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SQ Aussie Flt #& Other Qns  
User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4749 posts, RR: 26
Posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 1547 times:

For those of u old enough to remember, SQ flts to Australia had an "A" in it. Eg. MEL-SIN was SQ 21A. Any reason why? And why did it stop?

And SQ also went through the DC10, 727 and 757 in just one batch and never ordered them again. If it was fleet rationalisation, why order them in the first place? They were excellent aircraft! Was it bad decision making on SQ's part?

p/s: interesting note to see Changi Airport's aerobridges were single piered in the early 80s.


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48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSingapore 777 From Australia, joined May 1999, 1014 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 1537 times:

The successor to the 727 was the 757. SQ was considering at that time between the Airbus A310 and the Boeing 757. I think the A310 won in the end because of complaints from passengers that the 757 was a narrowbody and the A310 was a widebody and that a widebody was more comfortable.

The successor to the DC10 was the MD11 but SQ cancelled their order when there were problems to do with the range of the MD11 (I think MD fell short of the promised range in their initial model of the MD11). SQ went for the A340 instead and right now those are being phased out for the B777-200ER. Sounds like indecisiveness eh? But I guess they can afford it!


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6767 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 1503 times:

SQ's policy in the past seems to be...

Get the plane and another plane similar, compare the 2 and dump the one you don't like before it's value goes down! (757 vs A310 and 777 vs A343)

Am not sure what happened with the DC10, my guess is that it was either an inheritance of orders from MSA days (it's a guess OK? Can't remember everything in history) or they used it to fly to markets where the 747 was too big. Mind you, DC10s claimed to have a longer range than 742s in those days.

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineEx_SQer From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 1435 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1494 times:

Ok this is a long post!

The DC10s were bought in the 70s for "long and thin" flights and they operated on a vareity of routes to MidEast/European (eg SIN-CMB-DXB-ZRH-CPH), one route to North America (SIN-HKG-HNL-SFO) and some regional routes (eg, SIN-PER, SIN-OSA). They were replaced when SQ realized it could actually fill its 742s on these routes. They left the fleet sometime in the early 80s.

After a few years of flying ONLY 747 series aircraft on longhauls, SQ realized in the late 80s/early 90s that it needed smaller aircraft for long-thin routes in order to provide more point-to-point services, as opposed to 747 services with multiple stops. They therefore ordered the MD11 in 1991 or 92, then changed their minds and went with the 343 when it became clear that the MD11's range/payload performance wasn't up to scratch, and then settled on the 772 when they saw that the 343, too, had performance issues.

The B727s were flown on regional routes - there were six, I think. They replaced the 737s, and the A300s/A310s/B757s were bought to replace them. The entire B727 fleet was sold to a Middle East royal family.

The A300s were used for regional routes for a time, together with B727s, but SQ found them a little too large. Hence.....

SQ bought 6x A310s and 4x B757s at the same time to test them out for regional routes. This was in the mid- or late-80s I think. They quickly dropped the B757s because of unfavorable passenger comments about it being a narrowbody. The entire 757 fleet was sold to ILFC. Cargo and baggage loading was also more efficient on the A310 because it was a widebody and one could use ULDs on them - great for widebody-to-widebody hub operations at SIN.

It was also partly for this reason that SQ did not choose the B767 - 767 ULDs fit only on B767s and not on any other plane. They could not do B767 to 747 plane-to-plane ULD transfers, whereas they could do A310 to B747 ULD transfers.

Anyway, so this is the history behind SQ's current fleet mix.

As for the question about the flight numbers, well, that pre-dates me by many years, but I will hazard a guess. We all know SQ is a major Kangaroo route operator. Notice now that the night LHR-SIN flight is SQ321 and it connects onto SQ221 SIN-SYD? Well in the past when SQ operated one LHR-SIN flight the number was SQ21, and I think the SQ21A or whatever it was called was a tactic to make passengers think they were on a continuing flight.

Ok sorry for the long post but I hope you guys find this info useful! Great dinner conversation, innit?


User currently offlineSQ772 From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 1792 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 1460 times:

I am not too sure how well versed some a.net members are of the airline industry (not just the tech, fleet aspects) But some of the comments made in other posts sure sounds fuzzy to me. Anway, ex-SQer, that was a pretty concise explaination of SQ's fleet replacement strategy thus far (or lack thereof as some of you might say).

Now, let me try to recall something I read about the much sought after Kangaroo Route....

I think ex-SQer got it right that SQ21 and SQ21A were basically the same flight. The reason why they could not just use SQ21 all the way from LHR to SYD was because of problems with 5th freedom rights. SQ circumvented this technicality by making it seem as though there was a change of flight (thus adding an A behind). If I recall correctly (I may be wrong on this one), this was partly done because of protests by BA and QF who were flying the very lucrative Kangaroo route as well.

Actually, they were still operating SQ22/21 in the early 90s. So, I don't think it pre-dates ex-SQer by that many years...heheh

There have been many instances where SQ used initiative and a little creativity to go round prevailing international aviation rules. I vaguely remember something about the use of earphones over the Atlantic... SQ was one of the first airlines to offer free ear phones to passengers. However,this was against IATA regulations. SQ came up with something to circumvent this problem, I can't exactly recall what is it...Ex-SQer, can help me out on this one?




There's always a better way to fly...
User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4749 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 1433 times:

Knowing SQ, they probably went around the corner and charged the price of the headphones into the tickets purchased by the pax. See? Easy does it! Pacify the authorities and giving the pax an illusion that the headphones are free... kill 2 birds with one stone.

They really should not have installed the internet at my workplace! Sheesh... need to get back to work!

Cheers
Ryan



Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlineEx_SQer From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 1435 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 1429 times:

Geez, SQ772, so my identity is known to you. And I still don't have the faintest idea who you are (I do have one prime suspect though). Looks like I need to do some kay-pohing to find out.

Just to nitpick - re: the SQ21/21A issue... it was sixth freedom rights that they were trying to get around, not fifth freedoms.

I know there was something creative around the headset thing, but I can't remember what.



User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4749 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 1410 times:

Speaking of MD11s... actually Singapore Airlines was instrumental in the downfall of that tri-jet when they cancelled their orders in the mid-90s. Wondered why no one started bashing SQ on this? Or has this thread been posted before?


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User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4749 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 1401 times:

Anyway, the A310 was delivered in 1983 and was christened "3TEN"... whereas the B757-200s were delivered in mid-85 (and they received the new livery too in 1989). A space of 2 years to decide on an a/c to serve the same market... SQ sure did a lot of testing with the various a/c types to suit its needs! The A300B4s were delivered in 1981.

Geez... alot of money to burn?



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User currently offlineSQ772 From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 1792 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1365 times:

Ryanair, SQ caused the downfall of the tri-jets? Didn't you argue till you went hoarse that SQ shouldn't be responsible for Ansett's collapse? (ok, maybe not exactly related, but all I can say is that SQ was merely making a business decision) sigh...must go find out who that J class FSS was that caused you so much hatred. Must make her kneel in front of you so that you can spit on her!  Crying

Ex-SQer... ok ok, 6th freedom rights. I didn't have the opportunity to look through the book they give all of us on the first day we joined the company (or was this book for newbies thingy way before your time?)  Wink/being sarcastic

The headphones: Something the DM I shadowed told me when I was still a TSM...correct me if I am wrong, but it had something to do with the crew collecting back the headsets before the US bound aircraft departed from Europe and re-distributing them only after they were over international airspace...

Just kaypoh-ing.... were you a TSM under the King1, King2 era? Fyi, I wasn't, that was before my time.





There's always a better way to fly...
User currently offlineSQ772 From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 1792 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1353 times:

Knowing SQ, they probably went around the corner and charged the price of the headphones into the tickets purchased by the pax. See? Easy does it! Pacify the authorities and giving the pax an illusion that the headphones are free... kill 2 birds with one stone.

Yeah right Ryan, that probably explains why SQ's fare is always a few hundred bucks more than other carriers....expensive headphones they must be using....  Wink/being sarcastic




There's always a better way to fly...
User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4749 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1331 times:

SQ772...

no,it was actually written in several books about MD11s that SQ was a major contributing factor to the beginning of the tri-jet's end. One of the books was Tri-Jets by Robbie Shaw.

Spit on her? C'mon... live and let live! She was probably fired after that incident anyway! Hahahaha...



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User currently offlineSQ772 From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 1792 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1322 times:

But did SQ make a huge order for the MD11s like they did for the 777s? I mean, I can understand if SQ suddenly decides to call off the 77 planes they ordered, but I don't think SQ had any big plans for the MD11 in the first place. Well, at least not big enough to cause a dent at Macdonell Douglas/Boeing (which I think was already struggling by that time). There were still other carriers (eg. SR) whose long haul fleets were basically supported by the MD11.

Anyway, what did Robbie Shaw say in his book about SQ in relation to MD11?

Live and let live? ok...  Wink/being sarcastic



There's always a better way to fly...
User currently offlineGaruda From Indonesia, joined Nov 2000, 584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1307 times:

I'm not really sure how many MD11s did SQ ordered in the first place, but SQ was (or still is??) considered the benchmark by other airlines, in terms of their fleet choices...

Just imagine what will happen to the A380 program if SQ or EK decided to cancel their orders. I'm pretty sure that other airlines who ordered A380s will re-think their decision in buying the A380s.

JA


User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1860 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1298 times:

The original MD-11 MoU was for five firm and fifteen options. One of the reasons the MD-11 was favored initially was DL and SR---SQ's global partners at the time---had ordered the MD-11, too. When MDC was unable to meet SQ's requirements, SQ went to Airbus and ordered 7+13 A343s. Although the original order was not big, the reversal had a tremendous impact on the MD-11. Had SQ stayed with the MD-11, the MD-11 might have a chance to co-exist with the B777 and A330/340.

User currently offlineSQ772 From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 1792 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1296 times:

JA,

Well, if SQ's influence was so great that it led to other airlines cancelling their MD11 orders, then I must say that it is a compliment to SQ.

But I seriously doubt other airlines followed SQ blindly, without first ascertaining the MD11's suitability.



There's always a better way to fly...
User currently offlineEx_SQer From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 1435 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1287 times:

SQ772:
Good gawd King 1 and King 2. Brings a tear to the eye. I was right after that, I think. When did that system end?

No other airline cancelled MD11 orders directly in reaction to SQ's cancellation, but many industry observers believe that SQ's aboutface made other carriers think twice about introducing the plane into their fleets or ordering more examples. Although SQ's order was small, the cancellation caused MD's stock price to plunge, as other airlines considered SQ a benchmark and the cancellation rocked investor confidence in MD. MD struggled to recover from this blow, and the depressed stock price made them an attractive acquisition target, which in turn led to Boeing's acquisition of them. The rest is history, as they say.

Ryanair!!!:
Money to burn? Well yeah apart from being cash rich (at the time), it takes a lot of money to introduce a new plane into the fleet - fixed costs are to the tune of S$20million, not to mention other recurring costs. You know lah, cautious to the point of being kiasu.

Were the 310s and 757s really two years apart? I know they were ordered at the same time, and I recall a photo of a ceremony with a 310 and a 757 nose-to-nose on the tarmac. Ah well, my bad.

Ay. I dunno if the MD11 cancellation was bashed on a.net. Probably not - the internet wasn't widely used at that time!


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4749 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1275 times:

I was in Primary 3 (1983) when my classmates and I were raving about the 3TEN... yes, I started young. My grandfather was an avid plane spotter too and he pointed out the difference between the CAL 767 and A300s to me too way back then - apparently the nose cone had a bigger black on the A300s. So there you go... he is dead, by the way.

I took one of the first few flights on the 757-200 (SQ 195... i think) from SIN - PEN in Nov 85. 6 months after the first delivery.



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User currently offlineEx_SQer From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 1435 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1269 times:

Ryan, I started young too.

My family used to go to the Changi Sailing Club every Sunday, and we used to drive past the old Paya Lebar Airport. This was before the P.I.E. came about. I couldn't see much from the road, but I always hoped that something would takeoff while we drove past! Sometimes you could see the planes landing in the distance at Paya Lebar from my School (guess which one? Hint= It's in Chiam See Tong territory.) Saw Concorde many times  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Later on when Changi Airport opened my weekend trips to the club were the highlight of my week! I used to beg my parents to take the Changi Coast Road on the way home. My Dad sometimes grudgingly obliged (he preferred the P.I.E. over the E.C.P. for some reason).

Later on in ITD I was fortunate to be in Camp 1. Loved looking over at Changi while cleaning my rifle. We even got to see the aerial display at the '88 Asian Aerospace from Botak Hill!. I was telling SQ772 on another thread that I wanted to get sent back to ITD after OCS, but that never happened!

Gawd I am a long way from home.


User currently offlineSQ772 From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 1792 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1265 times:

Thanks for history on MD11.

You weren't there during the King1, King2 era? My my, you are closer to my batch than I thought. And no, I have not figured who you are yet. The turnover for SMs and TSMs was so high during my time that you'd be lucky to be able to guess who I am....

My love for aviation started at age 3 (beat that!). My dad was a local SM for a foreign airline, so you can see where the influence came from. My first contact with airliners came my first flight on a 742 at aged 3. It was love at first sight. From then one, I always looked forward to the Air Transport World mags that my dad used to bring home.

I remember one evening, when I was 5, my dad brought me to his office at Paya Lebar Airport, and I guess security then was more lax, because I actually stood at a door that faced an SQ742 directly. It was about 50 metres in front of me. Imagine how awe struck it was. Btw, according to my dad, LKY was boarding that flight.

Brings a tear to my eyes too... hehehe



There's always a better way to fly...
User currently offlineAndrew From Singapore, joined Dec 1999, 369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1254 times:

SEx SQer wrote:

"Sometimes you could see the planes landing in the distance at Paya Lebar from my School (guess which one? Hint= It's in Chiam See Tong territory.)"

Hmmm....I'm not too sure about he GRC lines these days, but I'm guessing either:

1. Maris Stella
2. Mount Vernon
3. Bartley

I used to go to Maris Stella (1984-1993), and from there I cold see lots of aircraft coming in to land at Paya Lebar. It got really busy when the FPDA exercises were being held, and you could see the British and American jets roaring by. Ahh... those were the days.


Andrew


User currently offlineEx_SQer From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 1435 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1243 times:

No... Potong Pasir is not a GRC... not yet.... but it'll be interesting to see if the PAP screws the opposition further by re-drawing the lines again!

Think a little further east, next to the P.I.E. It's a well known school.

I'll reveal once Ryanair!!! and SQ772 give their guesses.


User currently offlineSQ772 From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 1792 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1243 times:

Andrew, you forgot St. Andrew's. It's smack in Chiam See Tong territory. Considering Ex-SQer's England is so powderful, could be from St. Andrews.
I could see planes taking off from Paya Lebar from where my primary school was (pre-1981 that is). Currently in opposition territory (WP)... make a guess haha



There's always a better way to fly...
User currently offlineSQ772 From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 1792 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1237 times:

Ha! I was right after all!!!

I used to get really excited whenever I saw an aircraft use the Southern Cross. There was once, my dad was driving me to the airport and I suddenly let out a shout when I saw an SQ744 cross it, my dad had such a fright that his car swerved. I got a scolding from him after that. BTW, I was already in my 20s then.... Embarrassment



There's always a better way to fly...
User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4749 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1213 times:

I give up... By the way, I have so many questions I want to ask the "experts" in this forum but I shall start another thread. Its about LHR. Look out for that one!


Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
25 Ex_SQer : Yes it is St Andrew's. England very powderful. Cheena limited to a few choice phrases School in WP territory? Hougang, ya? Gosh tough one... St Gabe's
26 Andrew : Damn, what would I have given to see the Concorde in the flesh with SQ colours? I wasn't even 3 years old at the time. Sigh. Andrew
27 Post contains images SQ772 : Southern Cross, the "flyover" for aircrafts near the old SATS catering....nothing to do with the 744 and my age :-P Andrew, I was already in K2 or Pri
28 Andrew : The other brother of St Gabes? Must be either Montford or Catholic High. Andrew
29 Post contains images SQ772 : Andrew, you seem rather well versed with school affiliations... ya, one of those you mentioned. Always found it a little corny to say prayers before a
30 Andrew : Well SQ772, Coming from a Catholic school myself, it's no wonder I have some idea of the affliations between schools in Singapore. I didn't have portr
31 Ex_SQer : What secondary school on the other side of the PIE? Don't recall any. I was in Pri 3 when Concordes started flying into SIN. Could see it in the dista
32 SQ772 : Andrew, what does the schedule on your ticket/confirmation slip say? I would have thought they would highlight any changes to schedules to passengers.
33 Ex_SQer : SQ772: CHIJ? Haha. It's near a public pool, isn't it? I already left St Andrew's by the time VS shifted there. Took me a while to figure out which sch
34 Post contains images SQ772 : I don't think I look good in blue pinafore... So it was St. Andrew's Junior, not secondary you were in. Or was I already left St Andrew's by the time
35 Andrew : SQ772: The confirmation slip basically says: 23DEC SQ228 MEL-SIN STD: 1605 hrs STA: 2145 hrs I have highlighted this to Krisflyer when I made the awar
36 SQ772 : I guess they will inform you once you get your ticket issued nearer the date of the flight. Reservations would usually contact passengers who have bee
37 Ex_SQer : I was in St Andrew's Secondary too. I did my O-levels in '85, so yeah we did overlap in Potong Pasir. And I was at WSMC 98. My last one. I kept a low
38 SQ772 : Yes, I heard about your case. It was brought up many times when I was in STN SIN. I sort of guessed it was you all along, when I found out that you we
39 Ex_SQer : Yeah, things were tense with them. I'm not sure what was the exact story that came to you guys at STN SIN. But what really happened was: A year before
40 Post contains images Jubilee777 : SQ777, ex_SQer, you guys got me very interested about your conversation on STN SIN and the other stuff..........perhaps it's becoz my office is just b
41 Post contains images Ex_SQer : Are you at CAAS? Bas****s, all of you. LOL. Nah, seriously, which office are you talking about and what sort of "comments" are you soliciting from us?
42 Post contains images SQ772 : J777, I would assume you in the DTM office at CAAS? As far as I recall, the guys at STN SIN didn't have much direct contact with CAAS. Ex-SQer, intere
43 Post contains images Jubilee777 : SQ777, yup, you guessed correctly. I was just wondering if you had any good / bad experiences when working with us. Or any interesting / nasty stories
44 SQ772 : J777, Seriously, I didn't have much contact with CAAS when I was in STN SIN. Guess the only time we talked to CAAS was when we were trying to get CAAS
45 Ex_SQer : SQ772: My SVP was Sim. Always tried to position himself as a "maverick" (his favourite word) but nooo... he wouldn't go out on a limb to defend poor h
46 SQ772 : Before my time?...heheh which "time" was that? What's "m*m* connection"?
47 Ex_SQer : The mama connection.... surely you have heard of it???
48 SQ772 : No, never heard of the phrase 'mama connection'. But I have a pretty good idea what it is.
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