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Caac Received CX's Application On China's Routes  
User currently offlineCarnoc From China, joined Oct 2001, 875 posts, RR: 0
Posted (12 years 4 months 2 days ago) and read 2030 times:

According to a Chinese newspaper which is based in Guangdong province of People's Republic of China (mainland China) -- Canton Information Daily, it reported today that the Civil Aviation Administration of China's (CAAC) head chief, Yang Yuanyuan (Mr.) confirmed that it is true that CAAC has been received an application on reopening routes to mainland Chinese cities from Cathay Pacific Airways.

He indicated that the CAAC has generally no opposition opinions to allowing Cathay Pacific Airways resumes some of its routes to mainland China, but some matters need to be discussed by both sides. For example, which mainland Chinese city will be served by Cathay Pacific Airways? How many flights will Cathay Pacific Airways be able on services to mainland China etc.

Because of the reasons mentioned above, CAAC officers indirectly told media that they believe both sides need sometime to solve those problems and the agreement is unlikely to be signed very soon.

More info in Chinese @ http://www.carnoc.com/cgi-bin/news/news.cgi?job=shownews&listxwno=2002,07,31154615

Also, thanks for some China's civil aviation professors' advises and the assistance provided by some registered users of the Civil Aviation Resource Net of China @ http://www.carnoc.com.

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHkgspotter1 From Hong Kong, joined Nov 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (12 years 4 months 2 days ago) and read 2011 times:

Lets hope CX does get back to Shanghai and Beijing !!

User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6626 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (12 years 4 months 2 days ago) and read 2001 times:

Yes, let's hope we can expand into China in a major way, as it will go a long way to helping Cathay become more of a superpower around Asia. Maybe we will get a shorthaul fleet as well!!

User currently offline9V-SPK From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2001, 1646 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1989 times:

I agree with Cx flyboy, they might get a short-haul fleet if they expand to China. However I do not think that they'd follow the same way as KA, IMO CX would start flights to the 2 major cities in China - Shanghai and Beijing. There will not be a need for shorthaul fleets for these routes due to the great demand. However if they decided to exapnd into China more deeply and compete with other China Airline's and KA, there would be a need for them!

Anyways, it'd be great news because foreigners cannot transit directly in Hong Kong, when they have to take different airlines to get to their destination. When CX returns to China, it'd be another new milestone for them.

Best Regards


User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 779 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1987 times:

Sweet!

Well, Air China and Dragonair have been getting closer together under CNAC/CAAC auspices. Time for China Eastern & Cathay to co-operate even more.

Carnoc, in your view, are Cathay & Dragonair Chinese or not? It always amuses me when MU or CA staff in outports talk about Chinese airlines, but ignore CI/BR/CX etc. forgetting that Taiwan & HK are part of China...

If its got a B reg, its Chinese is my view.


User currently offlineCarnoc From China, joined Oct 2001, 875 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1977 times:

Lutfi, it is actually difficult to answer your question, I do consider Dragonair & Cathay Pacific Airways as Hong Kong (SAR) carriers, but I don't really know are they belonging to the category of Chinese airlines (in this case, I would think Chinese airlines are likely = mainland China-based carriers).

In fact, in mainland China, people do also not say Cathay Pacific Airways and Dragonair are Chinese airlines, they usually prefer to call them Hong Kong (SAR)-based carriers and the same for Air Macau I think.


User currently offlineN949WP From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2000, 1437 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1970 times:

CX and KA has to remain "Hong Kong" carriers legally (in terms of ownership) or they could lose traffic rights awarded to them under the air services agreements signed by Hong Kong with other nations.

Similar reason why SQ couldn't own more than half of Virgin without turning VS into a "Singaporean" airline.

'949


User currently offlineCarnoc From China, joined Oct 2001, 875 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1937 times:

Recently, Cathay Pacific Airways established its first new toll-free hotline for all passenger euquires from mainland China. More infomation @ Cathay Pacific Airways' official web site (English and Cantonese versions are available).

Also, there were some unpublished news reports said today that many Cathay Pacific Airways' important persons (not really mention their names) told a lot of media organizations that Cathay Pacific Airways believes that China will be certainly on its strongest wishlist and they strongly think the market of mainland China for Cathay Pacific Airways can be very impressive.

On the other hand, if Cathay Pacific Airways serves mainland China, it will add credits to mainland China, Hong Kong (SAR) and of course the leading Hong Kong (SAR)-based carrier -- Cathay Pacific Airways as well.


User currently offlineCarnoc From China, joined Oct 2001, 875 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1919 times:

Some civil aviation experts analysed some changes may be caused later on if Cathay Pacific Airways gets permitted to serve mainland China.

If Cathay Pacific Airways begins services to mainland China, Cathay Pacific Airways is likely to increse its passenger capacity in the following occupations:

* Chinese students who are studying in overseas

* Chinese business travellers

* Tourists from both China & other countries where serve by Cathay Pacific Airways

* Foreign (non-Chinese) business travellers

* Taiwanese business travellers

* One World Alliance member carriers' frequent flyer membership card holders

* Hong Kong (SAR) tourists (will not be a large increase, due to the bad economics at current stage in Hong Kong [SAR])

Anyway, many thanks for some supporters from the Civil Aviation Resource Net of China @ http://www.carnoc.com.


User currently offlineCarnoc From China, joined Oct 2001, 875 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (12 years 4 months 4 hours ago) and read 1849 times:

On several Chinese and English newspapers, they reported that some China and Hong Kong (SAR)'s civil aviation professors have concerns for mainland China to allow Cathay Pacific Airways launches flights to mainland China if it happens in the near future.

The main concern is that they know most Cathay Pacific Airways' shares are currently not holding by Chinese companies or Hong Kong companies, they are belonging to British, so they partly believe that Cathay Pacific Airways is belonging to the category of foreign airlines, although it is a carrier based in Hong Kong (SAR). They afraid that if the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) allows Cathay Pacific Airways to start flights to mainland China, other foreign airlines will be probably to apply opening new routes and CAAC will not be easy to refuse them, because other foreign carriers could say that Cathay Pacific Airways is also mainly owned by forieign company.


User currently offlineCarnoc From China, joined Oct 2001, 875 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (12 years 4 months 4 hours ago) and read 1834 times:

Recently, some CAAC officers indirectly indicated that some Chinese airlines who serve flights to Hong Kong (SAR) have brought the issue of competition between them and Cathay Pacific Airways to the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) if Cathay Pacific Airways has got right to fly to mainland China.

So, although CAAC has generally no opposition opinion to allow Cathay Pacific Airways launches flights to mainland China, but CAAC will seriously consider about all issues can be occurred in the future.


User currently offlineCarnoc From China, joined Oct 2001, 875 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (12 years 4 months 2 hours ago) and read 1809 times:

Today, there was also one news report from a Hong Kong media organization said that it seems Cathay Pacific Airways is highly unlikely to be permitted to fly into Beijing, the reason for that is because the concerns of competition between China's national flag carrier -- Air China and Cathay Pacific Airways.

User currently offlineCXCPA From Hong Kong, joined May 2000, 387 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (12 years 4 months 2 hours ago) and read 1808 times:

Carnoc,
Please ignore those 'aviation expert'! They hate Swire Group or somebody paid for them! Indeed, Cathay Pacific is registered in Hong Kong. So it is a Hong Kong airline. And Hong Kong is a part of China, so it is also a Chinese airline. Cathay Pacific is not a foreign airline! If Cathay Pacific is a foreign airline, then how about Virgin Blue! Virgin Blue is registered in Australia and operate Australian domestic flights and owned by a British company-Virgin Group. If you think about the case of Virgin Blue, then you will know how the idea of those 'aviation expert' is unreasonable. IN fact, before the establishment of Dragonair, Cathay Pacific operates flight between Hong Kong and China. At that time, CAAC accepted this. So CAAC cannot reject Cathay Pacific's application. All airlines including those in mainland China should face some competition or we just have horrible service. The mainland airlines should not complain about the acceptable competition.....


User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 779 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (12 years 4 months 2 hours ago) and read 1802 times:

Major Cathay Shareholders:

Swire Pacific - 44%. A HK company
CITIC Pacific - 25% . A HK company
Lee family - 5%. A HK family

Major Dragonair shareholders
CNAC (HK) 43% - HK company
CITIC Pacific 27% - HK company
Cathay Pacific 17% - HK company
Swire Pacific 7% - HK company
Chao family 2% - HK family

The professors are wrong.

I agree, the CAAC carriers will not welcome competing against KA and CX. Who would?


User currently offlineJesseycy From New Zealand, joined Aug 2001, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (12 years 4 months 1 hour ago) and read 1793 times:

Maybe they can just do the same thing like SQ did with its LHR-Australia flights quite a few years back. Just have CX999 from LHR to Hong Kong, and CX999A from Hong Kong to Shanghai/Beijing. Technically, two diffrent flights, but practically, a direct flight with a short stop in Hong Kong. Imagine all the added passengers they'll get!

As for Air China, maybe they won't worry so much if CX does not have high frequency flights into China. Just a few, so that it can feed its passengers from its international routes into China... Maybe 4/5 every day?


User currently offlineN949WP From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2000, 1437 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (12 years 4 months 1 hour ago) and read 1793 times:

The CAAC carriers are already competing against KA on quite a few routes, including the cash-cow SHA and PEK routes. From my business travel experience, KA's flights are invariably the first to sell-out. As nice as KA is, they are still no match for CX in terms of the basic product. So, imagine the shockwaves to the mainland's airline industry should CX introduce their brand of service to the market!!

'949


User currently offlineCarnoc From China, joined Oct 2001, 875 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1772 times:

Many thanks for all you guys replies, I agree that Cathay Pacific Airways is a truly Hong Kong carrier and it should not be an issue, but I have no idea why all those civil aviation experts said such silly thing.

Also, I will keep further updates for all Airliners.net users and see you guys later!


User currently offlineOxygen From Hong Kong, joined Sep 1999, 674 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1738 times:

CX is indeed a Hong Kong registered company, and the major shareholders are also Hong Kong registered companies. But although these companies are all registered in Hong Kong, a very large proportion of the owners of them are British. Therefore CX is literally HK, but in fact it is the British who controls it.

And of course CX knows that. In the early 1990s Cathay suddenly realized that it wouldn't do good if the public thinks that the airline is British, resulting in the disappearance of those 'union jacks' on the tails of the aircraft (All cx aircraft have a small British flag on their tail before the early 90's); furthermore there came all those advertising campaigns that emphasizes "Hong Kong is our home", "Hong Kong's airline", "The Spirit of Hong Kong" "Same team same dream", 'we have our root in Hong Kong' etc....... In reality these are only cover ups to make the Hong Kong public believe that CX is really THEIR airline.

Regarding the application for Mainland routes, it is NOT true that the 'nationality' of CX is not an issue. You have to remember that doing Business in China is not about rules and regulations, but rather politics and relations. Being registered in Hong Kong does not mask that fact that the airline is mainly owned by British People.

I am not saying that China won't accept the application, all I am saying is that you cannot disregard the influence of politics in this incident.


User currently offlineAir Taiwan From Australia, joined Dec 1999, 1518 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1736 times:

VirginBlue WAS considered to be a foreign airline when it first started in mid 2000 in Australia. Australia is one of the very few (actually the only other one I know is New Zealand) countries in the world that allows a 100% foreign company to set up an domestic airline in its home turf. However a few months ago a company in Australia bought 51% of VirginBlue, making it now majority owned by Aussies.

This should clear up some confusions.

Jimmy


User currently offlineCXCPA From Hong Kong, joined May 2000, 387 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1710 times:

More info:
CITIC Pacific and CNAC(HK) are companies indirectly owned by Chinese government. CITIC Pacific cannot control the both airlines.


User currently offlineRed Panda From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2000, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1696 times:

Sometimes it does not matter what it is called, but it does matter what the substance of the subject matter is. You may think Swire Pacific is an HK company, but as long as I see the word Swire, it makes me think of British-owned subsidaries.
The Swire logo is still on all CX's acfts, but they are just painted in grey to make it less visible to the public.

If CX is really a Chinese Airline, then why there is no China flag, or at least HKSAR flag, on the fuslage?

r panda


User currently offlineJesseycy From New Zealand, joined Aug 2001, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1674 times:

Red Panda, you might have answered your own question! Maybe they don't know which flag to put! HKSAR, because it negotiates its own Air Services Agreements? But then again, wouldn't that make HK "superior" to China? That will upset the Chinese government.........

CX IS a Hong Kong Company, but politics is a complex field...... Add to that a "One country, two systems", where in fact HK is "practically" bowing to the pressures from the mainland governemnt, it makes a application ike this really complicated.....


User currently offlineRed Panda From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2000, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1637 times:

True, HKSAR negotiation her own traffic rights. I have to agree that it is very complicated. It may be politically correct to say CX is an HK company since it is not British, and it is not (yet) Chinese.

r panda


User currently offlineCXCPA From Hong Kong, joined May 2000, 387 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (12 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1605 times:

Red Panda,
China Airlines, Eva Air are Taiwanese airlines, but they do not put Taiwan flag on theif aircraft.
China Southern, China Eastern, etc are Chinese carrier, but still no China flag.
So the HK carrier is not neccesary to carry any flag.


User currently offlineAir Taiwan From Australia, joined Dec 1999, 1518 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (12 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1571 times:

China Airlines and EVA Air didn't put the ROC flag on their aircrafts because it gives them more flexibility when negotiating traffic rights with foreign countries.

The reason MU and other non-flag-carrying airlines didn't have a flag painted on them is becauase the Communist Chinese government thinks Air China is the Flag Carrier so there for CA is the only Chinese airline allowed to paint the flag on their aircrafts.

Also because of the same reason Air China is the only airline in China that are allowed to buy Boeing 747-400 passenger aircrafts...

Jimmy


25 Carnoc : Ongoing News Update: 14 August 2002 According to a Hong Kong published Chinese newspaper, it says that Cathay Pacific Airways confirmed that it has su
26 Cx flyboy : Apparently, Cathay could well be interested in Hanzhou, Ningbo and Nanjing.
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