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Is It Time For The 757NG And 767NG?  
User currently offlineJet Setter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (14 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

The way things are looking for Boeing at the moment, it appears they are having problems with marketing the 757, both the -200 and -300 versions.

Tough competition in the marketplace with it's A321 has been hurting Boeing's sales and even it's own 737-900 may take business from airlines which may have bought more 757s.

With the 777, 767-400 and 737NG having a very similar flight deck is it not time for Boeing to introcuce this onto the 757 and 767-300 range. It would provoide better commonality for the future and the flightdeck would stll be compatible with the old one if airlines wanted that. This would be achieved in the same way as was done to make the 737NG compatible with the "classics," by making the CRT displays capable of displaying the older instruments.

In the cabin the 757-300/737NG interior could be applied to the 757-200 (This may already have been done - it's not clear from boeing.com) More urgently, the 767-300 should get the 777 stlye cabin of the -400, which is considerably more passenger friendly. The 767 cabin design has dated badly, while that of the 757 is still contemporary and modern.

While the 757 may be a very efficient airliner, iprovements could be made here. A couple of years back Rolls Royce proposed an updated RB211 engine for the 757, featuring many Trent components taken from the engine for the new A340-500/600. This would make the 757 quieter, more efficent and improve maintainability and reliability. I'm sure P&W would come up with a similar update to the PW2040.

I'd don't really think the 757NG would need any "metal" changes. The wings and tail are well suited to the 757's task, unlike those on the 737"classic" which wouldn't allow it to fly at higher levels and resticted it's speed and efficiency. However, maybe we could see raked wingtips a la 767-400 to improve long range economy and stretch the 757's endurance.

Boeing could possibly also add extra fuel tanks as is being considered for the 757-200ERX, to stretch it's range a bit further, I'm sure airlines like TWA and Continental would appreciate this.

These changes would help improve the commonality of the Boeing family, increasing the "family feel" of the 737NG, 757NG, 767NG and 777. Boeing has to make up lost ground to Airbus here, they have lead the way recently on Boeing's idea that started with the 757/767 20 years ago!

With regard to Fly-by-Wire, which some have said the 757/767 lack, I don't think they're needed. These aircraft are both exceptionally safe and effivient, there is little to be gained but the cost would be huge.

This brings me to my final point, this would ba a fairly low cost upgrade for Boeing. All the developements I have mentioned are already on other aircraft in the Boeing lineup, so it's saving on the cost of developing from new. Remember, the 727 only had around a 20 year production span, I wouldn't like to see the 757 go out in the same length of time. However, the orders aren't there and Boeing appears to be burying it's head in the sand.

So lets see if you agree/disagree.
Are there any other improvements you can think of?

(I know I've concentrated on the 757 here, but I don't know nearly as much about the 767 and that alrady has a quasi-NG version in the 767-400)

Regards
James

7 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJtb106 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (14 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2482 times:

Very good points, I believe. There are probably a thousand reasons not to do it, but does anyone think they might want to re-market the never built 757-100 to give them a larger family to compete with Airbus? It would compete with their own 737-800 and -900 maybe, but for airlines that don't fly the 737 but do fly the 757 and 767, they could offer a product with the same cockpit. At least put the pressure on the A321 program and lower the 321 price tag/profit by exploring it.

User currently offlineJet Setter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (14 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2473 times:

I think the difficulty with your suggestion would probably come down to money.

One of the problems marketing the 757-200 as opposed to the A321/737-900 is it's purchase price. It's significantly more expensive, mainy because it's a different class of airliner. The former 2 are streches of small aircraft with price tags to match. The 757-200 is a medium sized airliner, it has far greater capabilities than either of these 2 aircraft and it's price tag reflects that, however, airlines appear unwilling to pay for it and are prepared to take a less capable airliner that "can just about do it" for a much sweeter price. If you shrink the 757-200 down to A321 size it would have an even harder time competing for sales. I also believe (open to correction on this) that the A321 would easily have significantly lower seat-mile costs than a 757-100.

However, that's the reason why I don't think it will be built, I'm definately not saying I don't want Boeing to build it. It would, as you said, be a great move for airlines not flying the 737/A320 who wanted a slightly smaller aircraft. Also, think of the range it would have. If the 757-200 can fly around 3000-4000 miles non-stop depending on weather and loads, think of how far a 757-100 could go. This is where it would really be awesome, on very long, very thin Atlantic routes. It could open up many new point-to-point markets. Manchester-Seattle, Glasgow-Houston etc (I know, It's not going to happen)

Good Idea none-the-less (is that all one word?)

Long live the 757!
James 


User currently offlineDeltaAir From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1094 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (14 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2456 times:

In the next few years I can see the need to begin replacing aging 757-200s, but only with minor differences. The most important will be that of making the cockpit near the same of the 767-400.

User currently offlineNKP S2 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1714 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (14 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2456 times:

No,not really. The 757/767 are already "NG" type A/C as it is,and their flight controls are damn near trouble free. BTW,their spoilers are FBW. There is really nothing "old" about them,and I can't see a redesign for non-tangible bragging rights. "If it aint broke...don't fix it".

User currently offlineJet Setter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (14 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2442 times:

NKP S2,
I'd agree with you, It aint broke, the 757/767 are some of the most reliable and efficient planes around. I see from your profile that the airline (I assume) you work for will be keeping it's 757s for some time yet.

However, the 757s orderbook is very poor at the moment. The backlog is around 100 and the net orders recieved by the 757-200 in 1999 was an abysmal 20! The 757-300 netted even fewer orders.

This situation can't continue for very long because at this rate all orders will be fulfilled within 2-3 years assuming a rate of 3-4 aircraft per month.

The 757/767's flightdecks and engines don't provide the latest technology the airlines want. Remember that if an aircraft flies for 30 years, if the technology in it is 20 years old when new, on retirement it will be 50 years old!

Plus, as I've said before, none of these improvements to the aircraft are major changes to the basic plane, and wouldn't require a huge amount of investment by Boeing or the engine makers - in each case it's slightly modifying something already in existance.

I'd say the plane aint broke, but the orderbook sure is! Something needs doing to boost orders, and I don't think Boeing's going to have a "buy 1 get one free" special offer on 757s this week     

Regards
James


User currently offlineNKP S2 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1714 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (14 years 6 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 2415 times:

I'm not sure just what you mean about the 757/767 flight decks. Surely you're not implying they're obsolete. All "glass" using EICAS,save for a few instrument used for emergency standby use.

User currently offlineJet Setter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (14 years 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2403 times:

Hello again!

I'll just explain what I meant about the 767/757 flighdeck. Of course it's not obsolete! However, neither does it represent the latest technology like the 737NG/744/764/777 or A320/330/340.

The 757/767 flightdeck definately aint all EICAS, airspeed, altitude and rate of climb are displayed on electro-mechanical instruments only. The CRTs are primarily for Horizon, Naviagtion and Engine instrument displays. The 757/763 flight deck is first generation "glass cockpit" technology like the AB6/310, all four are struggling for orders.

If the flighdeck is 20 years old now - there are 2 options. Update it to the latest technology and extend the life of the 757/767 programme or leave it as it is. In another 20 years the flight deck will be obsolete!!!!

Have a nice day!
James 


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