AA-Ray From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1959 times:
American annoucned today that they will remove two (2) rows of Coach seating on all aircraft's starting with all the Domestic Flt to be completed by November of this year and all the International Flt by the end of 2001. This means a total removal for some 7,000 plus seat system wide. This add almost 5 to 6 inches per row in the Coach cabin on all aircraft!!!!!!!
Any thought's on this major change to the leg room in Coach????
Bicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1684 times:
United already did this for their premier/high mileage flyers by creating an "Economy Plus" section. I'm sure the American's additional legroom will be in the forward section of economy, too, and only for their premier flyers.
United/Star Alliance is leaving American in the dust. American does nothing "innovative" on its own.
Purdue Cadet From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1673 times:
Sorry Bicoastal. American's enhancement will cover the entire aircraft. Every seat in the main cabin will hae thencreased pitch, which wil range from 34-36 inches. 7,200 seats wil be removed to increase pitch on 75,000 remaining seats. This means that about 12% of the seats will be removed, which is more than would be rquired for a few rows of premium Y.
Purdue Cadet From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1661 times:
Here's an exerpt from Don Carty's comments at the press confrence that tells us how much of the seats will have expanded legroom:
"N A BOLD STEP THAT WILL AFFECT HUNDREDS OF ROUTES AND TENS OF MLLIONS OF PASSENGERS ACROSS OUR ENTIRE U.S. AND INTERNATIONAL ROUTE SYSTEM, WE ARE GOING TO REMOVE AS MANY AS TWO ROWS OF SEATS – YOU HEARD THAT CORRECTLY, REMOVE TWO ROWS OF SEATS -- FROM MORE THAN 700 JET AIRCRAFT. THAT’S THE ENTIRE FLEET. THEN, WE ARE GOING TO USE THE SPACE ONCE OCCUPIED BY THE SEATS WE REMOVE TO PROVIDE MORE ROOM FOR PASSENGERS THROUGHOUT THE COACH CABIN.
NOT JUST IN PART OF THE CABIN, MIND YOU, BUT THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE COACH SECTION – ROW AFTER ROW AFTER ROW."
The release also says tha 98% of seats will have pitch of33" or more (ibove industry standard of 32") and 58% will have at least 34". The only two fleet types notbing edone, which account for the 2% that won't be above industry standard, are the DC-10 and the MD-11.
Hypermike From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1001 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1639 times:
There are two different strategies going on here. First, you have the AA strategy of making the coach cabin tolerable, regarless of where you sit. Second, you have the UAL strategy of sucking up to the frequent flyers to make them feel more special.
I think American hit the nail on the head here. They're not going to raise the fares on any routes just to recover the losses from this. They're hoping that more people will fly American because the coach cabin will be more comfortable.
I think UA missed the boat, folks. Let's face it, after you hit a certain level of any frequent flyer program, you tend to forget that coach even exists. As a high-level flyer, you get upgraded so often that it doesn't matter. If the upgrade isn't complimentary, you use a certificate or pay the fee to upgrade your full-fare coach seat for first class. For a high-level flyer, that fee is usually between 25-40 dollars, and that's nothing to the business traveler. If you're working on the flight, most companies will pay for the upgrade. Unless it's a long-haul flight, nobody actually pays for first class tickets anymore.
Cgn From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1632 times:
Maybe American already found out that in average of all their flights together they would not even miss the two rows per aircraft since many (most?) flights are not completly booked out.
I like their idea very much and next time I visit the US, I will defenetly look for an American-flight to support this step.
JZ From United States of America, joined May 1999, 252 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1622 times:
I am very positive about this move by AA.
I think the industry is overdue for a change like this. In the 60s and early 70s, economy class on most airlines are more spacious than today. They used to have 2x4x2 seating, instead of 3x4x3 or 2x5x2 on the widebodies. And the seat pitch was wider. Then the energy crisis hit. The first reaction for the airlines was to reduce the seat pitch and try to squeeze more people on a flight. Once the airlines realize that they can get away with such dense seating, it's there to stay; until today.
I am sure more than one airlines have contemplated doing what AA decided to do today, but nobody has the guts to do it. It does require a certain size and global influence to do it. If Southwest does it, no international airlines will be impacted. Even US majors that don't compete with WN will be impacted. Yes, TW tried it. But TW was (and still is) in bad financial shape; and it didn't have the clout as one of the largest airlines in the US with such a extensive global alliance as AA. In fact, I think there are only 5 airlines in the world that are powerful enough to do it and make a difference. AA, UA and DL can each do it on its own; and NW and KL, with their combined force, an attempt it also. It's a brilliant move for AA to do it.
AAa300 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1616 times:
Its true TWA did try this a while back with their "Comfort Class." I think it did poorly because of a little bad timing. The enviroment in US avaition today is very different. As far as AA copying UAL thats not true. It's in fact backwards. A few years back AA had "Executive Coach" where a few rows were removed for extra room for VIP's and frequent fliers. It was, however, confusing for the regular coach passengers who wondered why the first 4 rows got hot towels, meals, etc.. and they didn't. I think this is going to be great for US avaition and have the rest of the industry playing catch up real fast. Just my 2cents.....
Purdue Cadet From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1609 times:
As Cgn pointed out, the 2 rows really shouldn't be missed... AA hasn average load factor of about 70%, meaning that, on average, the loss of 6% of seats will not be that bad. Some of the constanly full routes may be affected, though.
CannedSpam From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1609 times:
WELL WELL! So AA is going to roll out its new roomy coach seating a la TWA's failed Comfort Class with pitches from 34 to 36 inches.
Does anyone remember that ever financially-minded Bob Crandall specifically stated at one time that increasing seat pitch would NEVER bring the airline an increased net as increased revenue would not match the increased cost per seat mile due to the lost opportunity to fill those extra 6.4 percent of seats when the planes ARE flying full during busy times of the year and day. There were extensive studies done to arrive at this conclusion.
The only way, if the studies are NOT correct, for AA to gain a strategic AAvantage would be for no other airline to match AA's increase in seat pitch, giving it a strategic marketing advantage. However, if enough majors did would that be a bad thing? So let's theorize.
I think AA is betting that the rest of this highly competitive industry to follow in its footsteps. Some of the work is done as UA is already cutting its capacity by 3 percent with its Economy Plus product. Now, if US, DL, CO, (and other service minded majors) follow, we could see overall industry capacity being cut by 2 percent or so. Or so means the net affect after capacity additions planned within the industry and carriers such as NW or HP staying the course with their abysmal 31 inch pitch in coach.) Such a cut in overall capacity, allowing it to catch up with demand might prove more profitable for all carriers. But perhaps more for some and less for others.
If US and TW, who have amongst the highest costs follow the AA trend, they will effectively raise their seat mile costs....again...hopefully adding some incremental revenue per seat mile. However, AA gains another AAvantage, by further weakening these carriers because they are more exposed to low cost carriers. In other words, they must compete with AA and others with a full service product, but with SW on costs. *A NO WIN* This could be enough to put TW over the edge. (less capacity again)
Additionally, such an improvement in product reduces the strategic advantage in product carriers like Legend and Midwest Express have over full coach on AA. Also, it reduces the advantage of having more seats in first class for full fare upgrades...a la TWA.
In conclusion, looking at the big picture consequences of such a that the revolution will bring, I believe AA will win no matter what....certainly the spirit of CrAAndall is AAlive AAnd well, no mAAtter whAAt he sAAid in the pAAst.
FLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4510 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1610 times:
This is great and all, but AA will have to take out more than 2 rows of seats on the entire aircraft if they want to increase the seat pitch by their 4-6" "new" standards. The calculations are as follows:
For 36" pitch, the airline must take out one row of seats per 6 rows onboard (This, of course, only applies to Economy).
JMV From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 241 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1589 times:
There are a number of differences between AA's attempt and that of TWA's. If memory serves me, TWA was reorganizing under bankruptcy. They had a fiscal image problem that a little bit of extra leg room wasn't going to improve. That, and cash flow problems probably kept them from sticking with the experiment long enough to capture market share.
But, a more important element that will likely make AA's move successful, when TWA tried this, the federal government wasn't running around threatening the airlines with a passengers' bill of rights.
USAirways737 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1026 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (13 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1597 times:
It is interesting that this is getting so much attention on the news. When UA did this I didn't see anything about it on TV. But when AA did it, info about it was on Today, Nightly News, 5news, 6news, and presummably on the 10news. Why is AA getting all this credit for what UA started?
Purdue Cadet From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (13 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1572 times:
Another possible reason why American may have gotten more press, besides their better marketing, is that their plan will actually benefit the "common man". While United only improved their product for the special customers, they have left most passengers, infrequent travelers who pay discounted fares, out of the loop. Since American is improving its product for everyone in the main cabin, it is of more interest to the traveling public.
American 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3522 posts, RR: 13 Reply 21, posted (13 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1565 times:
Isn't that nice to hear?
I haven't read anyone's reply yet but I thing it's a good thing. The load factors will rise more easily because there are now fewer seats to fill and people will enjoy the extra leg room. Next week, American will introduce the first 129-seat Super 80. They've already increased the First Class cabin from 14 to 20 seats on the Super 80, not all of them but you'll most likely see that in you fly on an MD-80 from ORD to LGA or DFW, or DFW to LGA...I think.
Anyway, I'm pleased to hear this. I'm looking forward to see the new Super 80's with the new seats and cabin layout. American is also planning to do this on other aircraft types.
Purdue Cadet From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (13 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1563 times:
You would not need to pull out one row for every six to achieve this. The new standard pitch will likely be 34", which is 2" more than most seats have now. To accomplish this, AA needs remove only one row per 17 rows (1 row pulled=32" extra space... divided by 16 remaining rows= 2" per row.) Even going to a 35" pitch would require removing only one row per 10-11 rows (again, 1 row=32", divide by remaining rows= about 3" per row.) To get the 36" pitch that will be one some planes, then, will require removing 1 row per 9 rows (32" extra divided by eight remaining rows= 4" extra per row= 36" total.) The 777 has only 20 rows in the main cabin, meaning that AA can increase pitch by 3" if they remove one row. The 738 also has only 21 rows, and I don't know whether they will increase pitch on seats that already have more, such as emergency exit rows. These are just two examples of how removing only 2 rows of seats will be a substantial improvement.
Bicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (13 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1560 times:
The downside of fewer seats is that you will almost never have the center seat empty. So those large, fat and/or obese people with their rolls of fat falling into your personal space will still be a problem.
You may be able to stretch your legs, but you'll still have elbow room problems when you either eat or use your personal computer.
CALPilot From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 996 posts, RR: 14 Reply 24, posted (13 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1550 times:
Same story, just the dates, and names are changed. This has been done before, and it will be done again. In a few years some guy will say hay, lets put more seats on the airplane and charge less money, and we'll fill the airplane and make money. Then everyone in the board room will say wow, what a smart ideal. You wait, and see!!!
MD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8475 posts, RR: 13 Reply 25, posted (13 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1545 times:
Everyone always asks me, a 220 lb. 6'2 bandmember why I'm not on the football team, since I have the physique and the skills (I'm not because I enjoy marching too much. I play the clarinet). I have always prefered the MD-80 over the 737 because it seems to me that it has both greater seat width and a little bit more leg room (comparing the Delta 732 and 733 with the MD-88). I would love the extra legroom, but I simply need more seat width too. I'm not really all that bulky, but my shoulders/arms always touch the person I'm sitting next to. I really don't mind, but some of them might. Unfortunately, AA, DL, and UAL will fly to hell and back before they order 5 abreast 737/757s.