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No Frills Pilots Ignoring ATC In The UK  
User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6304 times:

This was on aol this morning, basically an air traffic controller is saying that pilots from one of the no frills carriers are ignoring routing and levels in a bid to land on time.
I have enclosed a few excerps and the link

http://www.ananova.com/business/story/sm_609765.html

BUDGET AIRLINES 'RISKING PASSENGERS' LIVES'

PILOTS from at least one budget airline are being accused of putting passengers' lives at risk.

They are accused of ignoring orders from air traffic controllers as they bid to meet tight deadlines.

They are also accused of ignoring longer flight paths set up to cut down on noise disturbance and instead taking shorter routes over nearby houses.

The air traffic controller says pilots are cutting corners because they are working under "extreme pressure on the flight deck to achieve programmed sector times", the newspaper said.

The controller complains of "overly aggressive responses" from pilots, who frequently challenge the order in which jets take off and land.

He commented: "It is occurring with increasing frequency and, in my judgment, is due in part to the aggressively commercial ethos that exists within some airline companies."


50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7363 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6223 times:
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In this follow-up story three of the no frills airlines have made these comments:

'A spokeswoman for Ryanair said: "We operate to the highest standards of international safety and like all airlines we are regulated by the aviation authorities."

A spokeswoman for KLM's budget airline Buzz said: "All our pilots are KLM-trained. I am very surprised by this allegation."

Officials at Go says safety is "non-negotiable". The airline would launch an immediate investigation if any pilot disregarded air control instructions.'

Where is the statement from easyJet?

David


User currently offlineN2805WWest From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6239 times:

Just wait till the ATC is privatised then you will have Chaos, ATC Making pilots fly longer routes so ATC can increase their capacity and the pilots ignoring them. And who says the skies are getting safer

User currently offlineKirstey From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6217 times:

Nice one Kaddy!

Of course ATC is already privatised and now owned by the airlines!! and unlike us pilots ATCOs aren't concerned about company profits etc etc. Their jobs are more secure therefore they are concerned with doing the jobs safely and to the best of their ability!



User currently offlineCapt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6223 times:

I'd be careful with what you read; from what I understand of a friend who works at West Drayton, this accusation should be addressed to ALL airlines, not just the no-frills operators.

Just as an example, one airline whose pilots consistently question ATC instructions is a full-service carrier based in mainland Europe.

Every airline has its morons; as far as I have seen, from sitting on the jumpseat for landing/takeoff with previous flights with Ryanair, the communications have been pleasant and even jolly!

Regards


User currently offlineCapt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6210 times:

Sorry, should have added that the guy above has since retired....

Cheers


User currently offlineCapt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6182 times:

Plenty of video reports on this story on bbc.co.uk/news

As I understand from David Learmount, the problem is not so much that budget airlines have actually contravened any safety regulations, but that their pilots are alleged to have become very aggressive and snappy with controllers, questioning the need for speed restrictions, altitudes, headings, go arounds etc.

Incidentally, the fact that Easyjet have not yet offocially replied to these raised concerns does not in my opinion prove anything either way.

Let's hope that if true, this problem gets resolved, whatever the airline or airlines involved.

Cheers!



User currently offlineKirstey From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6178 times:

Easyjet having nothing to answer for. The Times suggests that a certain irish no-frill airline is responsible. The accusations is not just that they are getting aggressive, but that they are ignoring speed restrictions during their approach, which has lead to a few go-arounds as they lose seperation with the plane in front.

Aviation related journalism stinks at the best of times, but as I've said before, walkarounds, slow taxying etc etc are not part of the Ryan Training policy!


User currently offlineCapt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6149 times:

Kirstey,

With all respect, I think it unfair that you single out Ryanair for criticism of its training policies. Do you fly for Ryanair? How can you make such a statement knowingly? (especially with the abbreviation 'etc.' and all that it implies...)

As for taxying...I've flown with Ryanair more than 12 times now, as well as having watched their a/c movements on the ground (along with those of other airlines) at Stansted. They don't taxy any faster/slower than other airlines; and that's having flown with many other airlines too.

As for walkarounds, as I don't have the required knowledge/experience, I can't comment other than to say that that is indeed true that at least on one of my jumpseat flights with them, no walkaround inspection was made. However, I don't know what the possibilities/legalities are in this area, so I'm not necessarily going to draw a bad conclusion from this.

Regards


User currently offlineKirstey From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6148 times:

I don't fly for ryanair, I fly for BA. And I was not intending to single them out. I only named them because I know from my 2nd hand experience from ATCOs (married to one) that they draw their share of critisim. There is no legal requirement to perform an A check (full walkaround) apart from the 1st first flight of the day. however it is standard practice to at least kick the tyres before each flight. Ultimatly the p1 has a legal responsibility for his PAX and not the airline (well of course the airline is financially responsible).

Safety reports have been filed by ATCOs relating to their speed on the ground and much more importantly their speed in the air.

Anyway, wasn't just intended as a Ryanair bash so apologies.

Suggest you freecall PPRUNE for a more informed debate on Ryanair than I can give you.


User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13738 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6133 times:

Well I think it's quite shocking... but it seems untrue because of my feelings  Laugh out loud

EasyJet plc, has actually responded live on BBC NEWS 24 and the head of Corporate Affairs was actually sounding quite angry that the presenter kept implying that Easyjet is one of the airlines involved. He said blah blah safety blah. When asked if EZY would launch an enquiry, the man said that EZY is not involved in this and if so, then the pilots would be disciplined.

I personally think the story has been blown all out of proportion because of some speculation. Firstly, the airline is anonymous. Seconldy, there is no evidence of this really. Thirdly, it could have been anyone putting this report in. But we'll see.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3700 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6138 times:
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This story is about 2 month old and this is the source (http://www.chirp.co.uk/):-

Inappropriate Interpersonal Relations

A human factors problem that I believe to be on the increase is a growing tendency observed primarily, with some of the ‘low cost’ airline operators, of flight crew reacting inappropriately to air traffic control clearances and instructions received.

These inappropriate reactions, perhaps more accurately described as inappropriate ‘behaviour’, usually take the form of overly-aggressive responses to what are perceived by flight crew as either unnecessary or unhelpful air traffic control instructions or clearances that are believed to inhibit the planned operation of the flight. Only on rare occasions do such reactions constitute a legitimate questioning of a clearance or instruction on the grounds of flight safety, something of which I would not only understand, but would entirely support on the basis of it being a valuable flight deck/ATC CRM/TRM interactive process.

Examples which have occurred recently include:

• Questioning on the R/T of the chosen traffic approach sequencing combined with an accusation that the aircraft in question was positioned ‘number two’ in the sequence because the crew were not UK nationals

• Failure to comply with assigned intermediate and final approach speeds prior to reaching 4 nm from touchdown (no adverse weather or unusual operating circumstances), resulting in a go-around by the aircraft involved

• Accusation that the Localiser Sensitive Area (LSA) was infringed during a Cat. 3 landing because of the observed position of the previous landed aircraft being allegedly within the LSA and a refusal by the flight crew involved to accept the explanation given, which confirmed that the LSA was not infringed and that the previous landed aircraft was holding in an approved position

• Frequent querying of the push-and-start order chosen by Ground Movement Control (usually, on the basis of Central Flow Management Unit-allocated Take Off times) and an aggressive attitude on the R/T when given the explanation by GMC, even when the tactical situation involves only aircraft of the same company.

• Accusation that the IRVR values passed by ATC during periods of shallow fog, are “dangerously inaccurate” (notwithstanding that the IRVR system is fully calibrated and flight checked, thereby meeting all CAA operating criteria)

• Failing to fully comply with arrival noise abatement procedures combined with a dismissive response when the error is (as required) drawn to the attention of the flight crews involved.

I would not wish to give the impression that anarchy has broken out or that this problem is occurring more often than not; at the present time, it remains the exception rather than the rule. However, it is occurring with increasing frequency and in my judgment, is due in part to the aggressively commercial ethos that exists within some airline companies and which probably translates into extreme pressure on the flight deck to achieve programmed sector flight times. In consequence, flight crew frustration with anything that interferes with their ability to maintain the schedule, clearly, will occur; this frustration will manifest itself in different ways depending on the flight crew involved.



And before this get's deleted for copyright violation :-

Reproduction of FEEDBACK

CHIRP® reports are published as a contribution to safety in the aviation industry. Extracts may be published without specific permission, providing that the source is duly acknowledged.



User currently offlineSkymonster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6122 times:

Having in the past worked in the airline industry for eleven years and during that period made hundreds and hundreds of flights, many on the flight deck, I am well aware that both flight crews and airline ops departments sometimes push the boundaries in order to achieve what the travelling public want - a reliable, on time air service.

The types of things that I have seen done, both on the ground and in the air, are too numerous to mention. The sort of things mentioned in todays reports may be more prevalent now, but are certainly nothing new.

However, there is a world of difference between "using the system" to your own advantage, and not operating safely. In my experience, using the system stops well before safety is compromised.

Andy


User currently offlineErasmus From Italy, joined Jun 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6123 times:

Kirstey,

Could you please post or email me the links to this particular discussion about Ryanair on PPRUNE.
Thanks.

Regards,
Erasmus


User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13738 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6109 times:

Another thing, why is it just the UK that is implicated? Do the pilots not do this in €urope if it is true?

Buzz: No press release

Easyjet: EZY pilots adhere to the very highest standards of training and monitoring - reflected in unblemished safety record to date. Passengers to be reassured. Low cost airlines make money by turnover times on the ground and Easyjets spend the same amount of time in the air as BAW planes. For the week ending 16 June, 81% of flights were on time and 98% of flights arrived within 1 hour.

Ryanair: No press release.

Go: No press release.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2072 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6103 times:

Isn't this old news? Even if the allegations were true, the noise made on PPRUNE a few months ago should have put an end to any risky practice.
Emphasis on `should'.



` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineKirstey From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6096 times:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56852 is the most recent (today). I suggest a search on Ryanair will give you a better picture of the last year (including Ryanair flight deck crew responses)

enjoy


User currently offlineCapt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6034 times:

No worries Kirstey, I just don't like seeing 1 airline being bullied all the time-especially if the criticism is based on rumours and not facts!

I hope to join you one day on the FD, who knows which airline though!

Regarding pprune, take care everyone, because not everything written on those boards is necessarily true; take into account sour grapes, agendas, whinge-factor, jealousy and simply outright provocation!

I don't claim to be an expert in aviation, I'm only 20, but you don't have to be a genius to work out what is probably true and what most likely isn't.

In any case, pprune proves to be a good laugh on most occasions!  Big thumbs up

Regards


User currently offlineAirblue From San Marino, joined May 2001, 1825 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5976 times:

It's really hard to believe FR (or any other low-cost carriers) risks its passengers lives to save few minutes ingnoring ATC.
They save and try to cut everything, but not the safety of their passengers.
The Valujet story was a school for every LCC managers.
Especially for FR that it's still flying some 20 years old B737/200.
The impact on the public opinion for a disaster could destroy also a so profitable and established airline like Ryanair:


User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3700 posts, RR: 34
Reply 19, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5926 times:
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Singapore_Air,

If you read my earlier post you will note no particular nationality is implicated, it is just the press guilding the lily for a more sensationalist story


User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5882 times:

I am posting this to two threads as it is relevent.

While I have to admit before I post this that I am favouring BA over the no frills, I find (for right or for wrong) that they offer a better service, and in recent times offer better fares in many cases than the no frills.

I think it is interesting that today the slur against the no frills safety comes out on the same day that BA announced fares that are going to severely challenge the no frills....coincedence ? ...you decide

Jeremy


User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5871 times:
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Funny that Easyjet is the one being singled out, anyone hear EZY chairman Stelio's comments regarding Ryanair's safety?

Arsenal@LHR



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2865 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5863 times:

Singapore_Air's QUOTE: I personally think the story has been blown all out of proportion because of some speculation. Firstly, the airline is anonymous. Seconldy, there is no evidence of this really. Thirdly, it could have been anyone putting this report in. But we'll see.

Hmm, well, being an ATPL and married to an ATCO, I can say quite categorically that comment is rubbish and it shows clearly that comments made by people not in the trade are as dangerous as some of the comments one finds in the gutter press.

1. The story has not been blown out of proportion at all.
2. There is plenty of evidence. Chirp's evidence and contributors' identities are kept completely confidential for obvious reasons. If there was no fact behind the report, Chirp would not have published it. That is FACT.
3. Commercial pilots, ATCOs and aircraft Engineers ONLY are allowed to submit Chirp reports. It is not open to "anyone putting a report in."

People who lack professional knowledge should not use forums like this to promulgate their own ill-informed opinions whilst making them sound like fact. Such comment is dangerous and does the industry no favours whatsoever.  Pissed

Shamu




So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13738 posts, RR: 19
Reply 23, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5812 times:

Well I think it has been blown out of all proportion. It even made headline news at one point. I think before some people take it for actual fact, it surprises me that nothing has been noted in mainland €urope.

Your point number 3 'Shamu' is misintepreted as my implication was that any ATC person or pilot etc.. could have put that in, it doesn't mean that it's totally true. My mistake though.

Your last comment is quite condescending and I advise caution on such language in the future.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13738 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5792 times:

Go has now issued a press release like merger-partner EasyJet.

----
Go pilots fly to the highest standards - 18 June

With regard to reports in the media, Go would like to reassure all passengers that our pilots fly to the highest standards.

Safety is non-negotiable. Flights are monitored by an onboard flight data recording system to check that aircraft are flown within the strict parameters laid down by Go and Boeing.

If there was ever a suggestion that flight crew had disregarded air traffic control instructions we would launch an investigation immediately.
----

Go website



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
25 BlueShamu330s : Condescending ?? I'm loathe to respond to the post of a juvenile who's comments really are occassionally condescending and startlingly patronising aga
26 Skymonster : The story has not been blown out of proportion at all Indeed blueshamu330s... much as I said earlier. However, having worked for a certain airline for
27 BlueShamu330s : Andy Couldn't agree more with you ! However, I'm not sure it's fair to say that the full cost carriers per se are pointing the finger; infact, I think
28 Kirstey : Shamu , The report wasn't about pilots being pushy. Nothing wrong with that at all, we all ask for what we can! However, this report is concerned with
29 BlueShamu330s : Hi Kirstey Since MAN introduced runway 2 and its new SIDS, left base for IFR inbounds is now a non-standard and rare procedure. MAN outbounds to the s
30 Emile : ITS THE BABY bmi????????????
31 Post contains images Donder10 : LOL Shamu, EZY are usually good when on 127.95, going into Luton so it must be a Northern thing
32 Post contains images BlueShamu330s : Donder, who said it was EZY ???? ROFL Damn, I must be more careful in future I can empathise with them a little bit though, as going "over the top" f
33 David_itl : "But that's another thread" (With apologies to Airplane) David
34 Post contains images Donder10 : I didnt even see the ''I'm not going to name and shame, but there is one operator operating into a north west airport who's crew repeatedly report vis
35 Prebennorholm : When rules are not obeyed to, then there is a discipline system to deal with it. Not in general terms, not even mentioning a specific flight, much les
36 Post contains links David_itl : Don't ask me why the lines below appeared in this story which is about the ATC strikes. What's the standard working pattern for a pilot - two days on/
37 Post contains links Rick767 : Prebennorholm, "Why does ATC controllers go to the press instead of using the discipline system?" The air traffic controller who made this report did
38 BlueShamu330s : Prebennorholm I think you misunderstand the purpose of Chirp. It is not 'The Press.' It is a confidential (ie identity is protected) way for Commercia
39 Post contains images BlueShamu330s : LOL, we're typing at the same time !!!! Do you have a slot ??
40 Post contains images Rick767 : Do we ever?! Is it ORD or IAH 2moro?
41 Skymonster : BlueShamu330s, Sorry to return to this a bit late, but yes you're right of course in that the full fares are not those really pointing the finger. All
42 Prebennorholm : Thanks a lot to Rick767 and BlueShamu330s for telling us foreign laymen about the CHRIP and how it works. The report has of course also been copied he
43 Skymonster : In my view the only thing the publicity of this report has done is discourage me from filing such reports myself in the future with the fear of mass m
44 Rick767 : Prebennorholm, I agree with you. I truly hope that the CHIRP reports will not now simply become a source of "news" for the tabloid press. It is a real
45 Rick767 : "but rather it is the fault of those running the system that they do not adequately manage the media's interpretation of its results" Do you really th
46 Prebennorholm : Skymonster, of course you are right. In principle. But we only have the press which we have. And what they need is sensation, disasters and blood. Day
47 Skymonster : Rick767, Well yes, you're right. The media's adverse interpretation of such matters is not confined to aviation, but nor should the media's interpreta
48 Rick767 : Skymonster, Quite agree. Perhaps I over-reacted a little before. I would still have no hesitation to file a report to CHIRP in the event of a serious
49 Post contains images Skymonster : Well then Rick767, in that case we agree to agree! Now I'm going to bed!!! Important meeting with Iberia later today! Andy
50 Kirstey : Shamu, Fair enough, I've not been there for a long old time. I seem to spend most of my life going LHR to EDI these days. Not been to LPL since the 2n
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