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Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines?  
User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3015 posts, RR: 4
Posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8192 times:

Is it for the STOL capability? Seems outdated to have a plane of that size with 4 engines. What kind are they, and what thrust do they offer?


Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 8153 times:

it was originally for noise abatement.. 4 low-power turbofan engines... some people will say "its the only plane with 5 APUs", but that's the main reason there are 4 instead of 2 engines...

-nate


User currently offlineGeotrash From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 8097 times:

The engines are made by Allied Signal, and the jet is perhaps the quietest in the air.

-Geo


User currently offlineBackfire From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 8074 times:

Yes, very quiet -- especially when the engines conk out at high altitude.

An AirBC 146 lost power in three engines at 29,000ft in April 2000, prompting Transport Canada to limit the jet's operational ceiling.

Perhaps that's the reason for having four...


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 8069 times:

No, the reason is indeed noise abatement. 4 low-power ultrahigh-bypass turbofans make a lot less noise than 2 higher power high-bypass turbofans (remember this was 20 years ago, it is now possible to make a twin with about the same noiselevel in that class).
Climb performance was also an important factor. In normal service, the aircraft does not need full power to climb, but the 4 engines give it power for steep climbs from short runways (London City comes to mind, but this was originally intended for military use from unprepared strips in combat zones. The 146 was envisioned as a light tactical transport for the RAF).



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineStrickerje From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 723 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8039 times:

some people will say "its the only plane with 5 APUs"

Nahh, I've heard that said about the A340 too.  Big grin


User currently offline737heavy From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2002, 601 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 8020 times:

The first 2 stages of flap aren't half noisey.

Regards


User currently offlineNotarzt From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 642 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 8014 times:

>>some people will say "its the only plane with 5 APUs"
>>
>Nahh, I've heard that said about the A340 too.
>
Indeed!  Big grin


User currently offlineSkymonster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7962 times:

It has four engines because there's no way it'd fly with only one of those little things under each wing Big grin

User currently offlineBroke From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 1322 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7940 times:

The reason for 4 engines was a combination of required power and the desire to have as quiet an airplane as possible. Early in its career, engine failures were a real problem; which resulted in the statement that it had 4 engines so it would always have a spare handy. The engines were originally developed by Lycoming in Bridgeport, CT before they were swallowed up in the merger craze.

User currently offlineCharliecossie From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 479 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 7884 times:

Roland was once asked, "Why does the 146 have four engines?"
He replied, "Because there isn't room for five!"


User currently offlineParra From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 7856 times:

I once heard that the UK Government wanted something that could take off from the gardens of Buckingham Palace in case they needed to evacuate the royal famly. Probably a load of BS though? They could just use a helicopter or a harrier.

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 7844 times:

Given that the powerplants had some reliability problems in the begining, there were two sayings popular back then re: the BAe-146...

1/ The "BAe" stands for "bring another engine" as in unscheduled engine changes...

2/ "Why does the BAe-146 have 4 engines?" Answer: two to get you there, and 2 to get you back home......


(BAe-146 fans: Don't flame me, these were related to me by someone who used to work at AirCal)


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 13, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 7900 times:

The genesis of the 146 was not military, or related to carrying V.I.P.s.
In the early 70's, it was thought they'd be a boom in city centre airports, or more correctly 'STOLports'. To operate quiet, short take-off aircraft, the Dash 7 was also inspired by this idea.
In the early 70's, about the only possible powerplant was a fan adaptation of the powerplant fitted to CH-47 Chinook military helicopters.
The original HS-146 was axed in early 1974, due to the oil-crisis and big slump in civil aviation it caused.
As the BAe-146, the project was restarted in 1978.
Ironically the STOLport market never emerged, and the 146 didn't exactly have a huge portfolio of orders when it entered service in 1982.
It was Pacific Southwest Airlines in California who ensured the aircraft's long-term success, when it brought 25 146's in 1983 to replace 727's that could not meet tough local airport noise regs, and the 146 was more economical and suited in size for many of PSA's routes anyway.
Of course Air Winsconsin was the first US operator, but PSA was then seen as a bigger, more innovative airline, which also operated full-size ailiners like the 727 and MD-80.


User currently offlineVh-daq From Hong Kong, joined Nov 2001, 182 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 7780 times:


5 apu's : "I've heard that said about the A340 too."

BAE- bring another engine and the 340 just has hairdryers!

HOOroo
DAQ




User currently offlineSSTjumbo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7746 times:

Hey, could someone let me in on more of these STOLports? I'd like to know where more of them are. Is CGX considered one? Thanks  Smile

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 16, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7724 times:

London City is one, but they never really took off-pardon the pun!


User currently offlineMiller22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 720 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 7666 times:

I was told the wing of the 146 didn't have the hardpoints that could support the weight of 2 larger engines, so they went with 4 smaller.

User currently offlineAamd11 From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1061 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 7623 times:

Miller22 is right there.
It was in the 70s when it was first designed, that there were no suitable engines of which the 146 could have one of each on its wings. the RR Spey and Jr. Spey were far too heavy for the 146s wings to hold, so they opted for four smaller engines instead.

Hope that helps.


User currently offlineAcidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (12 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7557 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Where I work, our RJ85's (same idea) go to Aspen, CO (ASE) which has like a 9000' elevation. The BAe146 family is really the only commercial aircraft that goes into there since nothing else can match the lost-engine performance on takeoff at that high of an altitude. Private jets (usually twin engines) go in there, but if you were to lose an engine at that altitude upon takeoff, I'd imagine that could be rough.


Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8018 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (12 years 4 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7498 times:

Having flown on a BAe-146, on thing you notice is how fast the plane climbs off the runway and stops during landing, mostly because of the large flaps on the wings and the slow landing speed.

This is why I'm disappointed AC didn't buy the RJX-100; such large safety margins would make the plane perfect for operations during harsh Canadian winters, especially on ice-prone runways.


User currently offlineTrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3242 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (12 years 4 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7408 times:

GDB beat me to it, the Dash 7 was also designed along the same lines and has 4 Pratt and Whitney PT-6 engines (ie Twin Otter engines!). Again the philosophy was to operate from city airports and thus quietness and ability to climb steeply from short runways were major considerations. The city airport boom did not materialize and the Dash 7 remained a relatively poor seller - selling just about 111.

Trintocan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (12 years 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7332 times:

Like it was said earlier, when the plane was designed, they originally were going to use two engines. The story I read was not that the proposed engines were too heavy, rather that they engines they wanted to use would not be available on a timetable that suited BAe, so the Lycoming jet engines were decided on and the number of engines went to four due to the lesser power of the new engines.

User currently offlineDuncan From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (12 years 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7311 times:

I saw a proposal for the 146 for HP (AmWest) and one of the big selling points was the 3 engine ferry flight capability. If one engine goes t*ts up, you can ferry the aircraft back with only 3 engines to save the cost of shipping a motor and installing it at an outstation. Obviously a selling point, given the reported unreliability mentioned above!  Big grin

Duncan


User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (12 years 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7278 times:

I think the BAe-146/Avro ARJ is a good looking airplane. I like the 717-200 a hell of alot better though. The 717 is quieter in my opinion, and it smells better. The BAe smells decent enough, and I would fly on one anyday, but if you had a BAe-146, and a 717 sitting right next to each other, and you gave me a choice, I would take the 717

25 RJ : Why Does The BAe-146 Have 4 Engines? Because it can!!!! Happy flying!!! RJ (I just couldn't resist)
26 Post contains images Duncan : I can't wait for the day that airlines choose a type of plane because of it's smell I can't wait to see the odor characteristics on the spec sheet I c
27 TWAMD-80 : Hey, do the engines on the 146 have thrust reversers? I have never seen them. I know they put out a big air brake right before touchdown, but I'm not
28 BR715-A1-30 : None of the BAe-146/Avro RJ have thrust reversers. The design of the wing, and the air brakes act in place of the thrust reversers
29 LZ-TLT : This was told be by a BA employee at CGN: "What stands the 146 in BAe-146 for?" 1 engine will always fail it has 4 but it really needs 6
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