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Guns IN The Flight Deck  
User currently offlineUal777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1909 times:

we can now breath a sigh of releif,us officials will not let pilots carry firearms in the cockpit.

this is good news for all, and i know some will not feel some of our joys.
let the forum know how you feel.







ual 777 contrail


63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBoeing757/767 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1884 times:

I am relieved of this. Like guns in homes, the dangers of guns in cockpits far outweigh any benefits.


Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
User currently offlineUal777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1879 times:

i agree,and some of these so called professionals cave under pressure like the rest of us.all we need is a scared pilot at 39,000ft with a gun.




IMO




ual 777 contrail


User currently offlineJjbiv From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1875 times:

The only thing worse than a scared pilot with a gun is a disabled pilot being removed from the controls of Afghanistan's newest guided missile system.

There are risks inherent in letting people fly aircraft full of other people and their property. There are also risks inherent in weapons of ANY kind. American's need a spine and a willingness to accept responsibility and risk before and REAL progress beyond the cheap facade we now have will be made.

joe


User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1871 times:

I trust pilots enough to fly me around and I would trust them enough to carry a gun if they received proper training. Add another item to the list of things Bush has done to hack me off.


"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineCapt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

Well, I'd like to be convinced first (if at all possible) of the merits of aircrew being armed; my instincts tell me it isn't a good idea, and that it is better that the aircrew remain in the flightdeck at all times, whilst attempts are made to prevent freaks from boarding an aircraft in the first place.

User currently offlineEGFF From UK - Wales, joined Sep 2001, 2201 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1861 times:

For the sake of the pilots i would say that a gun in the cockpit would be suitable, if they can keep intruders out then there will be no hijackings....just my view  Smile
EGFF



All together or not at all
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

757 300.

I'm 6'2 240lbs. I would have no problem taking a weapon from some 100lb female pilot as she walks from gate to gate. Why would you introduce weapons in a secure enviroment? The doors will be bullet proof eventually.
If someone gives you a problem in back, turn it upside down.
This is why we don't let prison guards carry weapons inside. Criminal/Terrorist would love for someone to carry in the weapons for them.


User currently offlineMlsrar From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1417 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1841 times:

I am relieved of this. Like guns in homes, the dangers of guns in cockpits far outweigh any benefits.

I believe the topic was limited to cockpits, not homes. A post like that is ripe for deletion.




I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
User currently offlineFlyingbronco05 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3840 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1835 times:

I, too, am against guns in the cockpit. Not worth it. Glad to hear it was resolved.


Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1828 times:

I agree with Padcrasher. By letting pilots have guns, you are solving a hijacker's #1 logistical problem. The people who planned the 9/11 attacks are genocidal not merely homicidal. What if the hijackers grabbed the infants on a plane and threatened to kill them all if the pilot didn't surrender his/her weapon? What is a pilot to do? He/she cannot surrender the gun in theory. But faced with actual situation, what would one do? There are hundreds of bad scenarios that come out of having guns on a plane. How would the government regulate it? Resources are strained as is.

Mlsrar, you must be joking about the 'ripe for deletion' business. Right?


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13218 posts, RR: 77
Reply 11, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1824 times:

Very sensible, the focus of security should be to prevent the hi-jackers getting on in the first place.
Better cockpit doors and cabin crew training also.


User currently offlineHkg82 From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2002, 1298 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1834 times:

I personally thought it was a bad idea. I'm glad they've ruled to not allow pilots to carry guns with them on duty. It's not necessary to arm the flight crew. A gun in the cockpit (say that over & over again, sounds very disconcerting) would most likely cause needless distraction & anxiety and that would negatively impact the pilot's performance. And even if the pilots were comfortable with this, just what would having a gun in the cockpit accomplish? Instead why not focus resources on reinforcing the cockpit doors to strengthen them & make them bulletproof, so that no unauthorized person could gain access into the cockpit? There are better ways to deal with the issue of air safety than having to resort to arming pilots.

I’m a realist & understand this is a sensitive topic in the US, but I hope people can understand my viewpoint. If the DOT did allow pilots to carry firearms, I would’ve been disappointed but would’ve understood their reasoning. I just think it’s not the right path to take in tackling air safety.

Hkg82.






User currently offlineCMK10 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 513 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1798 times:

I think pilots should have been given the option to have guns. There should be one gun in the cockpit, locked up and only the captian and first officer have the key, the gun is NOT removed from the aircraft.
DC-10's Forever



"Traveling light is the only way to fly" - Eric Clapton
User currently offlineMD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1810 times:

Does anyone one here realize that guns were allowed in US cockpits until the 1970's? Many, many pilots carried personal sidearms. Up until the 1950's pilots were REQUIRED to be armed if they carried the US mail. So it's been done before and I've NEVER heard any instance of an accidental discharge or any other supposed grave danger. Military pilots carry loaded sidearms into combat and have since the airplane was invented. And I've never heard of an aircraft lost due to a accidental pistol discharge.

What would a gun in the cockpit accomplish? Deterrence. Terrorists will be less inclined to rush a cockpit door knowing they face a gun on the other side. And should they chose to rush a cockpit the strapped in flight crew will actually have a chance to live.

Taking a pistol from a "100lb female pilot" as she walks down the concourse will not be easy if the sidearms are issued for each flight or kept on the aircraft. There are logistical procedures that can make sure the firearms stay where they need to be.

UAL 777 Contrail - You are a pilot basher. Your "so called professionals cave under pressure" comment is typical of other bits you have written. What's the problem? Do we make too much money? Was a pilot mean to you?

Padcrasher. "turn it upside down"? Are you aware that a jetliner cannot be yanked around like a fighter? Excessive manoeuvring to disable terrorists will probably kill everyone on board when the airframe breaks up or the wings come off. You just can't split-S a 767.

If offered the training to carry a sidearm I do not know if I will accept. (The program as proposed is voluntary.) I really have made up my mind since it is all talk just now. BUT I know it would be a deterrent. AND I trust my fellow airman.





User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1780 times:

This is a typical American way to deal with a problem - 'ahh just stick a gun in the cockpit and everything will be ok'- WAKE UP - it's this attitude that caused the problems in the first place....when will you realise that fighting fire with fire only gets you burned......


"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineBA DC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2001, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1774 times:

I agree completely with Leezyjet, this is typical American response, i.e. just shoot it or give someone a gun and everything is ok. It must also be remembered that putting a gun aboard the cabin of a civil aircraft is illegal in a number of countries and therefore even if this was made law it could only be operated domestically...

User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1751 times:

Thanx BA DC-10....I'm just waiting for the yanks to see my post - should get the sparks flying Big grin

Was just thinkin.....In most Cockpit's, there is a rather large fire-axe - if the crew don't get chance to reach for that - how they going to get chance to reach for a gun ??? anyone actually thought of that ???



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineUal777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1740 times:

md88captain,
i am not a complete pilot basher,i work with pilots on a daily basis and i see the way they behave and i have formed my own opinions of that particular job group.if you dont like it then dont respond.i will give my opinion of a topic without feeling like i may be making a few people angry.and i would hope you would feel free to express yourself with writing your opinions for all of us to see.

when a pilots ego is bigger than his paycheck then i have a problem with them.the way agents at UNITED and other airlines that i have friends working for get treated by pilots should not surprise you.this isnt when grampa flew the old super connies when flying was a very prestigious way to travel.pilots have braught it upon themselves,they are in fact overpaid.an i jeoulus of them,no not really.between my wife and i both working for the airline and a few real estate investments we are doing fine.

an i bitter? yes maybe a little. "summer from hell" ring a bell? thanks to UAL'S lovely and very forgetful pilots, we as CSR'S went through the wringer for them.yes i guess i am in a way a pilot basher.and by your name md88captain i havent had the pleasure of dealing with you.but i will say when you want me to issue an omc card you will always find it in your heart to call me sir.when you dont need a thing......well you will ignore me like i dont exsist.so yes,most of you fly boys do irritate me,will i still help you if you need help?sure i dont have anything against you persay just when you don the stripes and let your ego fly.


and like the last post before me said,we as americans do result to force in these situations.i disagree with the comments made by leezyjet,if these planes would have slammed into buckingham palace or another landmark those comments wouldnt have been made.your BA,VS,BD pilots would have maybe said the same thing about carry guns.
cheers, ual 777 contrail


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1728 times:

Oh %%$$%$&!

Here come the America bashers again. You do you realize this measure was turned down?

Maybe we should take our lessons on protecting people from the Danish military?


User currently offlineFlymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7187 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1707 times:

First all aircraft should have bullet proof doors like Jet Blue. Then like UA the pilots should have Stung guns or som sort of protection in the Airplane. And what about the fire extingisher in the cockpit. And if none of these things work wich is very unlikely then i would have guns. But only with proper trainning.

Excuse my spelling.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineSoku39 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1797 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1697 times:

I personally think it was a good decision to not give pilots guns. Only bad things could come of it. A stun gun maybe but if you want to secure it correctly that means its gonna take time to get it unsecured and fire to fire it even if a pilot had a fast reaction time.

Plus what do you think the odds that terrorists are gonna try this again if I were them I'd keep it random. Spend money and time strengthening other infrastructure



The Ohio Player
User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1653 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1692 times:

If all this bad stuff would happen if the flight deck had a gun, why didn't it happen in the 1930s when pilots on airmail routes were required to carry a gun to protect the mail?

Is guess it really better to chop a guy to death with a crash axe, if you can. That has a certain "Braveheart" mediaeval quality to it.


User currently offlineFokker Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1685 times:

I believe most of our pilots are military reservists or retired military. They are already trained in the proper use of firearms. It would not have been a big deal for
them to carry. As a mechanic that picks up and delivers several aircraft a day at the gates. I have lost count of how many crash axes I have had to remove from between the captain's seat and the center pedestal. It's obvious that the flight crews want to be armed, but the U.S. Government has again bowed down to the vocal minority.

To BA DC-10
When Hitler decided that he wanted London for a summer retreat. The Brits came crying to us for arms. Individual U.S. citizens came to their rescue by shipping them their own personal firearms. When the unpleasantries were over the British Government
AGAIN disarmed their loyal subjects. For being such a cultured bunch, you sure are slow learners.


User currently offlineDelta737 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 516 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (12 years 4 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

Umm, wow.

If you're afraid of a pilot caving under pressure, I guess I wouldn't suggest hopping on an airliner ever again!

You know, lots of pressure in the cockpit.

Doug Taylor


25 Azjubilee : You know, in typical airliners.net fashion this thread has taken a turn for the worse. It has turned into a pilot bashing political debate over a mute
26 XFSUgimpLB41X : I am all for guns being allowed in teh cockpit. Number 1... they pilots are not going to have them at their side... one will be stored in the cockpit.
27 Toda,Reisinger : El-Al pilots have no weapon. There are armed sky marshalls on every El-Al flight, and the cockpit doors are reinforced and locked.
28 Pilot1113 : Myth 1: The cockpit doors currently are or will be bulletproof and fortified. Reality: Only 1 airline, JetBlue Airways, has fully fortified their cock
29 Positive rate : I think 1 firearm in the cockpit would be acceptable. It doesn't have to be a gun firing real bullets- what about rubber bullets? This would ensure th
30 Delta737 : Personally, I wanted the option of a firearm. It wouldn't be used until the butthole tries to enter the cockpit. Once the cockpit is breached, BAM! Ta
31 SailorOrion : hmmm....what good is a gun if there are a couple of hijackers with several hundred hostages?? SailorOrion
32 Pilot1113 : >>what good is a gun if there are a couple of hijackers with several hundred hostages?? For starters, the hijackers are always going to have to their
33 Delta737 : Sailor Orion- What good is a gun with several hijackers and several hundred hostages you ask? It means that if he attempts to come crashing through my
34 Post contains links Keesje : We trust airline pilots (a good majority anyhow) to fly F-16s with live missles, why can't we trust them with a simple handgun? Pilots are just peopl
35 BA DC-10 : Clearly we wouldnt have had people flying planes into buckingham palace, probably because we never used to let people with four inch blades board plan
36 Joni : I'm delighted that so many here don't approve of the gun-in-cockpit idea. I was expecting a more receptive mood for this initiative. For the record,
37 Eugdog : Guns in the Flight Deck This is a classic example of shutting the doors after the horses have bolted. Hijacking is not a realistic option any more. Ho
38 Post contains images Leezyjet : VS also have re-inforced cockpit doors (first airline in world to do it after 11/09)...and just today have announced that they will be installing cctv
39 Ptica2000 : No way. Pilots can even not react so fast and shoot the introoder. I think that bulletproof cockpit wall is enough. If some terorist has a wish to blo
40 Delta737 : I wish we could ask one of the murdered pilots if they'd support legislation to put guns in the cockpit. What do you figure their answer would be? I r
41 FDXmech : Politically correct solutions went out the window on 9/11. I'm absolutedly disgusted and shocked with this decision. Just one less impediment to these
42 FDXmech : This is a typical American way to deal with a problem - 'ahh just stick a gun in the cockpit and everything will be ok'- WAKE UP - it's this attitude
43 Leezyjet : FDXmech It's the attitude that america is the best and tries to be the world's police and the rest of the world should live it's life the way america
44 Galaxy5 : well, USAF crews are armed for this very reason to prevent hijackings but we do go through a course and are required to qualify every year, also there
45 Padcrasher : Leezy, you need to keep your political views out of this aviation forum. Somebody from the UK complaining about the US being the World's policeman. Yo
46 FDXmech : It's the attitude that america is the best and tries to be the world's police and the rest of the world should live it's life the way america does....
47 Joni : FDXmech, Let's keep this aviation-related. There are many newsgroups where people can mourn WWII and its 55 million casualties. With regard to the pr
48 FDXmech : Joni I suggest you single out the flame bait posters/posts. Singling out the responders is misguided on your part. Though if my view coincided with yo
49 Eugdog : As a Brit I can assure the American contributors to this site at the Anti-american sentiments is from a very small minority. Because Switzerland is ne
50 Dragogoalie : I am 100% for carrying guns in the cockpit. I am against them on the ground, but after watching thousands of people die on TV right before my eyes bec
51 Widebody : Pilot1113, You can be fully assured that all doors will be bulletproof before 30th April next......be also reassured that all the FAA regulations and
52 Eugdog : regarding Dragogoalie comments about guns of the flight deck - he makes the valid point that the hijackers might turn on the passengers in order to fo
53 XFSUgimpLB41X : Unfortunately, Eugdog...violent maneuvers are prohibited by the airlines now to thwart hijacking attempts. At high altitude, doing manuevers like that
54 Eugdog : As long as the gun remains in the flight deck and only used as a last resort - then I can live with that. But even a rapid descent or a steep bank is
55 N79969 : I agree with whoever said that the next attack will not involve a hijacking. They played that card. I think all of this attention on guns in the cockp
56 Pilot1113 : >>I agree with whoever said that the next attack will not involve a hijacking. They played that card. I think all of this attention on guns in the coc
57 Pilot1113 : You and I both know that when it comes to enforcement of their rules, the FAA has a sad and tragic history of not enforcing the rules they make. We ha
58 Ual777contrail : dragogoalie, i wil voice my opinion,that may offend you and others reading it.i did in fact voice a sgh of releif when i found this out. 1)i dont thin
59 Widebody : Pilot1113, i don't doubt the FAA's past, i agree with you 100%, but in the case of cockpit reinforcement, this is their new 'project', something to ke
60 N79969 : Pilot113, I did not mean the issue should be ignored by saying it is yesterday's problem. I wouldn't compare a gun to a crash axe either. I agree with
61 Pilot1113 : I'll believe it when I see it. I don't think strengthening the cockpit doors is "after the fact." It could prevent the aggressive drunk from entering
62 Leezyjet : Neil, also that guy on the BA 744 last year en-route to Kenya.... he tried to claim damages from the airline because some of the pax beat him up whils
63 Ual777contrail : leezyjet, why would you hijack an airplane out of europe.isnt the fight with the USA? you act as if european security is tighter? i dont get the comme
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