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Icelandair In Canada  
User currently offlineLundqvist From Sweden, joined May 2001, 42 posts, RR: 0
Posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1889 times:

Hi all,

With the withdrawal of Icelandair in Halifax last fall, are there any news of it returning? I read that this route was doing very well before it was gone. With the bookings going down insignificantly when comparing to other destinations such as Baltimore where a sizable subsidy was given to the airline to keep it running in the airport.
And is Winnipeg going to get a flight from Keflavik? Well now with flights to Minneapolis weekly does the chance seems dimmer? Icelandair could have gone to Winnipeg as oppose to Minneapolis but it's probably because of Canada's protectionist policy.
I am hoping for Icelandic to return to Canada now that there are no direct connection between Canada and the Nordic countries with the exception of the seasonal Helsinki from Toronto.

M. Lundqvist

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJabpilot From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1836 times:

Minneapolis service weekly? When did this start? I thought MSP-KEF was a daily nonstop.

Jeff

User currently offlineETA Unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1819 times:

Halifax was operated with B737-400 equipment which has been phased out. Halifax probably doesn't have sufficient demand to warrant a 757-200 service.

User currently offlineJetset From Canada, joined Jun 2001, 353 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1814 times:

attn eta.....

halifax was served by 757.on very rare and i mean rare occasions it was 737.

that i can confirm.....i work at halifax intl airport



rgds
jetset


User currently offlineETA Unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1806 times:

Jetset- thanks for the info... didn't know Halifax was upgraded to a 757!

User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1803 times:

A few months before being discontinued it was upgraded to a B757. The demand was there, but Sept. 11th ruined that.


Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16371 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1770 times:

YWG makes sense for several reasons:
1. The largest Icelandic community outside of Iceland is in YWG.
2. YWG is the largest Canadian city without transatlantic service.
3. Many Scandinavian-Canadians are in Western/Central Canada & would benefit from good connections thru KEF to Scandinavia.

Perhaps Icelandair considers YWG too close to MSP to warrant service.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineRdps From Canada, joined Jun 2001, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1756 times:

Jetset,

Could you please contact me at radar_control@hotmail.com

Thanks.


User currently offlineAFC_ajax00 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1753 times:

What happened to the 737-400's? any replacements planned or not?


Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward; for there you long to return
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16371 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1732 times:

Icelandair is standardizing on the 757. Which is surprizing given that there are probably many routes that could support a 737-size aircraft profitably which would also develop into a 757-market at a later date.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinePolaris From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 1150 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1671 times:

Lundqvist says it's probably because of Canada's protectionist policy.

I don't understand the basis for this statement. Canada has among the most open bilateral agreements...with those countries that offer Canada the same openness in return.

With regards to the agreement with Iceland, Icelandair has rights into Halifax (maximum five times weekly), Montreal, and either Winnipeg or St John's. If Icelandair doesn't serve these cities, then it is their choice. It has nothing to do with Canadian policy.





User currently offlineLundqvist From Sweden, joined May 2001, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1659 times:

Hi Polaris,

I think for many years, Transport Canada has been very protective of her national carrier Air Canada.
Icelandair attempted to have a bilateral agreement with Canada in the early 90s but was rejected by the Transport Canada saying that the agreement won't be necessary. But finally, with the enthusiastic support of the city of Icelandair were finally able to fly to Halifax twice weekly. After a few season Icelandair then asked Transport Canada for the rights of daily flights to Halifax and it is not until five years later that Icelandair gets the answer. They finally gets the right to fly 5 times weekly to Halifax in 2001.
Icelandair has also been asking for rights to fly to Toronto on every other occation, but was instead given the rights to Montreal (Mirabel only) at first, then Winnipeg and St.John's in 2001.
With no Canadian carrier interested in flying to Iceland from Canada, I think Transport Canada could have go easy on Icelandair's demands, perhaps granting the airline the rights to fly to Toronto or to Halifax on a daily basis years ago. Icelandair's Halifax route has helped the city, perhaps NS quite a bit as more tourists are coming to the region from the Nordic countries and most of Iceland's businesses in Canada are located in the area.
Icelandair is probably not the only airline who has been affected by Transport Canada's policies. But it is sad to see an airline like Icelandair leave.

M.Lundqvist


User currently offlinePolaris From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 1150 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1645 times:

Actually, the Government of Canada made it easier for Icelandair to gain access to Canada.

You're right - Canada did say that an agreement was not necessary. In fact, there is still no official bilateral agreement between Iceland and Canada. Services are operated based on a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) dated 1995 September 26 - and updated a few times since then. With this MOU, they were able to get services established sooner while, if necessary, negotiations could continue towards an official bilateral agreement.

You are also correct in saying that rights into Toronto are not being granted. This is not to protect Canadian air carriers. It is because Toronto is one of the main bargaining points available to Canada. Other countries have to be able to give to Canada something of equal value in order to gain access to Toronto.

With the MOU, Iceland has a major advantage. In addition to serving three Canadian cities (Halifax, Montreal and either Winnipeg or St. John's), Iceland has the right to carry passengers between these cities and Europe and vice-versa through Iceland - often called Sixth Freedom Rights - as long as there is a connection.

In return, Canada has asked that Icelandic authorities approve charter flights between the two countries and that Icelandair provide ground handling for Canada 3000 (a carrier that is no longer in service). The benefits right now appear to be in favour of Iceland.

Why Icelandair does not exercise its rights into Canada is a good question. I would be interested in finding out why, too. However, I don't think it is because of the MOU.

A pleasure.


User currently offlineAFa340-300E From France, joined May 1999, 2084 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1627 times:

Hello,

Would anyone have traffic figures please?

The business case of Icelandair is very interesting, but I really wonder how they manage to make money on these niche markets since they usually attract passengers with lower fares and must have higher units costs than those of the big transatlantic majors they are in competition with. There's no comparison between the economics of an A330-300, a 747-400 and those of a 757-300. Especially if you operate 15-20 airplanes of the type.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sam Chui



Best regards,
Alain Mengus
ATB - Canada 3000 -- Airbus A340-300




User currently offlinePolaris From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 1150 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1621 times:

The latest figures I have are for 1998.

There were 22 000 one-way passenger trips between Canada and Iceland. That would be 44 000 return.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16371 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1600 times:

Why would the Can govt deny Icelandair the right to fly to YYZ but offer YUL?

Why should the YYZ market not benefit from the economic stimulus that Icelandair flights would provide?

More discrimination against YYZ by our own Fed Govt.

Disgraceful.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineFallingeese From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2097 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1593 times:

Yyz717 - discriminating against YYZ....lol....try living in the west my friend.


Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
User currently offlineYwg777 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 1264 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1571 times:

I hope Icelandair comes back. I am sure Winnipeg will probably on their priorty list. Manitoba does have the largest icelandic population in all of Westren Canada and it kinda of makes a bit of sense to fly here a 757.

They do have the rights to Winnipeg that I do know.

Shawn


User currently offlineLundqvist From Sweden, joined May 2001, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1564 times:

Hi Yyz717,

If I remembered correctly Icelandair is only allowed to fly into Mirabel but not Dorval. Given that Mirabel has many disadvantage to its location and etc it is not a very attractive option for the airline. I would think that with Icelandair operating in YYZ would benefit the travellers in Toronto but the government of Canada thinks that it might not be such a good idea for Air Canada.

Hi Polaris,

Thanks for the explaining. But I think if a bilateral agreement (or even an open sky agreement like Iceland-US did) was signed in the 90s, Icelandair might have established a transatlantic market in Canada. Although there's MOU, and like you said that it might lead to a bilateral agreement, there have been few meetings between the two and in most cases Icelandair was offered something else other than what they requested. Transport Canada even cancelled one of its meeting with Icelandair few years ago. During that time, Icelandair were expanding in the US much faster and easier with the open sky agreement. Today there are no direct connections between Canada and Iceland while JFK, Boston, Minneapolis, Orlando and Washington are served by Icelandair.

In return of this MOU Icelandair seems to benefit more, but I don't think any Canadian carriers is interested in the market in Iceland at all (except for C3000's seasonal to Iceland which has been gone for quite a while now).

The request for Toronto was rejected because like what you said, Transport Canada thinks that Icelandair, with the sixth-freedom right connection advantage, would cut into Air Canada's core market (Toronto). This case makes Transport Canada looks very protective of its airline and its market, if it's not already is. Furthermore Transport Canada made the negotiations uneasy for the airline. An Icelandic official have recall his experience dealing with the department by saying that he's "far more willing to deal with Moscow than Canada."

With the discontinued of the Halifax-Keflavik route did really hindered the city and the region in many ways. Before the route was axed, Icelandair and the NS tourism board worked together in promoting the region's (Atlantic Canada)
tourism in Scandinavia and Iceland (an example would be the "Viking Millennium" held in Newfoundland last year). And I believed that the number of tourist from Scandinavia and Iceland has increased quite dramatically over the last five years. In 1999, Icelandair carried about 25% of the tourists from Europe to Nova Scotia. The region was also in the process of establishing a market in Iceland and (vice versa) during the years.

There are probably many reasons why Icelandair axed the route (September 11th...), but I think the MOU is one of them. If Icelandair had established a good network in Canada like they did in the US, this situation might have been different.

M.Lundqvist


User currently offlineLundqvist From Sweden, joined May 2001, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1554 times:

Hello,

There's an interesting relationship between Manitoba and Iceland. New Iceland was located in the shore of Lake Winnipeg. Unlike most other Europeans, Canada was the main destination of Icelandic immigrants, given the fact that Iceland was one of the few European countries (if not the only country) that have sent more immigrants to Canada than to the United States. At one time Icelanders accounts for five percent of the province's population! I do very much hope that Icelandair will resume its service to Canada!

M.Lundqvist


User currently offlineAC330 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 338 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1550 times:

I was planning on taking a trip to Iceland on Icelandair from Halifax before the route was cancelled. Does anybody know if they will ever come to YHZ again? I would love to see them back. I know someone who worked at YHZ and said that their flights were always full!

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16371 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1538 times:

Yyz717 - discriminating against YYZ....lol....try living in the west my friend.

I actually agree with you Fallingeese. The West has the poorest deal in Confederation. But here in YYZ we still see plenty of pro-Quebec (ie, anti-YYZ) activity by our own fed govt.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 22, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1536 times:

I am almost 100% positive that the decesion to axe Halifax was made before 9.11.


a.
User currently offlineAC330 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 338 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1529 times:

MAH4546 I think you are right. I remember hearing in AUgust of last year that Icelandair was cancelling service to Halifax....I was still very surprised. I would love to see them back at YHZ.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16371 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (12 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1523 times:

Perhaps the YHZ cancellation was part of a long range strategy to drop routes that were developing to 752 pax levels, since they are standardizing on the 757.

Neil



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
25 AC330 : But YHZ was served by Icelandair's 757-200
26 Yyz717 : I thought YHZ was served by the 734 primarily? Perhaps with the 734 being phased out, it was felt that YHZ did not pass muster as a regular/confirmed
27 Polaris : Hi Lundqvist: A couple of points I would like to add. First, I didn't say this: The request for Toronto was rejected because like what you said, Trans
28 Yow : I remember reading an online article stating that Icelandair dropped daily service because TC was denying them the right to fly the route daily. The a
29 Post contains links Yow : They story is really interesting. It takes awhile to read, but it should provide a better understanding to the whole situation. Here's the link: http:
30 Lundqvist : Hello, What I meant by you said is that Icelandair has the sixth freedom right. I am sorry not making it clear. But it is hard to find something of eq
31 Ual777contrail : i am planning a trip to KEF and wonder what the U.S. cites that FI serves? i know one is MSP,BOS and? does anybody know of any others? any good web si
32 Yyz717 : FI also serves BWI, JFK and MCO.
33 Lundqvist : There're lots of great places to visit in Iceland! Here's their tourism board http://www.icetourist.is/frontpage.asp?cat_id=1 (sorry I don't know how
34 Ywg777 : I think Icelandair should give Halifax another chance. If not halifax then Montreal and Winnipeg for sure. if they came into the Winnpeg Market they w
35 Fallingeese : Most people try to find the fastest, shortest route, not the one with a break in the middle. Icelandair doesn't have great connections to points beyon
36 Polaris : I've been away for a while but did want to follow-up on this thread because bilateral agreements interest me. I wanted to pick up on a couple more of
37 FLYYUL : Neil, The Federal government is a PRO-Toronto only government which has 70% of its voting populus in the Southern Ontario belt. Now maybe you can get
38 Rai : Mark: While I agree with much of what you've said, I don't think this has anything to do with the topic at hand and I think it belongs in the non-av f
39 FLYYUL : I agree Raj, I just hate this guy's attitude.... but ill defend the integrity of Montrealers any day.. Mark
40 ETA Unknown : I also seem to remember back in the Halifax 737-400 days, that aircraft operated a connecting flight to Glasgow. So... of the total number of pax to/f
41 Ywg777 : I havn't herd of any new news yet on this issue. Chances are likely that Ice Air will be back in Canada soon since Air travel is really picking up her
42 C-GRYK : Shawn, What makes you think FI will be back in Canada so soon? Just because air travel in general is picking up, doesn't mean a Canada-Iceland route w
43 Voodoo : Methinks a lot of potential VFR (visiting friends/relatives) traffic (Winnipeg), and shopping (St. John's) traffic is already taken by Air Atlanta sea
44 Yyz717 : YYZ loses when Icelandair is denied landing rights at YYZ. The economic benefits within the YYZ economy are lost. More discrimination against YYZ by t
45 Post contains images Polaris : Yyz717 Merde disturber, eh? Let's sit back and watch.
46 Post contains images Yyz717 : lol Polaris. Not intentionally, at least all the time. There is a certain little hot-head in YUL who I find mildly amusing at times. Seriously, I am a
47 FLYYUL : Neil, Your making everybody upset because you know that the government in canada especially will never stop interferring in the economy, especially in
48 Yyz717 : Stop with the personal insults FLYYUL and I'll address your questions.
49 FLYYUL : Youve pretty much insulted every french speaking Canadian, Montrealer, and Quebecker, and made a fool of yourself and others.... And youve had plenty
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