Japanguy From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 81 posts, RR: 1 Posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2599 times:
When did this happen? I guess I never researched it in depth before, but assumed that either UA or AA was the largest US carrier across the pond. I came across this in the marketing babble on the bottom of a press release the other day. What exactly is the largest run for DL across?
MEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4414 posts, RR: 34
Reply 1, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2574 times:
It happened in 1991 already when Delta took over the still big transatlantic network of Pan Am from JFK. Later on they kept expanding from Atlanta. Delta flies to almost all medium and big sized European cities you can think of; Moscow, Athens, Venice, Barcelona, Manchester, Dublin, Munich, you name it. And it has an effective alliance with Air France. United and American always had a smaller presence in Europe and only fly to a handfull of cities. But don't forget Delta is smaller than United and American in the Transpacific and Latin flights.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
Japanguy From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 81 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2462 times:
Didn't some of those Pan-Am routes go to United? I thought that is how UA got access to LHR (and AA bought the rights from TWA). I might be mistaken, I have read a gazillion posts about this on a.net and I guess they haven't all sunk in.
I know that UA flies to most of the airports mentioned above. However, with United having something like 10 dailies from New York to London, I don't understand how Delta is bigger.....
SegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2407 times:
in 1999 till up to 1st quarter 2002, United was the largest carrier across the Atlantic, in terms of passenger seats filled (revenue passenger miles).... Delta does have the most flights, but most are w/ 767-300s and -200s.... United's gains were made because of the 747-400 flights across the pond.
Anyway, Delta did retake the lead in both flights and passenger counts this year...
Tango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3810 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2272 times:
While Delta does use 767-300ERs on many of its trans-Atlantic routes, they also make extensive use of 777s and MD-11s on these services. Not only do they serve more points in Europe non-stop from the U.S. than AA and UA, they also have major U.S.-Europe hubs at both JFK and ATL as well as non-stops from CVG to several cities across the pond.
Clipper471 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2234 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW DATABASE EDITOR
Nightcruiser, actually it's more like this...
22 April 1985 - Pan Am Chairman C. Edward Acker sells Pan Am's lucrative Pacific division, excluding Hawaii, to United Airlines for $750 million. The sale includes Pan Am's six leased L-1011 aircraft (delivered Feb 1986), eleven Boeing 747SP aircraft (seven leased; delivered Mar-Nov 1986), one leased DC-10 aircraft, 1,200 flight attendants, 410 pilots, about 100 managers and 1,000 non-U.S. employees in the Pacific. United would acquire routes from the U.S. to Asia and Australia. It would have authorization to fly nonstop from New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Honolulu to Tokyo, where Pan Am had developed a hub, and Hong Kong, cities in China, Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, Thailand and the Philippines, Australia and New Zealand.
23 October 1990 - Pan Am announces it will sell its flagship routes between the U.S. and London (Heathrow) to United Airlines and two jumbo jets for about $400 million. The routes are London (Heathrow) to Los Angeles, New York, San Francisco, Seattle, and Washington, DC; London to continental European cities including Amsterdam, Berlin, Brussels, Hamburg, Helsinki, Munich and Oslo. Pan Am will keep routes between London and Detroit and Miami. United also will aquire Pan Am's route between Washington (Dulles) and Paris as part of the deal as well as pay up to $100 million worth of Pan Am tickets should Pan Am stop flying. The acquisition included two Boeing 747-200 widebody aircraft built for long-range flight. A marketing agreement brings United's MileagePlus frequent-flyer program together with WorldPass. Pan Am was currently the leading trans-Atlantic carrier with 14.1% of the market. TWA had 11.8%, British Airways PLC had 11.1%, Lufthansa had 6.8%, American Airlines Inc. had 5.5%, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines had 5.2%, Air France had 3.6% and Delta Air Lines Inc. had 3.5%.
12 August 1991 - In a $1.39 billion deal, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Cornelius Blackshear approves Delta Air Lines purchase of Pan Am Shuttle, its hub in Frankfurt,Germany its trans-Atlantic routes, jobs to about 6,600 of Pan Am's 17,300 employees, and forty-five of its aircraft, while making provisions for an independent, Miami-basedPan Am with fifty-one to fifty-four aircraft serving Latin America. A total of 6,900 of its employees would retain their jobs. Delta will invest $405 million of the sale amount in the reorganized Pan Am, amounting to a 45% ownership stake (the other 55% by creditors). Pan Am is set to emerge from bankruptcy protection on December 3.
04 December 1991 - Pan Am shuts down.
09 December 1991 - In bankruptcy court, United Airlines wins Pan Am's Miami hub and its Latin American routes for $135 million. It includes 1,000 jobs to former Pan Am workers.
777gk From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1641 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2166 times:
Hard to believe NW is carrying more pax across the Atlantic than we are. Do those numbers include codeshared KLM service, or is it simply because we operate smaller aircraft on less frequencies. As far as destinations served, we are the biggest out of NYC and second overall to Delta.
I think that data on NW should be double-checked. I'm not sure if it is accurate.
Arsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2151 times:
I believe DL has the most European destinations out of the US carriers, only behind CO. While UA has a massive presence at LHR, it only flies to a handful of euro destinations, while DL flies to most of the major routes in europe. I don't think NW is anywhere close to UA,AA or DL, NW has a rather limited european presence.
Ual777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2110 times:
not to try and switch the pond here but going into asia who carries more?NW? or UA?
did someone say that AA carried more into asia?
all this european routes and flights got me thinking and i figured it was NW right?
Planefreak From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2059 times:
I work on the international concourse in ATL for DL. Let me tell you first hand that it is something to see to believe! I still amazes me at the number of paxs enplaned at the Worldport daily and on the E con itself!
SegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2025 times:
I too get Air Transport World... I have seen the numbers. I might add I've received ATW for the past 3 years, and for free, considering my job. I used to get Aviation Daily, PlaneBusiness Banter, and other publications. United was in fact #1 year over year over Delta for 2 years in a row, until 1st quarter this year. United's lead was always by about 1 or 2% over DL's RPMs.
Anyway, facts are boring and don't belong on airliners.net. most people make up whatever they want to believe anyhow.
: Some African routes went to United. Pan Am's South Africa rights from Miami were part of the Latin American network and went to United, which still ha
26 NWA Man
: 777gk- I was thinking the same thing, especially with all the CO flights from Newark to Europe. The numbers must include tickets sold by NW for KL-ope
: You are totally right about UA's Europe RPMs. I've been trying to explain that to people, they just don't understand. People can't accept facts here.
: 777gk, The Northwest numbers do not include KLM. FYI, the numbers for all of 2001 were. Northwest Passengers 2,721,000 RPK-------17,933.965,000 Contin
: I wonder if those numbers include Tel Aviv, if not I think adding it would put CO past NWA. SInce this list is "carriers across the Atlantic" not carr
: STT757, The numbers include all flights from the US across the Atlantic ie: France,Turkey,India,Israel,Africa etc. Northwest is larger across the Atla
: [more on African route rights] Not sure why this fascinates me so much...but does anyone have a list of all of the ex Pan Am African route rights, and
: africa isn't profitable for US airlines due to unions Maybe southwest will go there, once Boeing has made the 737-1000ERX with 240 min ETOPS :P As of
: Also, it seems like some people think UA did surpass UA in passenger enplanements. That's not accurate. DL did enplane more passengers than UA during
: patrick, we're not arguing who has more destinations, I think we're "bickering" over how to rate the "busiest" airline over the Atlantic, which even y