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Powerplant For KLM 777's?  
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1619 times:

Apologies for the spelling: ive got three broken fingers as of last sunday in a rugby game sorry. Im on a study break so i thought i'd introduce a new topic and see what you guys thought about my thoughts on the subject.

Further to the KLM 777 post, i'd like to discuss what engine KLM are most likely to order for their triple sevens. So what engine do we reckon they will order? The Pratt and Whitney is used by Air China, Asiana, El Al, United, Korean, ANA, Egyptair, JAL, JAS. The GE90 is used by Saudi, Kuwait, China Southern, Varig, early BA, Aeroflot, Continental, and Air France. The most popular engine for the triple seven in terms of orders is the Rolls Royce Trent 800, which has been ordered by Singapore, British Airways, American Airlines, Delta, Cathay Pacific, Thai, Malaysian, Air Europe (Might be P&W now that i think about it), and Emirates.

Other operaotrs which have ordered the 777 have not yet committed to an engine type. Alitalia = I havent heard what powerplant they went for, but i would imagine they would have gone with Pratt and Whiteny. Eva Air = Havent got a clue. Air New Zealand = Not a confirmed order, but i would think that they would go with Rolls. PIA = they are on about getting the first batch of GE powered non-ER British Airways triple sevens. So that just leaves KLM.

So, if KLM havent decided already, and ive missed the press announcement, then which do we reckon they will order? They do not have a history with Rolls Royce, So i suspect that Rolls is the least likely despite the popualrity of the Trent 800, which is a triple shaft design, and is the smallest and lightest of the three. The GE90 is not as popular, though popularity has nothing to do with engine quality. its just down to preference, though some airlines have ordered the Rolls where it seemed very unlikely that they would go for a non US design, like Delta and American. Neither of these have much of a history with non-US stuff, (they are a notorious no-airbus zone) but both went for the Rolls despite their collective love for P&W and GE powerplants on their existing fleet. So, i surmise that there must be something about the rolls that Airlines like. Ease of maintenance springs to mind, and a degree of parts comonality with the RB211 which is in wide service around the world, and well known to anyone who operated the L1011 or a lot of 757's for example. The Rolls is apparently the most simple of the three. Having said that, i dont think it is the best in terms of fuel efficiency and maintenance per cycle for shorter haul operations, because if it was, Rolls would the engine of choice for the domestic Japan market instead of the Pratt and Whitney. So, i surmise, and i realise there probably isnt much in it, that the Pratt is the best engine for shorter haul destinations, where flight time is quite short, and the fuel load not very heavy as a result.

Where will KLM be running their triple sevens? Canada, Carribean, some asian destinations, and north american flifghts either as a repeat daily after a 747, or a daily / nearly daily lower yield like BA do with Phoenix, Denver, Charlotte, Baltimore, Cleveland, and San Diego. Most of the 747's run to the top line US destinations and the top line Asian destinations, and the MD11's take the medium density routes, and the 767's take the lower density ones. Point is, the triple sevens will go all over, as they can and will take some of all three types of route, and so do not have a specific route density in mind so they will have to take an engine that is as efficient from Schipol to Heathrow (They use a 767-300 during the week and fill it up too, so might we see a triple seven? KLM seem to think they can get 250+ bums on seats on monday wednesday and friday mornings, so how bout another 50?) as it is runing Schipol to Osaka (MD11 currently i think) and San Francisco (767 / 747-400) and St Maarten (MD11 / 747-200SUD)

So where does that leave engine choice? I havent read of anyone who has had any big problems with the engines they have chosen other than BA not having a great deal of fun with their early GE90's, and Emirates and Malaysian having some bad bird strikes with their Trents. (not really a problem with the engine per se, but it is when a replacement engine is a bit tricky to get hold of!) None of the big operators are having problems, and its very rare for any 777 to go tech, so we can safely say that all three powerplants are very reliable, and all have roughly comparable fuel economy, with the GE90 being slightly better over very long haul distances, and the Pratt and Whitney being slightly better shorter haul. In this case, i suspect that the best powerplant for KLM's usage needs would be the trent, as it has a number of benefits to it.

* BA already operate A LOT of rolls powered triple sevens and the two companies are known to be quite close, so it wouldnt be too much of a problem to train crew, maybe wet lease a rolls powered triple seven to do the crew and maintenance training from BA. Failing that, instigate a maintenance sabattical programme where KLM engineers spend time with the BA staff at Heathrow and also at BAMC in Cardiff to learn the ins and outs of the Trent 800.

* Rolls are a European Company, and there will almost certainly be some pressure behind the scenes for them to order the trent, as it would be seen as a signal of European Solidarity = i doint agree with it, but it does happen.

* Spare parts will be easier and quicker to get hold of if they are built in a neighbouring country such as the UK instead of the US for the other two powerplants. (actually this is in part nullified when i realise that GE have a parts and maintenance plant in south wales, which is in the UK too. In fact i think they make them there, do they? Have to find out about that one...)


* They are on about ordering some A330-200's in the future. By far the most popular engine on the A330 is the Rolls Trent 700, and whilst not identical, does have a high degree of parts commonality, and is broadly a very similar engine merely with a larger fan diameter and larger chamber and fuel pumps. Already having the Trent familiy in place would undoubtedly help in the integration process of the new engine. One could argue of course that the other choice of powerplant of the a330 is also quite similar to the P&W dominated current fleet.

* Could it be that the Rolls is the cheaper of the three options? More have been ordered, so it may be that the Rolls is the cheapest option. Whoever offers the cheapest engine will be at a massive advantage in this race, and KLM are pretty good at not spending more than they need to, to get what they require (the stretching of their -200 series jumbos to extend their lives is a good example)

* In future, it is more likely that Rolls powered triple sevens will be more freely available on the second hand market becasue there are more of them, so by ordering Rolls Trent powered triple sevens, further fleet aquisitions maye be made easier.

* The A380 is Trent 700 powered, so if they should decide to order it later (much later i agree but who knows what will happen in ten years time?) a degree of fleet commonality will make the acquisition of this easier. Actually, i think the A380 is quite likely to be ordered by KLM. They have a couple of routes that would really make one pay.

* It seems likely that further triple seven orders will be forthcoming at some stage after the first batch have been accepted, and the 747-200SUD's will need replacing sooner or later, ( it is my understanding that the 777's are to replace the MD11's and the long range configured 767's) and given the need to expand once the industry picks up again, there looks like a market for the newer 777-300ER once that gets into operation, (perhaps to replace the earlier 747-400's = running costs) and Rolls are supposed to be offering a beefed up Trent (900 perhaps?) to go with it. Even so, the current crop of stretch triple sevens are mostly Rolls powered (Emirates, Singapore, and Thai). (the others are Pratt and Whitney powered = ANA, JAL, and Korean) (the only GE90 powered stretches will be the new Air France ones we surmise, as they havent announced the powerplant yet, and we assume they will be the same as their current -200's) Does anyone know what the Asiana and Eva stretches will be powered by?

So, for these reasons, i hope Rolls will get the KLM triple seven order, though i suspect they will plum for Pratt and Whitney as their current fleet is p&w powered.

If i had to guess, id say Rolls by a pinch, but theres not much in it, and its too close to call with any certainty.

What do you chaps think?

Have i missed anything important? Have i missed any other upcoming 777 deliveries? I cant think of any, but you can never tell : )

Best Wishes,
CHRISTOPHER MORGAN


What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1848 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1523 times:

EVA and Alitalia ordered the GE90. JAL and ANA have placed GE90 powered B777s, in addition to their original PW4000 powered B777s. No, the most popular engine on the A330 is not the Trent 700. It is the PW4000. No, the Trent 700 does not power the A380, the Trent 900 does. No, the Trent will not find its way on the B773ER. GE got the exclusive deal. What will KLM choose? It has to be between the GE90 and the Trent 800. I don't think the PW4000 has a chance. GE should have the advantage because of the current relationship between GE and KLM. Also, down the road, the B773ER might come in the picture for KLM. In this case, the GE90 is the more sensible choice.

User currently offlineJMO-777 From Germany, joined Apr 2002, 500 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1514 times:

Hi Christopher,

very, very nice & informative post!!! Congratulations!

But there are little mistakes:
1) ELAL has Trents on its 777s.
2) KLMs fleet isn't powered by P&W, but by GE  Big grin
Add's1) The 300er/200lr are exclusive powered by GE
Add's2) AZ has ordered GE, afaik!

I think that KLM will order GE90s for their 777s to hold on with its ongoing coorperation with GE, I think that they have a kind of maintenance license from GE in AMS.
But I wont rule out RR Trents its also a very reliable engine. I think that GE has a little advantage because of the currently powered KLM fleet!!

GreetZ,
Jan




~~~ Fly with a Triple Seven and you feel like in heaven ~~~
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4150 posts, RR: 37
Reply 3, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1509 times:

I´ve heard that the choice is down to the GE90 or Trent 800, the PW4000 has been rejected. Depending on KLM´s future plans I see the Trent as the front runner, assuming that the B744 will stay for quite some time and that the A330-200 order is still in the pipeline. Plus future A380s could be powered by the Trent-family as well, reducing maintenance expenses over the GE-family with three different types (GE90, CF-6... and GP7200).

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1491 times:

Sorry mate it was all off the top of my head, but thanks for letting me know. That GE should get the exclusive deal for the 777-300ER is interesting. I would have thought they would offer a choice, as airlines will not wnat to have a new engine on a new plane, when they can have an engine they know and love, on a new plane that can do the job just the same. im surprised that JAL and ANA went for the GE powered stretches, though if they didnt have a choice then i suppose its not that shocking is it?

Best Wishes CHRIS

PS: How do you work out that the PW4000 is the more popular A330 powerplant? I always thought the Rolls was far more popular = lets see.

RR Trent 700

Emirates
British Midland
SAS
Air Canada
JMC
Monarch
Airtours
Cathay Pacific
Qantas
Edelwiess
Sri Lankan
Dragonair
Corsair
Premiair
My Travel
Air Transat
Gulf Air
Iberworld
Volare
TAM
Garuda Indonesia

PW4000

Thai
Korean
US Air
Air France
Swiss / Swissair
Aer Lingus
Skyservice
Sabena / SN / VG
LTU
Austrian
Khalifa
Air Luxor
Canada 3000

Wouldnt like to call it really. Perhaps Rolls becasue they have more operators, including EK which is the largest operator of this lovely aeroplane. AC and CX are also very big users, both of which are Rolls. Cant think of any of the PW operators that have more than 15 airframes, though i could be wrong about Swiss.






What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1473 times:

Jans post raises a question that has been bugging me for a while. How do you tell a GE from a PW? I know PW sometimes put their little logoes on the cowlings, but they dont always do it. Im talking about the CF6 type range for the widebodies- they both look very similar! Whats the difference? If i'd have known that, i wouldnt have got the KLM current fleet engine thing wrong! Also what about the PW and the RR Trent on the Triple seven? They look very similar: how do you tell the difference?

Regards, CHRIS



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineBaec777 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1231 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1470 times:

RR Trent 800 powers the 777s.... just correcting your mistakens.  Smile

baec


User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1848 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1465 times:

I don't have the data handy, but I am certain that there are more PW4000 powered A330s than Trent powered A330s. In the past two years, there are more orders for CF6 powered A330s, such as Qantas, Qatar, Air France, and EVA. But they still have a long way to catch up with either RR or P&W.

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1458 times:

I didnt realise there was a GE CF6 option for the A330! shows how much i know then doesnt it! In that case, then my list of PW4000 operators looks thinner, as i assumed they were all PW4000's. Next to the RR list, i cant see how the PW4000 can be more popular than the Rolls, but if youre sure, then you might be right, as i am not as informed as you guys really. I take it the lists are correct in as much as the Rolls A330 operators are correct and the PW4000 is a list of everyone else who uses A330's. If its not, feel free to cut and paste a revised list. (Apart from the qantas one, which was an educated guess on my part)

Baec777? where did i say that the triple seven had trents that were not 800's? Ive looked through my post and i cant find where i said it. Im not having a go, so if i did, then please consider it a typo.  Smile

Cheers Chaps.
CHRIS



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineJkelley480 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1435 times:

I like to root for the underdog so... go P&W!

User currently offlineBWIrwy4 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 940 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1430 times:

Chris: The PW engines don't have a sharp cone on the back end, while GEs do.

User currently offlineQatarAirways From Qatar, joined Sep 2008, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1427 times:

A330 Engines shares (the ones that I know of)

Rolls Royce Trent 700

BMI - 4
Emirates - 26
SAS Scandinavian - 4
Gulf Air - 6 (+1 if they recieve funds)
Dragonair - 9
Premiair - 5
Airtours - 6
Cathay Pacific - 23
Air Canada - 8
Air Transat - 4
Garuda - 9
Corsair - 2
Monarch - 2
Edelweiss(sp?) - 1
Iberworld - 1
SriLankan - 6 (2 destroyed)
MEA - 3
Cyprus - 3 (?)

Total - 122

Pratt and Whitney PW4000

Skyservice - 6 (1 with airtours 2 with Khalifa)
Air Luxor - 1
LTU - 12
Swiss (SwissAir) - 16
Korean Air - 19
Thai - 12
Eurofly - 2
US Airways - 10
Northwest - 36
Austrian - 4
Sabena / VG Airlines - 8 (?)
TAM Brasil - 5
Malaysia - 10 (1 W/O)

Total - 141

General Electric CF6

Qatar Airways - 8
Qantas - 13
Air France - 12 (?)
Aer Lingus - 8
Phillipine Airlines - 8
Air Caledonie - 2
Volare - 1 (?)
Sabena / Birdy - 4 (?)
TAM Brazil - 5
EX-Canada 3000 (still parked) - 3

Total - 64


This is not a very accurate list but it should provide you with a rough overview.








User currently offlineAFC_ajax00 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1415 times:

Qatar, I believe that the Air France A330-200 deal is for 18 aircraft but I could be wrong so!


Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward; for there you long to return
User currently offlineQatarAirways From Qatar, joined Sep 2008, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1407 times:


I didn't have much time to check anyway. That is why I said "This is not a very accurate list but it should provide you with a rough overview." so you are probably right. The only reason I did this list was to show a rough overview of the engine market shares for the A330. So I expect their are more mistakes in my list but it still show that PW has the biggest share, followed by RR and GE. With GE being the rising star in the market.

So if their are any more mistakes, please feel free to correct me. If there are too many mistakes then just hit the button and then after I make the corrections I will repost this.

BTW so I don't veer of topic I think that KLM will most likely pick GE to power the 777s.

Regards,
QatarAirways


User currently offlineAFC_ajax00 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1405 times:

Its all good, Qatar!


Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward; for there you long to return
User currently offlineQatarAirways From Qatar, joined Sep 2008, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 1387 times:

I missed JMC, MyTravel and Air Calin... but still PW is in the lead but only slightly.

User currently offlineTortuga From United States of America, joined May 2002, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1368 times:

I don't think there's any doubt that KLM will go with GE90. They've been a GE fan for a long time.

Also, I think Alitalia will go with GE.

Here's a little article that talks about Alitalia...

http://www.awgnet.com/shownews/01paris1/topsto07.htm


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1321 times:

Thanks Guys.

It is nice i must say to have a normal informed discussion without all that airbus v boeing business rearing its ugly head. One thing though. Northwest ordered 36 a330's? CURRENTLY Rolls has the largest market share, but once the northwest birds get delivered that will change  Smile Wow, thats a hell of an order! Doesnt matter anyway, it makes no difference to me.

Isnt it nice to great airplanes getting orders? Im as big a fan of the triple seven as you are likely to meet, and the same goes for the A330. Wonderful aeroplanes, and its nice to see them doing well.

I think we've established now, or rather you convinced me to the contrary of what i beleived before, that the GE90 is going to get a dutch order pretty soon. Im happy. I think the GE90 powered triple sevens look even more impressive due to that enormous fan!

I wonder what a KLM triple seven looks like... Woiuld be nice to see a piccy of one with those big GE90's... Smile


REGARDS
CHRIS MORGAN



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
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