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First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows  
User currently offlineGr8SlvrFlt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1598 posts, RR: 10
Posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7192 times:

It really does give a totally different, and better, look!

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Photo © Michael Carter



44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSeiple From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7151 times:

Please also see lengthy discussions on this from two days ago:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/894235/


User currently offlineTransSwede From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 997 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7131 times:

What were those windows for in the first place? They always struck me as useless.

And when will Boeing remove them from the 737's?


User currently offlineGr8SlvrFlt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1598 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7125 times:

Please also see lengthy discussions on this from two days ago:

So very sorry. I did a search for Boeing 717 and the above referenced link did not come up because Boeing was not in the title, I guess. I apologize for wasting anyone's time.


User currently offlineSeiple From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7114 times:

Didn't waste anybody's time... just pointing out another reference that may answer anybody's additional questions.

I searched for "717 eyebrow" and came up with that thread. Airliners.net's search interface is problematic at best most of the time.


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7035 times:

With the eyebrow windows removed, you also decrease MX costs as well. You don't have to worry about having to keep the parts for those windows, and less parts means less overhead. Those windows also do affect aerodynamics to an extent as well. They are a flat piece in an area that is curved, and those cause some drag because the airflow is disrupted because of the break in the curve.

User currently offlineDelta777-XXX From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1017 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6990 times:

Are you sure those windows are flat? I would think that they are curved just like the other cockpit windows.

Hank


User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6977 times:

When does the first 73NG without eyebrow windows roll out?

User currently offlineL'Espace180 From France, joined Sep 2000, 938 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6900 times:

TransSwede : those windows were meant, in the earlier aviation times, to navigate using the stars, which is now useless with the new technologies (GPS and such).

User currently offlineClipperhawaii From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2033 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6891 times:

those windows were meant, in the earlier aviation times, to navigate using the stars

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I don't think so.



"You Can't Beat The Experience"
User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3007 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6881 times:

Yes, Clipperhawaii, that's what they were used for.

Do you have some alternate theory to advance here?



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineClipperhawaii From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2033 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6885 times:

Yeah, they were placed there for air traffic avoidance. So I was told by a Douglas test pilot. Why would a DC-9 need to navigate by stars on such short segments?

CH



"You Can't Beat The Experience"
User currently offlineGregg From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 327 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6795 times:

I thought they were used to see the "stop bar" that used to be on gates.

User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2366 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6764 times:

Yes, Clipperhawaii, that's what they were used for.
Do you have some alternate theory to advance here?


YES. They were meant to stay visual with the runway when turning final. When at an angle to the runway, when banking, the runway would disappear out the side window due to the banking of the aircraft. These eyebrow windows made sure that the pilot [at least one of them...] would would stay visual in the banking turn.

PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6742 times:

If that is true PW100, why are they geting rid of them?

I don't know the answer myself. . .but. . .

those windows were meant, in the earlier aviation times, to navigate using the stars

In a modern jet?!

 Laugh out loud I haven't laughed that hard in awhile!  Laugh out loud

No disrespect to anyone. . .DIA




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User currently offlineSunilgupta From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 775 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6731 times:

Another reason the aircraft without the brow windows looks odd is that the the window frames are painted the same color as the fuselage. On most DC-9, MD-8x and 717's they are left natural metal. Anyone know why the frame is painted?

Sunil



User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6727 times:

I guess this CV880 didn't need to see the stars!

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Photo © Don Boyd



or this SUD Caravelle!

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Photo © Kjell nilsson



Poor guys, should have gotten the sunroof option.  Wink/being sarcastic

LOL. . .DIA



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User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6663 times:

What. . .nobody knows for sure?

Any tech's out there?



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User currently offlineL'Espace180 From France, joined Sep 2000, 938 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6612 times:

The stars were used in extreme cases of course...and if it's still on a modern jet, it's because that "modern" jet comes from an "old" jet.

User currently offlineFanoftristars From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1604 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6600 times:

I believe PW1000 is right. I asked a DL Captain of a 737-300 why they needed the upper windows and he said it was to still be able to see the runway when turning on final and also for spotting other aircraft etc. Maybe in the 737 the main windows are positioned in a matter that would block their view normally.

I think anything that would help a pilot when flying couldn't be too bad of an idea...  Smile What if the navigation system goes out and they neet to get out thier sextant???  Smile



"FLY DELTA JETS"
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6591 times:

L'Espace180:

Reference my post above with the "old jets." If the stars were used in extreme cases, then these "old jets" and the new 717 with no eyebrow windows are out of luck.

FO: "Guess we're lost Cap'n, and we don't have any eyebrow windows, so we gotta ditch!"

Captain: "Dammit! I knew this airline should have gotten some DC-9s so we could have seen the stars!"

FO: "Damn this Caravelle!"


DIA  Big grin



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User currently offlineJj From Algeria, joined Jun 2001, 1227 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6591 times:

I thought they were for the navigators/flight engineers to see outside the aircraft when their vission was obstructed by the pilots...

User currently offlineJustplanesmart From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 718 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6594 times:

Remember that the cockpit window arrangement on the 717 came from the DC-8 originally, and that of the 737 was straight from the 707. When both of those first-generation jets were introduced, navigators were still a regular part of the cockpit crew, especially for overseas flights. I doubt that the either the DC-9 or the 737 have ever carried a navigator, but the windows stayed until now.


"So many planes; so little time..."
User currently offlineTT737FO From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 472 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6576 times:

Regardless of the origin, the eyebrows increase the visibility.

An ALPA review of the 717 that I read a few years back was extremely positive. Their chief complaint was sticking with the vintage DC-9 windows--which are pretty narrow.

Thus, I am surprised that the eyebrows have been eliminated alltogether.


User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 24, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6577 times:

"Aaaaahhhhh!!! We can't navigate by the stars either!"


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Photo © John F. Ciesla






Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
25 DIA : snoozing. . .We are still looking for the original proven reason for these extra windows.
26 Timz : Hey guys, I can't figure it out-- were you serious about the astronavigation?
27 BWIrwy4 : Yes, they were serious. On transoceanic flights, the only way to know your position until about 1970 was to have a sextant and use celestial navigatio
28 Post contains images AA717driver : It's because without the eyebrow windows the cockpit would take longer to reach the 100+ degree temperatures. And, that's two less windows to generate
29 L-188 : The window are so that you can see into a turn. Such as turning final. Those windows would be useless for taking a star shot. You need a dome to to th
30 Solnabo : Personally I find 717 a ugly looking a/c...... was popular 35 years ago. Booooring design, Boeing!!!!!
31 Lapper : Solnabo: Actually you need to blame the designers at McDonald Douglas for the design of the B717, as it was originally to be one of their planes, but
32 Post contains images Cxcx330 : Looks like Fokker 100
33 Skystar : I was told that those windows were added so that Douglas and Boeing could actually meet window size/area requirements - which no longer are required.
34 DIA : AA717driver: Thanks for your straight answer. You are a pilot, in the series with and now w/o windows no less, I'll trust you to know the correct answ
35 Post contains links Lortab 7.5mg : An ALPA review of the 717 that I read a few years back was extremely positive. Their chief complaint was sticking with the vintage DC-9 windows--which
36 Post contains images BR715-A1-30 : I wonder what AirTran had to say about the situation? I wish they never would have gotten rid of those windows. Now it is going to make AirTran's flee
37 Timz : I've long wondered just how much astronavigation was used on airliners in, say, 1955, or in 1965. I assume very few 707/DC-8s ever used it regularly--
38 QANTASforever : I know that on the old 707s QF used, the navigator used a sextant to navigate using the stars at night (obveously before satnav). Both my father (who
39 Sllevin : Celestial Navigation was done from a small dome in the top of the fuselage (optional). While it was common to see the dome on propliners, by the time
40 Skystar : Visibility seems plausible, but why would they need to remove the feature now (apart from cost cutting) - surely there's no less a need for visibility
41 Timz : ...just how airliners got around before INS. Back in the 50s an article about Qantas' Constellation to South Africa said they had to fly the Cocos-Mau
42 Iflewrepublic : It's odd to say this, but.... that old Douglas nose looks...very...um...very....BOEING. Iflewrepublic
43 F111 : The Shorts 360 has eyebrow windows and they are there for visibility.
44 FBU 4EVER! : The eyebrow windows have always been there for one purpose:Visibility.Both for circling approaches and visuals. As most airports nowadays are equipped
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