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Lufthansa Flights From/to Denver 110% Booked  
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2678 times:

This is Lufthansa's second summer in Denver. The airline started nonstop flights a year ago in March. Asked at what percentage capacity the Denver flights are booked this summer, Tollar paused before answering. "It's very frightening," she said. "The numbers are about 110 percent right now. We're encouraging people to fly other gateways because we can't carry the demand right now.

I just found this article in the Denver Post which talks about how full Lufthansa's flights out/to Denver are for this coming summer.

The full article is here.
http://www.denverpost.com/framework/0%2C1918%2C36%257E10490%257E626325%2C00.html

Before 9/11, Lufthansa was planning on operating the 747 during the summer season due to the extremely high loads they experienced last summer.

Looking good for Lufthansa. Hopefully these high numbers will help attract Air France.

Regards


"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCarnoc From China, joined Oct 2001, 875 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2637 times:

Wish next time, my elder sister can take a Lufthansa nonstop flight out of Denver...

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2617 times:

Perhaps klm should "help" to solve this problem

Daily DEN- AMS/Europe

good idea ?


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

Keesje,

Northwest has Denver on it's "target" list for AMS service when the A330s start rolling in.

I don't think Denver will ever see KLM. It'd be nice as I absolutely love KLM, but it just won't happen.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2592 times:
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If the demand is that high, why doesn't LH just increase capacity i.e. upgrade planes or add more frequency? Or is there some restriction to this?

Arsenal@LHR



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4150 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2588 times:

Arsenal: Lufthansa has one big problem: they are short on intercont planes. No A340s available, the reactiveated birds have all headed to Munich as far as I know and even there the initial planned schedule had been somewhat cut to get more destinations on stream, even more A340s will be based there when they come online.

In FRA all B747s are based plus a good couple of A340-200/300s. The A340-600s will take another few months until they roll in and the first duty will be to get rid of the reactivated B747-200s which means that at least the first two A346 can´t be used for expanding service.

Intercon traffic has increased a good deal faster then expected and they are now getting short and shorter with capacity, only narrow-bodies are still parked to date. Maybe another German member can enlight us a bit further.

110% is quite high, even when there are a few seats still available in First and Business. Let´s see, maybe re-activating the last two B747-200s stored in Marana?

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2585 times:

Arsenal@LHR,

They last year they were planning on operating the 747 for this summer. However, after 9/11 those plans were canceled. They were probably expecting that flights to Denver would start to do quite poorly.

I think Lufthansa would rather save it's 747s for extremely high priority routes such as Chicago, New York, etc.

British Airways did fly 747s for most of the year to Denver before they were moved to LHR.

Sure miss seeing those birds.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2578 times:

There ya go, an expert from Germany explained it for you, Arsenal.  Big grin

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2569 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Thanks for that explanation guys,

I was wondering LH could have sent it's A346's to DEN, but obviously they dont arrive in time. Imagine if LH had 767's in it's fleet, they could have complemented their 744's or A340's to DEN or elsewhere.

Rdgs
Arsenal@LHR



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4150 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2558 times:

Condor (DE) could do it but I think this is a very unlikelyoption as DE needs their planes, too. LH could do some wet-leases but I doubt that, more likely that they will take up this or that second-hand opportunity or do it by shifting planes within STAR. Problem could be the 6% wet-lease barrier.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2543 times:

United operated a seasonal FRA-DEN flight last summer on a 777 and it still wasn't enough to cope with the demands.

It's not coming back this summer however. I guess United doesn't feel that this year is a good time as a result of the 9/11 attacks, although Lufthansa's high loads should show that they can succeed.

They however did hint that the seasonal flight will be back next summer.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2480 times:

Condor did fly DUS-DEN for a while ago.

I believe it was a scheduled charter for a vacation package or something.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineAFa340-300E From France, joined May 1999, 2084 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2456 times:

Hello,


During the early 1990s, no European airline was present at DIA, but the Dutch charter airline, and Continental Airlines (CO) had dropped its Honolulu (HNL)–DEN–London (LGW) leaving Denver's travelers with the only solution of a first connection before reaching Europe. However, rather than to court many potential operators, the airport authorities were advised to focus on a few key operators which dominate intercontinental gateways that could generate traffic to/from Denver. This would be the start of a domino development, with other airlines then coming one after another as DIA's appeal would increase.

[...]

Besides London, DIA also looked at continental Europe and was expecting Frankfurt - Rhein/Main (FRA) to become its second destination thanks to the Star Alliance partnership between UA and Lufthansa (LH). DIA was hoping both carriers would carry on their strategy to link their respective hubs, possibly with multiple flights a day. LH was therefore heavily courted by DIA and was even proposed US$1 million in advertising incentives if it would launch a flight.

Eventually, LH announced in July 2000 it retained DEN and Phoenix (PHX) as it next US destinations. The service to DEN started on 25 March 2001 with A340-300s. As part of the deal, Lufthansa received US$1 million in marketing incentives, and had its landing fees waived for US$700,000.

LH446 FRA-DEN 13:05 15:35 - Daily
LH447 DEN-FRA 17:35 11:15 - Daily

Source: Air Transport Business


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Photo © Mark Abbott
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Photo © Ahmad Sadi



Best regards,
Alain Mengus


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2442 times:

When did British Airways start serving PHX?

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineAFa340-300E From France, joined May 1999, 2084 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2433 times:

Hello,

This would require to be confirmed, but my information are that British Airways started a service from LGW to PHX on 01 July 1996.


Best regards,
Alain Mengus


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2371 times:

Thanks for that.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineJC5280 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 530 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2308 times:

UA's flight from DEN-FRA was dropped due to low yield. LH is struggling with this as well as most of these flights are booked full in economy class with cheapo tickets only. Many of the sales during the last few months account for that. Also, big companies such as Hewlett Packard, which have offices in Denver and Frankfurt, have reduced their travel budgets i.e. where they used to say, go ahead and book a full fare ticket in coach/business on UA/LH, now they must price shop. Ouch for us in the airline industry.

Word around DEN is that the FRA flight will come back next year with a *possibility* of LHR service (I think a 767-300).


User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6659 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2305 times:

Word around DEN is that the FRA flight will come back next year with a *possibility* of LHR service (I think a 767-300).
DEN-LHR can't be done non-stop unless Open Skies occurs


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2291 times:

JC5280,

UA's flight from DEN-FRA was dropped due to low yield.

UA's flight was only summer seasonal. That's why it was dropped. The summer season had ended.

As for yields on Lufthansa's flights, they are quite good according to a friend of mine. This summer, yields are also going to be even higher than last summer.

If you want to get a general idea of the yields, go to Lufthansa's website and check out the fares for FRA-DEN and compare them to some other destinations in the US on the same date.

Now this doesn't really state how yields are on a route, but it does give you a general idea.

When you do a search, make sure you have "Economy Best Buy" selected under the class.

Like Donder said, LHR-DEN can't happen until Open Skies is reached OR DEN is added to the Bermuda II.

United has been wanting to fly LHR-DEN on a 777 for quite some long time. They already applied for the rights to fly the route IF Open Skies is reached or Denver is added to the Bermuda II.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineJonPaulGeoRngo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2251 times:

Don't read more into this article than need be...it states that seats in the two premeir cabins are still available...doesn't mean the flights are oversold to 110% capacity.

User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2190 times:

maybe we'll see a MUC-DEN flight then earlier or later? All MUC-US flight do very well when going to a UA hub (IAD, ORD, SFO, LAX did as well).

SailorOrion


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (11 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2100 times:

"I don't think Denver will ever see KLM. It'd be nice as I absolutely love KLM, but it just won't happen."

I think between NWA & KLM it is just a capasity question. They can use a 220 seat 767 upto a 440 seat 743 like this :


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Josef P. Willems



They have anti trust immunity for their joint venture. They could together decide what fits best, sharing all costs & benefits.


User currently offlineZeus01 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 744 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (11 years 11 months 23 hours ago) and read 2003 times:

Do you actually think most of the people booking DEN-FRA flights called LH?? Probably not. Id bet most was done through UA.

I to have heard NW is looking to start A330 service out of DEN, but thats just a wild rumor I heard from a girl whos dad works for NW. KL seems to be giving a lot more of its routes to NW this year than last. I wonder why.


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (11 years 11 months 23 hours ago) and read 1997 times:

JonPaulGeoRngo,

If you check in June, you will see a few days where First and Business are fully booked too.

These days international routes are not filling up very well in the premium cabins as in the past. Businesses are fed up with paying high fares, so these days they are putting them in Economy. This is an issue for almost all transatlantic routes from the US. Not just Denver.

SailorOrion,

United relatively recently started DEN-IAD-MUC. I don't think we'll ever see it non-stop in the near future.

Zeus01,

Only about 10-20% of the plane is reserved for United bookings. That's not much at all.

Northwest does have a "target" list for cities to serve from AMS when the A330s start rolling in. It includes several cities such as PHX and DEN. So it is no rumour. It's on there "target" list, so that does mean they are considering it.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (11 years 11 months 23 hours ago) and read 1987 times:

I can't see Air France or Northwest/KLM being as successful as Lufthansa/United, which has the benefit of a huge United hub in Denver. It makes more sense for Air France to fly to Delta's hubs...maybe Salt Lake City. Without hub feed in Denver and a relatively small market in the Denver area, I can't see Northwest/KLM making it at all.

25 BA : Bicoastal, I can't see Air France or Northwest/KLM being as successful as Lufthansa/United, which has the benefit of a huge United hub in Denver. It m
26 Bicoastal : Hi BA, How many of the Lufthansa booked passengers transfer to another United flight in Denver? Though the United codeshare seats on the Lufthansa equ
27 BA : Bicoastal, How many of the Lufthansa booked passengers transfer to another United flight in Denver? Though the United codeshare seats on the Lufthansa
28 BA : Don't forget also that British Airways flies to Denver with no feed whatsoever. As a result, the flight is almost completely O&D. British Airways has
29 SailorOrion : Please do not forget that FRA isn't a small airport, its one of the few critical hubs in world air traffic, and not only a transit point for people fr
30 BA : Very well said, SailorOrion. Basically as long as there is enough feed at one end, the flights will do fine. Denver is a large enough market to suppor
31 MAH4546 : JC5280 is correct. UA experienced paltry yields on DEN-FRA, it has been stated many times. Wether or not the flight returns is yet to be seen, but yie
32 BA : UA's seasonal DEN-FRA always got the overbooked passengers on the Lufthansa flight which is why the yields sucked. Next time UA and LH should both con
33 OA412 : It is all well and good to argue that SLC cannot handle international traffic because of its relatively small O&D offering (by the way, SLC is not 1/2
34 BA : OA412, The 2000 United States Government Census showed that the Salt Lake City Metro has a population of 1.33 million people. The Denver metro had a p
35 OA412 : I know what the census says. The census, however, does not take into account a very large portion of the population just south of SLC. That brings SLC
36 MAH4546 : In addition, AF has been looking at FLL-CDG, which, to be entirely honest, has much more potential than DEN-CDG, IMO. However, it is all rumours. We'l
37 OA412 : I agree with you there MAH. The US has taken a back seat to AF expansion in Asia and Africa. Frankly, with the demise of SN, SR, and the reduced Afric
38 MAH4546 : OA412, of course FLL's runways can handle flights to Europe. Martinair flew FLL-AMS in the past (they have sinced moved to MIA), Laker Airways II flew
39 BA : OA412, I know what "part" you are talking about. Provo, however Provo is considered a completely seperate metro which it is. If you include Provo, the
40 OA412 : BA said: If you include Provo, then I guess I can include Colorado Springs, Boulder, and Longmont which will bring Denver's population to more than 3.
41 BA : OA412, The fact is Provo is a seperate city. No matter how close it is to Salt Lake City, the fact remains is it's a seperate city. Which is why it wa
42 BA : Also OA412, If Airlines really cared so much about serving there alliance partner's hubs. Then Denver would have all the Star Alliance carriers and SL
43 OA412 : OK this is getting way off topic but I'll go ahead and respond anyway. I never, ever meant to argue that SLC metro is not 1.33 million. It is! Actuall
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