Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
AF : First European Airline In April  
User currently offlineToo low From Switzerland, joined Oct 2001, 55 posts, RR: 0
Posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1958 times:

According to AEA (RPK ASK Load Factor) :

AF 8308.9 10827.3 76.7
BA 7853.9 11286.1 69.6
LH 7541.0 9920.1 76.0
LX 2709.9 3910.0 69.3

AF is number 1 !


30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEmile From Netherlands, joined Nov 2000, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1937 times:

state aid you mean.....

User currently offlineTeva From France, joined Jan 2001, 1872 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

Emile,
I am very sad to read such a comment form a European.
You should know that a government can not give aids to an airline without the approval of the EU commission in Brussels.
And you should forget ideology to look at facts.
The most important is the management.
If you look at the early 90s, AF almost died because of a very poor management, and BA was one of the most profitable airlines in the world.
At this time, everyone was saying that AF problems were due to its status, and that only privatized airlines could be profitable, because of a better management.

Today, AF is the most profitable airline in Europe, the 3rd in the world, and BA is loosing lots of money....
The difference: two fantastic CEOs, chosen by the government: Mr Blanc and Spinetta., who have been able to change the mentality of the employees and redisign the services

I could also add that , thanks to the very good management of the private airline KLM, I lost my job in 92 (KLM force one of its subsidiary to fly F100 with 1 pax when it could have been full easily)



Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
User currently offlineAirDD From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 375 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1890 times:


TEVA,

BA never good any state money and AF was bailed out the government in 1995

Profit after subsidy is not something to be proud of




User currently offlineAF Cabin Crew From French Polynesia, joined Sep 1999, 1040 posts, RR: 33
Reply 4, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1885 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Ia Orana Teva !

Just note that Emile has always had the tendency to post irrelevant comments about Air France. He hates the airline with a great passion and anything he says about our national airline shouldn't be taken seriously.

Every one at Air France is very happy about the performance of the company. We weren't expecting such good results but we are all proud to have hard working CEO's and workforce. The flights are full we are seeing a n 80 to 85 % average load factors.
To prove it I just got back from IAD this morning on AF 039 and we had 9P 56J and 199 Y on our 777.
Everyone at Air France is willing to work hard and serve the company the best we can... and it shows !

Happy Flying,

AF Cabin Crew.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alain Mengus




Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1882 times:

BA & LH are performing as private companies while AF & LX are government-owned/heavily subsidied by the government. LH didn't get any money for their losses after the 11.9. so far, I don't know about BA. It's unfair to compare independent companies with airlines which have a whole state supporting them.

User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1878 times:

"The flights are full we are seeing a n 80 to 85 % average load factors."

versus

"According to AEA (RPK ASK Load Factor) :
AF 8308.9 10827.3 76.7"



User currently offlineAF Cabin Crew From French Polynesia, joined Sep 1999, 1040 posts, RR: 33
Reply 7, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1873 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Racko,
AEA has the 2001-2002 load factors. I should have put in my post that these are April and May results.
Now, I would like to ask any of you if you know what the money was used for ? Were there any conditions imposed on AF to get this money ? What the French government is holding of AF ? When was the last time AF received any money from the government ?

Happy Flying,

AF Cabin Crew.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alain Mengus




Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

"I would like to ask any of you if you know what the money was used for ?"

Well, paying employees, paying gas, paying planes...there are many things airlines spend money on.

"Were there any conditions imposed on AF to get this money ?"

I don't know.

"What the French government is holding of AF ?"

2000 figure was 76,5%.

"When was the last time AF received any money from the government ?"

Winter 2001/2002.


User currently offlineDutchwings From Netherlands, joined Jan 2001, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

They are a very good airline indeed , but please AF, give your planes some color!!!!!!!!!!!!

User currently offlineAF Cabin Crew From French Polynesia, joined Sep 1999, 1040 posts, RR: 33
Reply 10, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1852 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Racko !!!!!

My of my... Do I want to take you seriously now !

The money the airline got was used mainly to fund the retirement plans of most employees who were earning very, very, very decent salaries, some was used to lower the debts AF had.
In order for AF to get all of this, no more planes to be ordered until 1996, 5 full years without being able to order an aircraft, flying old ones, every majority stake in most airlines AF owned had to be sold and gone were TAT, SABENA. No expansion was aloud, no new routes, nothing ! AF was forced to live of what it had. Christian blanc had to lower the cabin crew's wages by 30 % and increase the flying hours by 30 % !!! He renegotiated every single contract AF had with the caterer's, airports etc... With the money saved he launched a new product called Le Printemps d'Air France, in came the Euroconcept for European flights and the launch of l'Espace and Tempo products.
AS of today France is holding 53% of the airline. Should the actual government stay in place you will see that within a year AF will be a private airline as the transport ministry has expressed its intention to sell its shares in the airline.
Yes we got some money from the government post Septmeber 11. But all French airlines did and some others worldwide did also and this can not be qualified as state aid, but compensation and AF 's result do not take into account any of this money nor aircraft cession.

Happy Flying,

AF Cabin Crew


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alain Mengus





Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
User currently offlineCapt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1850 times:

Hi.

Indeed, AF received E55 million in compensation from France for the 9/11 effect. Low oil prices also helped.

Nevertheless, it remains the case, in my opinion, that AF provide a very good cabin service on long-distance flights; this is a fact, irrespective of who owns the airline. I flew AF last year to Angola from London, in Affaires-wow, what excellent attention from the cabin staff and very 'chic' service!

Of course in a business sense, it is unfair for airlines which compete with AF without state aid, but from a pax perspective, they are great!  Big thumbs up

Cheers


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1830 times:

What good news to hear. Since SkyTeam was formed AF has gone from 3rd largest in Europe to 1st. DL has done well to have them as a partner.

I have been told here in the US that BA has been hurt in ATL, BOS, WAS as the Delta frequent flyer base in these cities is opting to fly AF via CDG rather than BA via LON. The same for cargo as well, with DL's domestic widebodies and AF and KL frieghters, Skyteam continues to capture more market share in U.S exports.




User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1792 times:

AF has one very big advantage: CDG
CDG is a modern big (although totally messy) airport with enough room to let AF expand. Compare this to LHR and FRA and you know one of the main reasons why AF is doing so well.

LH is just trying to solve this problem by adding very many flights to MUC, however FRA stalls at the moment, and things in LHR wont get any better without another runway, T5 built or not.

If an airport like ORD can be slot-less, why cant big european hubs be as well??

SailorOrion


User currently offlineAFa340-300E From France, joined May 1999, 2084 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1765 times:

Hello,

It is very interesting to see what people just play by the rules and admit the airline has done well because it worked hard for it, and those who shamefully come up with the subsidy argument. Those people definetely know they are wrong, and they know their respective states have also helped their national flagcarrier.

Don't tell me giving an exclusivity at a terminal in an important airport, refusing to open up an airport to the competition, spying data from other airlines, etc. don't help airlines. If you want to make a comparison, then just put everything on the table and back up your statements with evidence.

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
Air Transport Business


User currently offlineTripple7 From Netherlands, joined Aug 1999, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1767 times:

Is LX fourth in Europe....or did Too Low not publish all the relevant load factors...what about Iberia, AlItalia, KLM, and SAS?

regards
tripple7


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1694 times:

AF received more the $ 4 billion in state aid in the last 12 years. French officials veto any actions against it in the E.C, supported by Italians and Spanish officials (surprise ?)

Lots of new aircraft were subisidized because they were "cleaner" and "more silent". The french government own AFs, CDG, part of Airbus and negotiates bilateral deals for AF.

All remaining serious french airlines were neutralized while the French government watched. AF domestic marketshare : 90% ?

Now they have some succes maybe AF wants to forget/re-write history ...

What France needs is a full strenght Low Cost airline operating from Paris and all major French city´s. Cut all in-visible subsidies and lets see how strong they are in the real world ...

Probably the government will block it somehow ......


User currently offlineFlpuck6 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2123 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1671 times:

For those of us capitalists, it is hard to give credit to a "public" airline. Not every airline has to be run according to capitalistic theories. What airline would France have if it didn't support Air France? Aeris is doing well, but only a charter company (a private one at that, if I remember correctly). Air Lib is still in the process of what, in my opinoin, will be a long restructuration. Euralair etc. = charter.

Gov't subsidies don't always work anyway...look at Swissair and Sabena.

But Air France definitely has its act together. They are capitalizing on opportunities that bring big returns. Their organization of CDG as a hub is a huge asset. What other airport has more room to expand? LHR, NOT. FRA, nope. CDG and AF will soon, if it is not already, be Europe's most important airport.



Bonjour Chef!
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1632 times:

Ever made transfer on CDG ?

:-(

Obviously not ..


User currently offlineTriStar500 From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 4695 posts, RR: 42
Reply 19, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1628 times:

I disagree to the argument that FRA has no room to expand. The airport is getting another (4th) runway by 2007/8 and another terminal (located south of the main runways at the former US air base) by the same time.
On the other hand, according to the current political statements (made by Monsieur Jospin, so this might change soon), CDG has a capacity cap of 55 million passenger annually and there is still the intention to impose a night flight ban on the airport.



Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
User currently offlineAFa340-300E From France, joined May 1999, 2084 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1610 times:

Hello Chris,

France is not the USSR of Western Europe  Smile/happy/getting dizzy It's not because the French economy is an exact compy of the what the Anglo-Saxons do that it cannot be capitalism!

And don't tell me you don't know what subsidies are on your side of the Atlantic... You're probably more experienced than we are in this field.


Best regards,
Alain Mengus


User currently offlineFlpuck6 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2123 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1564 times:

Hello Alain-

Yes yes, I know the Americans know very well what subsidies are! It's undisputedly a hot arguement between socialist/capitalistic govt's and the US.

I didn't mean to insinuate that France was at all the USSR of Western Europe...you should know that  Big grin

Keesje, no, I have never made a connection at CDG, but my Mom and brother have...they told it me it was close to hell. They parked their inbound from BOS plane all the way out in Orly (ok, exaggeration) and bussed them to the terminal where they then had to sprint to catch the CDG-TLS (Toulouse) flight. Perhaps the connection timing is something AF ops needs to look at...

But not straying away from the topic, all subsidies arguements put aside, you cannot argue that Air France is not doing well when the other majors are struggling to make a profit.

-Chris



Bonjour Chef!
User currently offlineJrlander From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1543 times:

From my understanding, CDG will be a better experience when the next phase of Terminal 2 opens up. Anybody have information on this?



User currently offlineAndreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 31
Reply 23, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1533 times:

...up until I read your posting, I really thought I 'm looking at a completely different movie, as we say in Germany.
Just a few things to add:
1. AF used restructuring and fleet modernisation subisidies they received in the 90ies to finance a price war against BA on the Europe-Asian routes and against the US carriers on the Northern Atlantic routes, thereby openly ignoring the verdict of the EU commission.

2. Sorry to all you AF defenders, but it is in fact totally useless to compare the profit and loss account of AF to other carriers such as BA and LH. It just is, why denying it? Lovely to see that AF seems to be on a good way, my congratulations, but don't compare them to BA or LH, that just sounds like a little snotnose who beats up other kids, knowing that big brother is there to help him out of any bad situation...not really nice!

Regards
Andreas

PS: Will the French soccer team use AF to fly home if they lose again??? Big grin



I know it's only VfB but I like it!
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1503 times:

Agreeing on your verdict on AF,

I must say I like to see the french soccer team,

especially the Algerian guy, fabulous overview & technic ....

If it was an AF team, the other team probably would be denied access to the 23m area by a FIFA official


25 Post contains links AFa340-300E : Andreas, Seien Sie nicht zu eitel... Eben wenn die Wahrheit ist, dass die kleinen Franzosen etwas den grossen Deutschen beibringen können. It's forbi
26 Sk945 : I think AF is a great airline. I also think that some of you here ain't fair. I guess that almost every airline in the world in some way got some help
27 Emile : higher landing fees for state owned airliners,air france,alitalia and i don,t want to speak about SWISS AIRLINES THEY MAKE ME SICK.see klm doing so we
28 Sk945 : Emile, I didnt know that KLM was dead!
29 Fa4af : hi to you all ! i work for AF and I am really impressed by the reactions to this thread. Why is it that when AF does poorly, it is, according to some
30 Post contains links and images Keesje : It's like not paying your bills, cheating your neighbours, accuse everybody in the street for years and then being reborn one day and ask "what's the
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
AF, First European Airline To Operate A380 posted Mon Jan 10 2005 18:47:49 by Summa767
AF : Soon The First European Airline? posted Mon Apr 8 2002 22:38:16 by Too low
Jat To Get First Two ERJ170’s In April posted Mon Jan 9 2006 04:49:38 by DekX
TTG Awards AF Best European Airline To Asia posted Fri Oct 22 2004 12:41:18 by AF Cabin Crew
First European Airline To Bangalore posted Mon Mar 19 2001 17:10:35 by Johnnybgoode
NAS Awarded First Private Airline Licence In KSA posted Wed Dec 6 2006 13:35:17 by HiJazzey
Consolidation In The European Airline Market posted Mon Dec 4 2006 16:12:24 by LHStarAlliance
New First Class Seats In Af posted Mon Nov 1 2004 13:37:33 by Hydargos
Best Airline In First From JFK-LHR posted Sun Jun 29 2003 08:03:33 by Boeing 747-311
AF Concorde Back In April, 2001 posted Mon Sep 4 2000 12:56:11 by Euroflyer