Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Sobelair Starts BRU-JHB Service  
User currently offlinePressclub From Belgium, joined Nov 2001, 774 posts, RR: 5
Posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1554 times:

A newspaper (that SN 690 does not read unfortunately) had this morning the news that the Belgian chartercompany SOBELAIR will start a regular service between Brussels and Johannesburg. First flight will be around november 15 with the Q7 'line' code of SLR. A big other airline will codeshare this new link between Belgium and South Africa.

It will be a flight wiht a 2 class offer.

Not clear yet which aircraft type. As you know, SLR flies the 767-300 ER but this aircraft is handicapped due to weight and range restrictions (almost no cargo possible on the return after the take-off at the high level JHB airport)...

Pressclub



25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineApuneger From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 3032 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1528 times:

Interesting news indeed. No news who will be the other big airline? SAA maybe? Just guessing, you know...

About the aircraft: Well, if they can't fly 767's to JHB, maybe they'll lease an A330 from VG or SN BA, who knows? Or they'll lease an A340.

But, I'd prefer to see a SLR 747 (-400) !!!

Thanks for the info, Pressclub. Too bad I also don't read this newspaper  Wink/being sarcastic

Ivan



Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
User currently offlineLj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1512 times:

It will probably be a B767 as the DCA contract will be expired by then and SLR won't fly for DCA after the expiration of the current contract (at least that's the latest rumour in AMS). As for weight restrictions, if they make a stop in NBO or another Middle African city they do it.

BTW you probably mean JNB not JHB.

Regards
Laurens


User currently offlineEstablished02 From Belgium, joined Jan 2002, 536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1498 times:

> maybe they'll lease an A330

Does any airline fly the A330 to JNB?

> A big other airline will codeshare this new link
>> SAA maybe?

SAA teaming up with SLR?

With some imagination, I guess SNBA could also be considered as "a big airline"! I thought SNBA and SLR were previously considering some kind of cooperation, didn't they? SNBA could help feeding the JNB flights through their European network and offer other kinds of services.



User currently offlineSAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1491 times:

Hmmmm, I wonder if the other airline could be Nationwide of South Africa? Not that I would describe them as a "big airline", though!

I'm still very seriously concerned about the viability of this route, though. Sabena couldn't make it pay ... what makes Sobelair think they can?


User currently offlineKenny From Belgium, joined Aug 2001, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1476 times:

Hmmm, interesting news, although the previously related companies (DAT & SLR) are kind of competitors right now  Smile

Greetz,
Kenny


User currently offlinePressclub From Belgium, joined Nov 2001, 774 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1438 times:

I think it will be 767-300 ER or the becoming more and more popular A 330-200...



User currently offlineSN-A330 From Belgium, joined Aug 2001, 1129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1433 times:


thanks for the news Pressclub !

Regards, SN-A330




I would rather be flying...
User currently offlineEstablished02 From Belgium, joined Jan 2002, 536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1415 times:

Another newspaper (DS) mentions that SLR will fly three times a week between BRU & JNB. SLR thinks that a lot of tourists and business people will show interest in a direct flight. Furthermore, South-Africa is reported to have a large Belgian community.



User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1411 times:

Thanks for the news Pressclub!

And unfortunately, I don't read your newspaper  Crying If we would buy the one of you too, this would make 3 daily newspapers! Big grin

Regards,
Frederic


User currently offlineSN-A330 From Belgium, joined Aug 2001, 1129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1404 times:

a lot of tourists and business people will show interest in a direct flight

Who can confirm that the A330 is better suited than B767 for direct flights to fly BRU-JNB ? What I mean is: can SLR fly the route with B767 or is the A330 a big advantage ?

Regards, SN-A330




I would rather be flying...
User currently offlineA330 From Belgium, joined May 1999, 649 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1399 times:

The B767.300ER has the range, but will be severely payload restricted during SA Summer months. Remember that Johannesburgh is situated at a high altitude (will try to find the charts in my archive) and high temp. in summer. Hence a very high density altitude, so less performance... Performance limited TOM!
I can get more into detail, but then that should suit the technical forum more...

Thank you Pressclub for the info!



Shiek!
User currently offlineSN-A330 From Belgium, joined Aug 2001, 1129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1393 times:


Thanks A330 !

If you have any further info, please email it to me, if it's not to much work. My email is in my profile.

Regards, SN-A330




I would rather be flying...
User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1393 times:

You may always email it to me too if you want.

Thanks,
Frederic


User currently offlineLeo From China, joined May 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1343 times:

In the old SABENA days the BRU-JNB route was the lowest yield route between Europe and the RSA. The outbound day-light service never really paid off as volumes and yield remained very low.

SN managed to attract a lot of UK passengers from the UK regional airports through their DAT AVRO connecting services. In addition SN operated A321 from GVA and AMS to fill the JNB flights.

So where is Sobelair going to find the passengers .......?

They do not have the route or sales network.

Another....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © George W. Hamlin
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Kelly



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Torsten Maiwald
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stefan Gruenig



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andy Martin
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Remi Dallot



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Abbott



User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1339 times:

I would have thought the UK 'regiona'l traffic would be much lower yield than ex-London.

User currently offlineSAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1307 times:

Yields on JNB were extremely low, and SN common-rated all of its European destinations with BRU so effectively the connections were free, in an effort to attract connecting pax.

Even with all that, they couldn't make it work!


User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1305 times:

You have to count in some other factors for the low yields:

- The MD11 that Sabena used

- The flights of SR/SA from ZRH to JHB

.....

Can this flight become profitable without these factors?

Rgds
Frederic



User currently offlineFlying Belgian From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 2390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (12 years 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1246 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Well according to Le Soir newspaper, the JNB service is planned to begin by 15th november. They will stick to the 3 767-300 they already have (a former Balair has joined recently SLR). The likely partner would be South African Airways, which surprises me a bit as Vastapane is linked to Nationwide.

Vastapane would also like to launch regular flights to Cairo, Istanbul & Moscow and would therefore negociate possible code sharing with SNBA.
Those flights would be lauched by march 2003.

It seems now that the Belgium-SA market has a big potential for a Belgian Airline, now that SR has stopped stealing pax (of course Sabena doesn't exist anymore...) and that they sold their stake in SAA.

See you !!


FB.



Life is great at 41.000 feet...
User currently offlinePressclub From Belgium, joined Nov 2001, 774 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (12 years 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1249 times:

You are right Sabena 690. Swissair was shareholder of Sabena but on the JHB route they were big competitors as Swissair joined forces with SAA and Sabena had to do it on their own.

Sabena had also a less interesting schedule and not an up to standard inflight product

Other handicap: the MD 11 with a leaserate twice the market standard and not that comfortable in C Class...

So what happened: SR took all the C Class pax (thanks to the AMP structure) and gave all Y Class to Sabena...











User currently offlineLeo From China, joined May 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1223 times:

Have BRU market conditions changed or did I miss something:

# SWISS operate a daily BRU-ZRH-JNB with the MD11 this winter.
# BA operate twice daily BRU-LHR-JNB with B747-400
# BA operate 10x weekly BRU-JNB-CPT with B747-400
# KLM operates 11x weekly BRU-AMS-JNB with B747-400
# LH operates 2x daily BRU-FRA-JNB with B747-400 (incl. SAA codeshare)
# LH operate 3x weekly BRU-MUC-JNB with A340
# SAA operate 2x daily BRU-FRA-JNB in codeshare with LH

not to forget the services of IB, TP, AZ, AF and others

Is the BRU-JNB market really underserved ?


User currently offlineLj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (12 years 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1212 times:

Does anyone really believe C-class passengers will travel with a charter airline like SLR who only has three weekly flights into JNB (wheras all the other competitors offer at least daily flights)??? However, good luck (they'll need it)!!!

User currently offlineMyself From Belgium, joined Feb 2001, 207 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (12 years 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1211 times:

Additional consideration :

The BRU-JNB-BRU rotation (> 24hrs) does not allow a 7/7 or even 5/7 service, hence the 3/7 schedule...but this does leave the aircraft grounded 4 days out of 7, unless an additional and suitable route can be served with this aircraft in its configuration.

Without any extra flights for this aircraft, I would also have a hard time believing they will ever operate this route profitably because leasing rate per hour would be very high.

Curious to see the study they made, maybe there is some feeding on the other end of the line, but will it be enough ?


User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (12 years 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1190 times:

You are right Sabena 690

Thanks! Well, I read a book named 'The crash of Sabena', and I learned a lot out of it. So from now on only objective point of views!! Big grin

Regards,
Frederic


User currently offlineIVO From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 470 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (12 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1112 times:

SAS23,

Look at "Flight International" issue 11-17 june.

"Nationwide to start long-haul services to Europe"

Southern African leisure carrier Nationwide Airlines plans to start long-haul
services later this year on routes from its JNB base to Europe.
The airline aims to serve Brussels with extensions to London Gatwick and
Munich. Nationwide's commercial executive Chris Hoare says the airline hopes
to launch services by the end of august using two Boeing 747-300 leased
from Boeing. The airline is targeting leisure, conference and incentive markets
in Benelux countries, Germany and the UK, and has set up a risk-sharing
partnership with a Belgium consortium, which will handle sales and administration in Europe.

Regards
Ivo


User currently offlineSAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (12 years 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1094 times:

Ivo, I'm aware of that article. I also know Vernon Bricknell rather well, and I seriously doubt his ability to operate such a service. He has a habit of chopping and changing his plans on a frequent basis: this operation originally started as an MD11; in the Flight article it refers to two B747-300s; and now if the Sobelair tie-up is accurate, it's B767s. From the commercial and operational viewpoint, airlines select aircraft based on the routes they believe they can operate viably; not the other way round!  Big grin

As I said earlier, the major operators have the European routes sewn up: BA, SA, VS, LH etc. The reality is that the high yield business travellers want to fly on airlines that allow them to accumulate frequent flyer miles with one or more of the global alliances; if those are not available, fares have to be significantly lower (25 to 50%) than those of the major carriers in order to attract the pax. The market to Belgium isn't a considerable one, and SN relied on their extensive European network to feed pax using common rated fares.

The last independent South African airline that tried this was Gert de Klerk's Avia, which leased an SAA B747SP ... and only lasted a couple of months. It operated to LGW ... and it was a complete disaster.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Horizon Starts Redmond-LAX Service Tommorow! posted Tue Aug 1 2006 01:52:05 by Alaska737
Emirates Starts 3rd JFK Service Via HAM posted Sun Apr 9 2006 18:54:17 by Srilankan
CX Cargo Starts HKG-DFW Service Tonight! posted Sun Nov 20 2005 01:22:42 by AirStatDFW
Horizon Starts Santa Brabara Service posted Fri Oct 29 2004 20:21:53 by Iowaman
Continental Starts 757-300 Service To ANC posted Thu Apr 8 2004 01:12:25 by Randy4920
Sun Country Starts RST-LAS Service posted Wed Feb 18 2004 22:12:24 by Rampmike
FL Starts DFW-LAS Service posted Sun Nov 2 2003 03:05:47 by Delta767-400
Spirit Airlines Starts ORD-LAS Service On 12/19/02 posted Sat Nov 9 2002 20:56:41 by National_757
Sobelair Starts South Africa In Novembera posted Wed Sep 25 2002 20:10:06 by Pressclub
El Al Starts 777-200 Service To Miami On Sunday! posted Fri Aug 2 2002 03:45:58 by MAH4546