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Airbus Did Very Well In 2001 But.....  
User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1722 times:

According to Airliner World they are still somewhat short of arch rival Boeing in Deliveries.

This is definately not intended to be an A v B war but to illustrate to all those that have incorrectly stated that A & B are of equal nature or even leading Boeing. It may happen in the future but not at the moment. Such statments are incorrect and below are the facts for 2001 year.

Airbus Deliveries totalled 321 or 39.15% Boeing had 499 deliveries or 60.85% of the market.

Airbus would have needed at least 50% more than the 321 to get close to the 499 of Boeing.

For a more in depth analysis


717 & A318

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Photo © Jonathan Simmons
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Despite the knockers 717 had a good year with 47 units and with no A318 yet there wasn't really any competion (RJs excluded)
737BBJs were 19 units to 0


737-700 & A319

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Very close at 90 737-700s to 89 A319s. Nothing in it but then the 90 does not include the 19 BBJs many of which were 700s. (several 600s included total)
738-800 & A320

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This one was quite suprising with the 738 dominating the A320. The margin 155 738 to 119 A320s.

A321 & 737-900

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The A321 wins this one but the 739 with 21 units has done reasonably well against the A321 with 45 when you consider the 757 is probably the A321s competitor.

The 736s which were not many were included in the 737 talley. Total 73G versus A32x was 285 73G to 253 A32X only thirty two units apart.

Boeing 757-200 & 300

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There were 41 757 sales (9 of which were 300s) Not bad for an old design which equates to more than A330(32) or A340 (25)

B767 & A330

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Despite the knockers 767 achieved 36 sales (5 762 25 763(4 300F) and 6 764. A330 is not really comparable to B777 so we will include it here with 32 sales. Suprizing result for the 767. Reading these posts you would have thought it was finished!!!

744-400 & A340

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The mighty 747 shouldn't really be compared to A340 but with 32 units(19 pass 13 freighters) it has significantly outsold the newer A340.

Boeing 777-200 & 300

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This just leaves the 777 with 57 units delivered (3 300s)
which is the same as A330 & A340 combined. If you compare combined A340 A330 to B777 then this leaves 41 757 36 767 and 32 747s unanswered with an Airbus competitor.

Also there were 1 MD11F to Lufthansa and 11 A300Fs as well.

Those are the facts for 2001 according to Airliner World monthly summaries.





30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1570 times:

Airbus were ahead in sales, not deliveries.


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1553 times:

What good are sales if you are not producing them.

What is customer service if you have a big backlog and can't produce.

Airlines will end up cancelling and going with the oppisition because they can deliver.  Smokin cool



User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1546 times:

No, an airline orders a/c for delivery a couple of years down the line (at least). Therefore, in a couple of years expect airbus to be delivering more a/c.


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1533 times:
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Dude, you've already started a AvB war with those figures  Big grin




In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1516 times:

I just found it amusing that the implication was I could call up Boeing, order a couple of 777's and expect them to be couriered to my house first thing tomorrow morning!  Big thumbs up I agree airbus do not currently offer this option Big grin Maybe they could use the Japanese 'vending machine' delivery model - simply put your cash in, press the correct button and out comes your brand new airliner!!!  Big thumbs up


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineEugdog From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 518 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1508 times:

Please, please do not confuse orders with sales. Aiirbus is ahead in orders not sales

The accounting rules are (Enron not withstanding!) is that Sales are recognized when goods are delivered and there is no substantial further obligations (such as warranties) on behalf of the seller.

It remains to be seen whether Airbus will actually out deliver Boeing!


User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1494 times:

You have missed the point somewhere. Are you counting orders like... tesnas 30 A32x for Australia.

How long has it been more financially viable to collect large sums of money for "orders" rather than actual deliveries.

Go back to sleep but read Eugdogs post first.

As stated the facts are there and you have the benefit of several hours work!!!


User currently offlineParra From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1478 times:

You mentioned "knocker". Can you post a picture of a nice big pair please.

User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1475 times:

Right, my mistake. Sales have NOTHING to do with the future viability of the organisation. Lets just disregard them all, afterall, who cares about the future eh? It just doesn't count......  Big grin


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1474 times:
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Airbus is rapidly catching boeing in sales and orders, the 737 has always been a hot seller for boeing and will continue to be so in the forthcoming future. But airbus is another option for airlines so they look to them for their requirements. 767 orders have come to a trickle while the A330 is selling well with a lot airlines. The 777 outdoes both the A330/340 combination, it's a real winner for boeing.

The 100-seater market doesn't seem to be doing too well for airbus and boeing (717/A318), i don't know why, maybe because airlines are prefering the regional jets in the 84 seat category.

Arsenal@LHR



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1423 times:

Airbus has less construction capacity than Boeing so can cause a bit of a backup of orders.

User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1421 times:

Airbus tries to keep always the same employee staff in order to guarantee for high-quality.

Boeing uses "Hire-and-fire", they hire employees once there is need, give them a little practice, then let them build planes and if they are not needed anymore they get fired.

That's why Boeing deliviers so much more aircraft.


User currently offlineEGGD From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 12443 posts, RR: 35
Reply 13, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1419 times:

'Not intended as an A.v.B war' BULL, and you know it. You have to post completely biased facts that don't represent anything of fact, and this is just to 'spite' all the airbus 'lovers' on this forum.

Goes straight into the 'suggest deletion' pile...

This is definately not intended to be an A v B war but to illustrate to all those that have incorrectly stated that A & B are of equal nature or even leading Boeing. It may happen in the future but not at the moment. Such statments are incorrect and below are the facts for 2001 year.

LMAO! Thats a classic, state that it is not an A.v.B war and then spout out a load of pro-Boeing crap. And every 'example' of deliveries you posted was written with a huge emphasis on 'Boeing is best'...

Can't you just see it as a level playing field?


User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1410 times:

If you think about what each has accomplished, they are both exceedingly well run organizations in terms of revenue and production--and will only getter better (and more bitter) as time progresses.

Congratulations to both sides of the Atlantic.


User currently offlineWidebody From Ireland, joined Aug 2000, 1152 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1407 times:

It's well documented that Boeing are well ahead in deliveries, and will continue to be for another two or three years.......the reason is clearly more orders........ Airbus has grown in the orders field for the last number of years, and finally earned more orders than Boeing for the first time in 1999......before that, Boeing always had more orders than Airbus, and now therefore, they have more deliveries......

Some people say deliveries are more important, because the money transfer doesn't occur until the handover......some say orders are more important, as that points to where the company is going in the future.....shareholders for example, will go for orders, and not deliveries......

One big point to note however, was that following the Sept. 11th issues, Airbus were listed as being in a better financial position than Boeing, as Boeing had about 120 billion in backlog orders, Airbus had 140 billion...........

I see the point about cancellations, but on average, the overall rate of cancellation will be similar between two manufacturers.......

Rgds,
WB.


User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1407 times:

EGGD
'Not intended as an A.v.B war' BULL, and you know it. You have to post completely biased facts that don't represent anything of fact, and this is just to 'spite' all the airbus 'lovers' on this forum.

Don't worry EGGD, when Airbus actually deliver more planes than Boeing... I won't cry like you I will accept it as fact.

The reason I posted the FACTS as per 2001 is because of totally blind patriotic pro airbus people like yourself
 Nuts
I got sick and tired of hearing the same crap defending brash unsubstantiated crap that you read on these posts.

Accept the facts maybe 2002 will be different!!! Big grin


User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7370 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1380 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Can you explain the point of comparing the 717 against the A318 when you yourself say "and with no A318 yet there wasn't really any competition". (Edited quote to correct spelling)

I'm surprised you didn't compare the 747-400 against the A380 using your criteria for comparison!

David/MAN


User currently offlineEg777er From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 1837 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1378 times:

I think the competition goes something like this:

A318 v 717/737-600
A319 v 737-700
A320 v 737-800
A321 v 737-900
A310 v 757-200
A300 v 757-300/767-200/767-300
A330-200 v 767-400
A330-300 v 777-200A
A340-300 v 777-200B
A340-500 v 777-200LR
A340-600 v 747-400/777-300
A380-800 v 747-400 (?)



User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1372 times:

the key word David/MAN is Deliveries... how many years till A380 delivery?  Big grin

User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1305 times:


In terms of new orders, Airbus has had more than 50% of the market in 1999 and 2001, Boeing had more share in 2000.

In 2001, taking into account cancellations, Airbus had about 50.2% (in other words, a very slim majority) of airframe figures, but since Airbus sold many more widebodies they had about 55-60% in terms of value.

Orders become deliveries in a few years' time. Of course, since Boeing currently delivers more planes (reflecting the fact that a few years back they had the lion's share of orders) Boeing emphasizes deliveries, and since Airbus is doing well in orders they empnasize them.

The backlog is a list of future revenue, so it is in itself an extremely important asset for a manufacturer. Orders grow the backlog. Both Boeing and Airbus estimate that they will be roughly on par in deliveries (in terms of airframe numbers) in 2004-5 or so.



User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2470 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1251 times:

I see that Boeing lost a number of competitions in 2001, a key one being the huge $8.5 billion order from International Lease and Finance that went completely to Airbus. I feel that Boeing is gradually losing the battle with Airbus, which can still get 33% funding for new transport development from its' partners' governments. This gives Airbus pricing leverage that Boeing can't match, witness reports that Airbus was pricing the all-new, high tech A380 below that of Boeing's aborted 747X. Airbus went from nothing to parity with Boeing in little over 30 years; in another 30, Boeing may well be out of that business. So long as Airbus has this financial advantage, Boeing's hands are tied and its' market share keeps eroding. It still has strong sellers like the 737 and 777 but unless the Sonic Cruiser is a huge hit, I see Airbus becoming the dominant commercial aircraft maker in just a few years. I think the U.S. should either renegotiate the 1992 agreement with the European Union that allows Airbus to continue to receive these government loans or provide Boeing with the same type of loans. The U.S. needs to do something to reverse the decline of its' important commercial aircraft industry.

User currently offlineHkgspotter1 From Hong Kong, joined Nov 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1225 times:

This is not a A vs B..........................yeah OK.

User currently offlineOO-AOG From Switzerland, joined Dec 2000, 1426 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 1198 times:

Don't really understand the point of comparing aircraft that are not real competitors (747 vs A340 as an example) and where are the figures for the A380?.
I am glad that Boeing's sales figures are good though.
What is very significant for Airbus are the good sales figures of the A380 and new 'all Airbus fleet' orders such as the SAA deal, swapping from all B. to all A.



Falcon....like a limo but with wings
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 4161 posts, RR: 36
Reply 24, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1184 times:

AvObserver, Boeing is allowed to get the same 33% Airbus can apply for, and they do it. This is part of the greement you mentioned, both sites are allowed to get the same.

And many people in this forum seem to forget that Boeing gets its subsidies in the form of military orders, just to mention the B767 Tanker deal which has been cited several times to be far above a fair value. These are direct subsidies, at least in Europe. Don´t know how you would call them.

BTW, anyone able to tell me why we have THREE A vs B discussions within three days??

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
25 2cn : And many people in this forum seem to forget that Boeing gets its subsidies in the form of military orders, just to mention the B767 Tanker deal which
26 M27 : Flying Tiger: I believe you are wrong about Boeing getting the same 33% government "loan" that Airbus gets. Give me an example where the government ha
27 Post contains links Flying-Tiger : M27, read carefully: they are ALLOWED to get it, when they don´t apply for it or the government refuses it it is their problem, not Airbus´. Seems t
28 M27 : Flying Tiger: So then you agree that your statement "and they do it" is incorrect! Give me an example of where it occurred or don't say it.
29 Post contains links and images Boeing767-300 : OO-AOG Don't really understand the point of comparing aircraft that are not real competitors (747 vs A340 as an example) and where are the figures for
30 David_itl : How many A318s have been delivered? David/MAN
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