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Why Is DL So Timid Against AA At Dfw?  
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6439 posts, RR: 17
Posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3581 times:

AA has just about hourly DFW-LGA,several to EWR and even 1 or 2 to JFK. DL just has 3 to LGA
DL has NO nonstops to these important business cities:PHL,ORD, EWR. not sure about DTW. Are they afraid of AA. DL has a customer base at DFW also.
What's their strategy here?


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5568 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3475 times:

Not very surprising. DFW is AA's main-hub. In ATL (DL's main-hub) in contrary AA does not have flights.

User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3483 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3454 times:

DL serves DFW-JFK daily with an MD-88 as well.

User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6439 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3438 times:

They seem to only have 3 westbound banks & 3 eastbound banks.


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3468 times:

DL at one time did compete more strongly at DFW, in the early to mid 1990s DL offered more service out of DFW to more cities and utilize bigger airplanes. They were second to AA, but a much closer second. At a certain point, actualy after AA closed down its Nashville and Raleigh hubs, AA focused on DFW making DFW its number one hub and put a lot of resources into DFW - the result was that DL scaled back operations at DFW and instead focused on its other hubs such as CVG, SLC and of course, its stronghold, ATL. DL has been increasing service again at DFW but largely with regional jets. DL used to operate nonstop flights between DFW and FRA, by the way.

Actually, the fact that DL does as well as it does out of DFW is interesting, competing against number one AA on its home turg and having Southwest across town at Love is a difficult is a very difficult enviornment indeed.


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3426 times:

They cannnot make in money in those markets you mentioned. EWR,PHL,DTW,and ORD are hubs of the competition just like DFW. They can make BOS,DCA,LGA work because DL has a better share of the overall travel in these cities.

DL/DL connection is increasing market share in DFW. They will soon have 20% of the enplanements vs AA at 70%. AF is coming back, and more RJ flights are planned.
AM is adding MEX flights. DL also outperforms AA in exit DFW cargo and mail tonnage relative to their size.


User currently offlineAA61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3393 times:

what will AF fly here again? the a340? AA competes with delta on the DFW-ATL route, i knew they used to fly like 8 flights daily with maybe 3 757s


Go big or go home
User currently offlineLadevale From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3386 times:

God, Padcrasher, you and your "emplanements."

Every time you want to show that Delta is gaining, you resort to telling us that Delta's emplanements to Latin America or wherever else are increasing.

Again and again, however, we try to remind you that "emplanements" mean nothing. All one emplanement means is that Delta had an additional boarding that they didn't have before. In this situation, it is no surprise that Delta has increased its boardings because they have added RJ flights far in excess of the number of mainline flights that they've eliminated.

It is a far leap, however, from having a greater number of emplanements to increasing market share. In absolute terms, it seems more likely that Delta's market share has remained flat or actually fallen. The latter seems even more likely because replacing a mainline jet with 120 seats with two RJ flights with 50 seats would result in a loss of seating capacity in any particular market served from DFW. Hypothetically, if AA can fill one 120-seat jet and Delta can fill both RJ flights to a particular destination, AA would still have a greater share of the market with only one emplanement.

Last year before Delta started its RJ push, I determined what AA's market share at DFW was vs. Delta's. I did that by going to the DFW Airport site and downloading the passenger number statistics. I did this because someone on another board was making the specious claim that Delta had increased its market share at DFW. What I found instead was that Delta mainline had shifted much of its capacity to Delta Connection carriers without increasing its market share at all.

I don't have the time to do that now and I suspect it would be much harder to do since one would not only have to count the passenger numbers of Eagle into the American total, but the passenger numbers of TWA, of course, only those flights that AA retained. Since the DFW Airport report only breaks down the numbers by airline and not flights, the best one could probably do is compare AA's market share to Delta's without the TWA LLC data.

In any case, I am assuming that AA increased its market share last year because of the addition of certain routes like DFW to St. Louis, among others.


User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

I think Delta's DFW hub is a very interesting situation. If you look at what they're doing, they are really providing this hub for the use of:

--mainly their pax in their stronghold Southeastern markets going to Texas or regional cities around DFW or larger cities further west, and
--to a smaller extent for their pax in certain Northeastern markets where they have large followings, also going to cities in Texas and the surrounding states, or going further west.

Note that AA typically competes on every route and often offers more frequencies. However, the Delta DFW hub is the best hub example I know of where a hub competes purely on frequent flier loyalties. Because Delta controls the Southeastern U.S. and has strong followings in some Northeastern markets, people living here are going to fly DL through DFW even when AA may offer more frequencies, a larger airplane, etc...

Delta's hub at DFW is a great sign of passengers staying loyal to Delta, even in the face of a much more comprehensive hub across the ramp at AA.

kind regards,

RogueTrader


User currently offlineNonrevman From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1297 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3352 times:

Padcrasher,

Where did you find out that AF is returning to DFW?

Look for increased RJ service out of DFW with the connection carriers. Hopefully, this will provide framework to eventually beef up the mainline in the future.


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

Lavedale your confusing me.

You said this.

Last year before Delta started its RJ push, I determined what AA's market share at DFW was vs. Delta's. I did that by going to the DFW Airport site and downloading the passenger number statistics. I did this because someone on another board was making the specious claim that Delta had increased its market share at DFW. What I found instead was that Delta mainline had shifted much of its capacity to Delta Connection carriers without increasing its market share at all.

Now, this is what I said.

"DL/DL CONNECTION" is increasing market share in DFW. They will soon have 20% of the enplanements vs AA at 70%.

I obtained these numbers from the very same website statistics that you used to determine, as you said "market share". Were you thinking that I was referring only to Delta mainline?


Also, if you could explain this for me?

Since the DFW Airport report only breaks down the numbers by airline and not flights, the best one could probably do is compare AA's market share to Delta's without the TWA LLC data.

What do you mean by "airline and not flights"?

The website we both looked out breaks down passenger boardings by AA, AA Eagle, Comair, ASA and so on. I looked at February 02 date long after TW was gone.

Let me know where I'm wrong here. I'm really open to learning something new.








User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3325 times:

Non Rev,

This is a "done deal" if my AF sources are correct.
AF needed the capacity after SN,SR and AirAfrique went under. Africa is a big money maker for AF now days. You move the aircraft where you make the most money. AF will come back to DFW after more planes are delivered.


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3262 times:

Ladevale

Here is the data from the DFW Airport website Mar 02.
I thought I would pull it for you since your busy.


Carrier Mar-02
American Mkt Share
AA 62.2%
Eagle 7.2%
AA Total 69.4%
Delta
Delta 14.2%
ASA 2.7%
Skywest 1.3%
Comair 0.5%
DL Total 18.7%

Total Hub Airlines 88.1%




User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3263 times:

Here's March 01 data.

Mar-01
Mkt. Share
AA 62.2%
AE7.4%
Total 69.6%

DL 15.8%
ASA 1.5%
OH 0.0%
Skywest 0.3%
DL total 17.6%

All others 87.2%

Awaiting your reply


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6608 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3175 times:

Ladevale,

I don't understand the big fuss you're making. The DFW website clearly shows that DL and DL Connection combined have gained marketshare. Yes, DL mainline has actually lost marketshare but it has more than been offset by DL Connection growth.

The primary purpose of DL's DFW hub is not to compete with AA...because DL can't. The primary purpose is to provide more options for DL travelers and to provide relief for ATL. For example, someone flying TLH-SFO could connect through ATL, but ATL is very congested and many of the ATL-TLH flights are packed. So, DL offers RJ service TLH-DFW which allows westbound travelers another option and takes pressure off ATL.


User currently offlineBlink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5482 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3144 times:

I think the biggest reason Delta is still somewhat of a major player in Dallas is that there are a lot of loyal Skymiles Members still in the area.

Does anyone know if indeed DFW-HNL will be reintroduced? I know they operated it with the L1011 I have heard that they dropped it for 1 of the 2 reasons:

A) Too much AA competition
B)L1011 retirement.

Does anyone know what the story is here?

blink



Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
User currently offlineAA61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3113 times:

im almost positive it was because of AA's competition, they have the 767-400 which is basically an L1011. so i dont see a reason why they would drop a route because of the aircraft


Go big or go home
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3093 times:

I do not think that DFW-HNL will be reintroduced in the near future - HNL routes in general are lesiure oriented and do not have great yeilds; pax out of DFW can fly with DL to HNL via LAX and pax in other parts of the country can connect via ATL, SLC or LAX if going to HNL.

DL used to fly ATL-DFW-HNL when it had a more comprehensive presence at DFW and was "seriously" competing with AA at DFW. As discussed above, DL has now taken a different approach at DFW that hopefully will be more profitable for that airline.


User currently offlineMilemaster From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1066 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3073 times:

AA's operation out of ATL is quite small in comparison with DL's at DFW.

I don't know why I just pointed that out, but it just seemed relavent for some reason.

DFW is a truly unique environment for airlines to operate in. There's a niche for everyone it seems... Even if it doesn't specifically mean DFW airport, let's not forget Love Field - Birthplace for Southwest under the iron fist of AA.

God dammit for the whole Legend Failure, but still.

I know of no other market where you can have virtually 20 daily flights to LAS for example, and a new entry like National can come in and pack their 757's to capacity as well.

I love it...

If Delta increased their flights, there would be asses in their seats without question. It's a turf thing... American doesn't compete in Atlanta, and Delta just sends traffic "on through" DFW. Cargo contracts take care of the gravy, and nobody gets pissed.

word


User currently offlineBaec777 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1231 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (12 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3031 times:

Delta has nonstop DFW-JFK operated as Delta 584, MD88  Smile

baec


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