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American Eagle Preparing To Sell 14 ERJ-145s  
User currently offlineScottysAir From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (12 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2848 times:

FORT WORTH, Texas, July 17 /PRNewswire/ -- American Eagle today announced that it has reached an agreement in principle to dispose of 14 ERJ-145, 50-seat regional jets. Ultimately, these airplanes will be acquired by Trans States Airlines, an AmericanConnection carrier. The potential deal still
requires the consent of the companies financing these aircraft and is subject
to the negotiation of final documentation.
"We're undertaking this move to ensure American remains in compliance with
its Allied Pilots Association contract," said Peter Bowler, American Eagle's
president. "We've always hoped that American and the APA would reach
agreement on increasing the number of RJs that we can fly. But, in the absence of such an agreement, we must dispose of these airplanes. We are at
least pleased that these planes will be flown by airlines connecting passengers to American rather than to one of American's competitors."
American's pilot contract limits the total flying done by regional airlines on American's code. One of the provisions of that contract limits the total number of regional jets with more than 44 seats flown under the AA code to 67 aircraft. Eagle's current delivery schedule of firm orders for new Bombardier CRJ aircraft, which feature seating for 70 passengers, will place the airline at this cap in January 2003.
The limitation places American Eagle at a competitive disadvantage to its
competitors.
"Eagle is proud to operate more than 130 new regional jets from hubs and
other cities across the country," Bowler said. "However, when expressed as a
percentage of the total American Airlines fleet, Eagle's regional jet fleet is considerably smaller than the comparable figure for American's competitors and
their regional affiliates."
If all parties approve the potential transactions, the planes will be delivered to Trans States beginning in November with the transition completed by early 2004. Operating the planes under its "AX" airline code, Trans States will determine how to deploy the aircraft later this year, with the first phase of deployment scheduled for its St. Louis hub where it feeds American Airlines.

Current AMR Corp. (NYSE: AMR) releases can be found via the Internet.
The address is http://www.amrcorp.com



32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePenguinflies From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 988 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (12 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2790 times:

I was wondering what is the AX code? American Connection Code? or TSA code (which i thought was 9N).

User currently offlineAcvitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (12 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

American Connection it is a scheme drawn up to get around scope by coding Trans States and Chautauqua flights as AX from out stations and then codesharing on AA metal as AX as well...

User currently offlineBoiler Special From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 135 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (12 years 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2721 times:

The "AX" code won't be made much of in the public eye, it really only concerns travel agencies and others who book travel through Sabre or other CRS'. To the regular passenger booking travel on AA.com or through Orbitz, etc. there is no difference.

User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4488 posts, RR: 33
Reply 4, posted (12 years 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2634 times:

If AA is going to use Trans States to get around the Eagle scope restrictions, I wonder if that means they'll restore Eagle regional service in Upstate NY to BOS and New York? Sure they're starting at STL, but they've got scope-casualty routes elsewhere to restore. Just wondering.

Score: APA Scope Nazis ("NO RJ's FOR YOU!!") 1, AA 1.

Jim



User currently offlineBoiler Special From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 135 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (12 years 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2613 times:

Eagle's scope clause (yep, they've got one too!) basically prohibits any AAC flying in Eagle "hub" markets. So picking up LGA/JFK/BOS flying is out of the question.

User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4488 posts, RR: 33
Reply 6, posted (12 years 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2596 times:

Of course....just like Comair, the union wants to make sure the airline has absolutely no way to preserve service for passengers and communities. Who needs passengers anyway? It's all about the pilots!

Oh well, more traffic for the low-fare carriers. Members of my family in Rochester have already flown JetBlue down to JFK to pick up flights to Europe. And US Airways Express has Boston covered from Upstate NY, until someone with lower costs comes along--probably AirTran, which has been targeting underserved high-fare routes.

Jim


User currently offlineJ32driver From United States of America, joined May 2000, 399 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (12 years 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 2521 times:

Okay, they way I understad this is: TSA can fly the RJs in STL and not be in scope violation because "technically" they are not feeding AA. What happens to TSA when the merging of TWA and AA is complete in 3 years? THEN they will be in scope violation and all these shiny new airplanes, not to mention the props, must stop feeding AA or a court is going to make the Eagle pilots union a whole lot of money.

Hulas has dodged another bullet, but its only temporary. The clock is ticking.


User currently offlineChautauquasaab From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 2510 times:

So what would happen if they removed two rows of seats in each 145 to reduce the number to 44? MRTC for American Eagle! Would that let them slide under the cap?

User currently offlineKUGN From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 615 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (12 years 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 2487 times:

I'd rather see build-up of American Connection, along the AE phaseout. That way APA Nazis can not controll feeder routes.

User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 2468 times:

"Gag and Bag this Nazi Muffin."

I think the APA is doing a good job reducing AA's Fleet. It is just too bad these planes aren't going to a competitor. I would really love to slip the rug from AA's Feet. I thought the ALPA had a contract with AA, or is that UA, and DL?


User currently offlineMiller22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 717 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (12 years 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2417 times:

Well said DCA-ROCguy. Unions don't know how to make money, just ask Braniff, Eastern and Continental (The old continental before Trans Texas took over and renamed themselves to Continental). All they care about is that they get money and they want to feel more important than the rest of the world...hence the guns in the cockpit...

User currently offlineAA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (12 years 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2415 times:

Soooo, would any of you "APA Scope Nazi" haters out there gleefully watch YOUR jobs disappear? 'Hey boss, you found a temp company that can do my job(sitting at the desk next to me, using our company's materials) cheaper than I can? SUPER! You go get as many of those temps as you want...'

RJ's are cheaper than mainline ONLY because the pilots and FA's are paid WAY below market rates for the ASM's they generate. (Non-crew related CASM's on RJ's are HIGHER than a 757.) As the pilot job market stagnates those flying the RJ's will realize this is where they will be for the next 8-10 years(JB and SW can't hire everyone) and they will want a liveable wage. (Note: Comair pilots got a raise--just a start. When ASA and SkyWest demand parity, watch DAL begin looking outside their subsidiary carriers{yes, I know SkyWest isn't wholly owned}. OOPS! They just signed Chautauqua to fly in the low-yield Florida market. I guess it's already starting. {Note to Brian Bedford--you aren't immune to jet pilots' desire to be compensated properly for the ASM's flown, either.})

Bottom line--the "cartel" carriers are milking the RJ's just like they milked the B scale. Most pilots aren't very savvy business types but we do learn from our mistakes.

Oh, I almost left out one important item--how long will the Jet Blue and SW pilots keep working for wages well below those of the "cartel" carriers? Rah, Rah doesn't pay the bills.TC



FL450, M.85
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 2385 times:

I think the APA is doing a good job reducing AA's Fleet. I thought the ALPA had a contract with AA, or is that UA, and DL?

Do you even know what APA and ALPA stand for? Or are you just throwing acronyms around in the hope that you might say something profound?


User currently offlineMiller22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 717 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (12 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2332 times:

And whose jobs are dissappearing because of RJ's? I only see thousands of jobs being created! If four RJ pilots can be hired compared to one MD-80 pilot, isn't that a win for the union, or do they only care about the guys at the top (who by the way are the ones least likely to lose their jobs)? And how can the same union who supposedly represents RJ pilots, also demand scope agreements which clearly hurt the very pilot group they claim to represent? Or does it all have to do with who pays the most dues? Isn't that taxation without representation? Look long term people, scope doesn't save pilot's jobs, it prevents them.

User currently offlineHoustondallas From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 92 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (12 years 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2314 times:

AA717Driver wrote:

"RJ's are cheaper than mainline ONLY because the pilots and FA's are paid WAY below market rates for the ASM's they generate. "

Market rates? Care to imagine why the market rate is higher? It's because of the extorionist tactics used by all unions to make there members paid more than the last guy!

The pilots and FA's working for jetblue and SW are paid something close to a market rate, but their wages are still inflated because the market in general has to overpay their people to ensure they don't go on strike and destroy the company.

houston


User currently offlineSeiple From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2285 times:


I think the APA is doing a good job reducing AA's Fleet. It is just too bad these planes aren't going to a competitor. I would really love to slip the rug from AA's Feet. I thought the ALPA had a contract with AA, or is that UA, and DL?


Let's see here....
You like the union, yet are unhappy the airplanes aren't going to a competitor to help destroy the jobs of the union members?

Make up your mind. Which one is it?


User currently offlineAA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (12 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2213 times:

Houstondallas--How low would you go? Rampers make $60k/year. Should everyone make that regardless of what it took to get there? Should you require only a GED to be a pilot? Should pilots be paid less than part-time real estate agents or long-haul truckers?

Extortionist tactics? More airlines have been delt a death blow by lousy management than by flight crew pay OR strikes.

Market rates are set by the market--not by strongarm tactics. The UAL payscales are, when adjusted for inflation, the same as 1981. The airline management has been living off employee concessions since the late '80's. The American public has grown accustomed to fire-sale fares depressed by low-cost(meaning low pay and benefits and marginal service and infrastructure) airlines.

Tell me, what was the last successful strike? Comair didn't get everything they wanted. NW's was not successful--I believe their SCOPE clause got gutted. AA's was a dismal failure due to government interference. There will be no more strikes because even the most Liberal, labor-friendly President will not allow it.

But, Houstondallas, the final arbiter of my worth as a pilot are those in the back of the plane on a dark and stormy night, the death-grip on their armrests
offering only the illusion of control over their destiny. Think they want the lowest bidder driving the plane?TC



FL450, M.85
User currently offlineMiller22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 717 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (12 years 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2183 times:

But, Houstondallas, the final arbiter of my worth as a pilot are those in the back of the plane on a dark and stormy night, the death-grip on their armrests
offering only the illusion of control over their destiny. Think they want the lowest bidder driving the plane?TC


So a pilot who makes $300,000 is better than one who makes $100,000?

Its easy to blame management on failed airlines, but lets look at a current case, USAirways. They have the highest operating costs in the industry, and the reason is because of their almost double crew cost per operating hour. That takes into account both pay rate, and work rules which means USAirways has to pay for crews who aren't even flying the flight. But of course the union has nothing to do with that airlines problems.

Back to the heart of the discussion...RJ's are the wave of the future, and I'm dissappointed some of the pilots at the majors have too much pride and shortsightedness to acknowledge that.


User currently offlineHoustondallas From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 92 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (12 years 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2166 times:

717driver

I'm not saying pilots should make $60k per year. My question is why are rampers making $60k per year??? Doesn't that seem like a shitload of money? It's completely disproportionate with what the economy is willing to pay unskilled labour. It's supposed to be about supply and demand. If there is an abundance of supply, the cost is low. There is certainly an over-abundance of unskilled labour, but unions have ensured that airlines have to pay their unskilled labour what an engineer gets paid. Does that sound right to you? Ohh, that's right, engineers aren't really represented by unions. I guess if they were, they'd be making $120k per year, and planes would cost twice as much to design.

Pilots should be paid what the market bears. If there is an under-supply of pilots, their pay would be higher since they would be in demand. Hey, if you choose a profession in which their are too many people fighting for the few jobs that are avaialbale, tough luck, that's capitalism.

Take a look around you. Haven't you noticed that manufacturing jobs are leaving the country in droves. Why? Beacuse unions are pricing America (and most other first world nations) out of the picture. Unions are leading to the death of the middle class. All of those decent paying manufacturing jobs are disappearing because unions are demanding that there members need more money. Unions haven't realized that their have been some fundamental changes in the way the economy operates. Globalisation is real, and it will have dramatic effects in most first world nations. Their will be a glut of unskilled labour with no jobs waiting for them. What are they going to do? The only real course of action is to spendmore money on education so that those economies rely on their skilled labour strengths to add value.

And lastly, yes extorionist tactics is what I said. "Hey, pay us all more money, or we're not working and you have to ground the airline" Is that not extortion? What options do the airlines have? Either pay them more money, or watch your airline disintegrate. At least in manufacturing, the jobs can be relocated to a lower cost producer. Companies need to be able to compete with the competition globally. That means it becomes impossible to continue to operate your manufacturing operations in coutries in which the labour rates are the highest in the world. The only saviour for the airline industry is that it is a service industry, which is only somewhat effected by globalisation.

Sorry for the rant

BTW, not all unions can be swept by the same brush I must admit. Some work well with management to help their companies stay competative. It's a shame most are completely unwilling to realize that their tactics will eventually result in the demise of their members jobs in the long term.

houston


User currently offlineLindy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (12 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2139 times:

Excuse me, Can you kindly tell me where rampers make $60K/year?
I would love to move there and work as a ramp agent.

Ramp Agents make $9/hr and that's a really shitload of money!

Rafal


User currently offlineMeechy36 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (12 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2075 times:

BR17-15 writes "Gag and bag this Nazi Muffin." This kid cannot help but shoot himself in the foot every time he sits down in front of the computer. I particularly loved the part about ALPA and American, or was that UA or DL, APA who? where? What a nitwit.

HoustonDallas writes that the unions "extort money" from the airlines by saying "pay us more or we're not working." that isn't extortion, that's negotiating under the Railway Labor Act, love it or hate it, it's here to stay. There isn't a union out there who is going to accept the "Baseball Style" arbitration that they are trying to cram down our throat.

Mike-BOS


User currently offlineAA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (12 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2045 times:

Houstondallas--What should pilots be paid? Should it be a floating scale based on the availability of warm bodies?

Yes, the pilot making $300k IS a better pilot than the one making $100k. He is at the top of the pay scale because he or she has been doing the job longer. That experience level is recognized and rewarded by pay and bidding seniority.

Sure, you could import foreigners to fly your family for $30k a year. You can farm out maintenance to foreign repair stations....Oops, the airlines already did that. The DAL MD88 at PNS with the uncontained engine failure and resulting fatality was freshly overhauled in Turkey. ValueJet also had an engine go boom shortly after being overhauled overseas. Perhaps they fly airplanes better than they maintain them.

Rampers making $60k? TWA had plenty of them--it took overtime, though. That is when they had a basic pay of $36k/yr. Now, AA is paying them $48k with no overtime.

Screwing together a PT Cruiser is not the same as flying or maintaining an airplane. Manufacturing jobs are going to other countries because their economies are so depressed that wages are laughably low--and they won't rise because the parent companies' extortionist tactic of threatening to move the plant in search of lower wages. The spectre of being plunged back into poverty is a strong motivator, wouldn't you agree?

As far as a glut of unskilled labor in the U.S., have you gone into a fast-food restaurant lately that DIDN'T have a 'help wanted' sign outside? Taco Bell and bank teller positions are paying $7-11/hr. WITH benefits.

Pilots, mechanics and, to a less obvious extent, cabin attendants are skilled labor. Do the best doctors make the most money? How about attorneys? CEO's--well, bad example, they ALL make big bucks these days. Can a software company that doesn't pay top dollar in SJC attract the best computer jocks? What should top dollar be for programers? Can the best be worth the pay if he or she makes few or no mistakes?

You have to make a distinction between skilled and unskilled labor. The performance of unskilled labor is generally uniform. With skilled labor, you get what you pay for.

Respectfully, TC



FL450, M.85
User currently offlineCV640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (12 years 6 days ago) and read 2017 times:

I usually stay away from arguents with pay and unions, but I'll bite on this one.

A lot of people here scream about the $250,000-$300,000 airline captain and blame them for most of the losses. Remember this, in order to make that much at a carrier you need to be flying th largets piece of equpment they got with good schedule. If your at United that would be the 747. I don't know how many they have, but say its 40. That is around 300 Captains, they have over 9000 pilots so only a very small number make that money. It takes around 20-25 yearsto get to that position. Before the downturn the average age of a new hire at most carriers was 36-38. If your 36 and it takes you 20 years, you get 4 years at that pay scale before the governemt says you have to retire. If it takes 25 years, you'll never achieve that pay scale. As for starting pay at a major, it is anywhere from $25,000-$40,000, really impressive.

Before you could get to this level you'd need to have around 5000 hours. So, many years ahead in instructing, flying freight, crporate and regionals. Instructor make really good money, maybe $10,000 a year. The regionals, hey we start at $18,000. Of course you could always go military and sign away 9 years of your life going to such exotic destinations as Irag, Bosnia, etc. All this with the added bonus of getting shot at.

ow as for low cost carrers, they actually pay their pilots quite well for the equpemnt they fly. Yes, Southwest is a lot lower then United and Delta for 737s, but the company is talking about huge raises and their union is demanding it. Air Tran just goit a very large raise with their last conract are among the ighest paid for the 100 seat category. Jetblue has among the highest first year pay and their Captains do all right, they only have a few years with the company, so that is the reason their pay is lower.


User currently offlineAA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (12 years 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1989 times:

Thanks, CV. I don't criticize what surgeons make because I haven't done the program. Too many people look at the "bullet points" of being a pilot and base their criticisim on that snippet of information.

If you're at a regional, hang in there. The pay will get better and the majors will start hiring again.TC



FL450, M.85
25 Doug_Or : Exactly. Everyone sees the $300,000 figure, and convienentaly overlook the fact that the new hires are making between 1/10th and 1/8th of that.
26 CV640 : Thanks AA717, yeah just hate having to defend saleries. Everyone thinks that you just pop out of school and into the left seat of the 747, they forget
27 Lowfareair : I'm gonna take a stab in the dark, but for some unknown reason, my gut says he's on the -80. Unless of course he got furloughed and is now living in a
28 DCA-ROCguy : Scope clauses are a rear-guard action by the Cartel pilot unions against an inevitable future. Aviation Week recently reported that AA has low-fare co
29 Doug_Or : I have no problem lowering mainline pay (at the top), and reduceing/eliminating scope cluases IF the RJ flying is done by pilots being moneytairily co
30 Dazed767 : Is AA/Eagle still trying to cut the fleet type from 14 (now 13 with the 727 gone) down to 7? Maybe this is one way of doing it.
31 Doug_Or : sigh. noooooo. they are not getting rid of the ERJs as a fleet type. they are selling 14 to skirt the scope contracts of AA and AE pilots.
32 PSU.DTW.SCE : Well, its interesting to see how this thread changed off topic but I can totally see where the pilots here are coming from. One of my roommates in my
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