil



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
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