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Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?  
User currently offlineMhsieh From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 332 posts, RR: 0
Posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 3130 times:

Read about Boeing taking back SIA's A340 as "trade-in" for purchasing 777...Of course this upset Airbus so they threatened not to provide any maintenance support to any airline that buys these A340s.
1. What did Boeing do with these A340??
2. Is it good PR or legal for a manufacturer to refuse to provide support for a plane it built?
Thanks

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineA340-Fan From Germany, joined Apr 2002, 252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 3115 times:

to 1.) Boeing sold some to Khalifa and Air Switzerland. I also read that LH is interested in them.

to 2.) I think that Airbus don' t do that, because they annoy the airlines.

A340-Fan


User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 3094 times:

1) As above they have been sold to Khalifa Airways, Air Switzerland and another airline.

2) Airbus did do that - it was a bad PR move. They are now supporting the aircraft.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineBabaero From Philippines, joined Jan 2002, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3032 times:

B-HXM,HXN and HXO of Cathay Pacific were bought from Boeing. these were ex SQ aircraft also.

User currently offlineBobcat From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3036 times:

Boeing made the same offer to China Airlines.

To sell the 777s, Boeing will let CI "trade-in"
their existing A340 fleet, as long as CI does not
buy the A330s.



User currently offline9V-SVA From Singapore, joined Aug 2001, 1860 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2988 times:

Boeing takes A340 in and sells them to third-party airlines while it gets a Boeing 777 sale. Simple.

9V-SVA



9V-SVA | B772ER
User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2485 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2959 times:

It's just like a car sale deal. Trade in your VolksWagon [340] and buy a brand new Ford [777] with all sort of complimentary extra's:
including delayed payment [TAKE IT NOW AND PAY IN TWO YEARS!!];
including free leather seats;
including free on-board entertainment system;
including customized external trimming and colour of yoir choice;
including training and familiarization [sp?!?],
including 50.000 miles of free maintenance [which isn't that hard to guarantee on a 777...];
including........

PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21467 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2959 times:

Singapore_Air: 2) Airbus did do that - it was a bad PR move. They are now supporting the aircraft.

As far as I know, they originally announced that they might not support these aircraft when re-sold by Boeing.

I think it´s not difficult to understand that Airbus reacted with a certain amount of saber-rattling to Boeing´s aggressive sales tactics. And I doubt that the airlines have too many illusions about how serious both competitors are taking business...  Wink/being sarcastic


User currently offlineCelestar From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

I don't know if Boeing is deperate or what, they made the same offer to China Airlines and local paper said that Boeing is going to requote to China Airlines next week to try to get this business from CI.

CI made a consciencious move (I think a wise one) years before to replace MD11 with A340. They now want to move ahead with fleet modenization to replace their aging A300-600R and the natural and correct business decision will be A330. Boeing came to this round and get into contact with Taiwan government to sway CI decision. Part of the deal was to take back the A340 which CI pilots had becoming accustom to.

It is a pity that when CI crashes a plane, people in Taiwan point out CI is under too much politics from government so they were never accountable. Now CI wants to make decision, the government intervened. I pity CI situation.

Whether B777-ER or A330 or A340 is a good decision or not, let CI decide.
Frankly speaking, if you look at the route that CI will be flying, ETOP will be a concern and having sit on both Boeing and Airbus planes, I think A340 is the right decision.


User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5085 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2738 times:

Boeing needs to be more aggressive in winning orders if taking in an Airbus aircraft will seal the deal then Boeing should do it.


Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2669 times:


JAL,

What should be the target of this "aggression"? I don't think CI will be more likely to buy from Boeing if Boeing employees would, say, blow up airplanes or CI's offices.



User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2744 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2550 times:

Mhsieh,

As already mentioned, Boeing has sold 3 to Cathay Pacific, 3 to Khalifa, and an undetermined amount to Air Switzerland. In addition, they offered them to Lufthansa during the recent bids for a medium-haul fleet. However, Lufthansa not only chose the A330-300, they even converted their remaining orders/options they had on the A340-300 (4 + 6) with Airbus to do so. I think its safe to say LH will not be getting any A340-300's in the foreseeable future.

Immediately after the deal was announced, Airbus decried the tactic and threatened to withhold support for the aircraft. Of course, this did not go over very well, especially when the first airline to buy some of the ex-SQ birds was Cathay, a pre-existing A330/340 operator.

Interestingly, according to everything I've read, Airbus has offered to buy-back easyJet's 737 fleet (including their new -700's) if they decide for the A319. The shoe is now on the other foot. . .


Celestar,

I've been in contact with a few sources close to CI, and it has also been reported on the Orders forum, so believe me when I say that you actually have it backwards - CI asked Boeing to buy-back the A340's, not vice versa. Also, according to one of my sources, any A330 deal would also include an A340 buy-back. In other words, the A343 is done at CI. That is actually why Boeing's original bid was so much higher than Airbus's. While the price of the 777/A330s were relatively on par, Boeing was only offering @ $35 million for the used A340s, while Airbus was offering close to $85 million. Apparently, Boeing has now come back and offered a lot more than their initial $35 million offering in order to capture the deal. However, CI has now postponed a decision, and will combine their A300 replacement with their scheduled long-haul renewal next year.

Could this give the A343 another chance? I would doubt it. The way I see it CI will either go: 1) Boeing with the 772, 772ER, 773, and either 773ERs or 744ERs 2) Airbus with the A332, A333, and A346. I don't see CI operating the A380 for a number of years, but I could be mistaken.

Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3013 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2502 times:

All this brings up an interesting question....

Does Boeing actually make money reselling planes from other manufacturers?

I mean, a Ford dealer will still try to make a profit if he's selling a Chevrolet off his lot. Or a Honda or a Volkswagen for that matter.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2744 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2466 times:

Brons2,

I'm sure Boeing intended to make some type of profit through the deal. Either directly from the resale of the A340's, or through the profit-margin on the sale of 777's to SQ. However, with the depressed market, especially for A340's, there can be be no question that Boeing is losing money on the resales.

Also remember that the agreement to buy-back SQ's A340's was a provision of the original 1995 SQ order for 777's. So this is not as new or surprising as it was made out when that provision was exercised in 1999. I think if Boeing knew the market for A340's would be so bad today, they might have thought twice about agreeing to the deal. Then again, in the end, the chance to 54 and counting 777's to SQ would have been too good to pass up.

Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineCelestar From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2309 times:

Dear Hamlet69,

I was surprised to hear that you stated my original thinking was wrong. Local newspaper was never professional enough so I have to rely on advise and opinion. What makes me difficult to understand is why is A340-300 going to be phase-out with CI? I just don't get it. With B777ER or A332, CI will be left with 2 engines planes flying over some of the Pacific route where ETOP will always be an issue. Also, I recalled correctly that when CI decided on A343, it was cleary stated that with 4 engines, CI can fly these plane in shorter and more direct distance, eg Taipei to JFK.

Can you help me to understand more?


User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2744 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2206 times:

Celestar,

ETOPS is not nearly as big an issue as most people tend to believe. Given Taipei's location, CI would only need the standard 180-min. ETOPS to fly their Trans-Pacific routes. Now, obviously CI has not had the best safety record during the past decade (that's an understatement, isn't it?  Wink/being sarcastic ). However, they are an experienced twin-engine operator, having flown the A300 since the early '80's. This is actually more important than their safety record. Obviously, they will have to demostrate that their maintanence procedures and facilities meet the stringent ETOPS standards. Usually, to gain an ETOPS rating, an airline has to have experience operating and maintaining twin-engine aircraft for a least 1 to 2 years. CI already has this qualification.

What is more important than ETOPS is aircraft performance. Airbus promised that the A340-300 could fly non-stop TPE-JFK, both directions, even during the dead of winter. However, this turned out to be false. Now, during the winter, the A343 either has to fly payload restricted, or make a service stop in ANC when flying west-bound. In addition, the 772ER can carry a larger payload than the A343, which equals greater revenue. As far as the issue that the A340 could fly a shorter route, this is true - as long as the carrier does not have an 180 ETOPS rating. If CI qualifies for 180 ETOPS, then the 777 can fly the exact same route the A340 can.

BTW - I seriously doubt CI will ever send a possible A332 fleet Trans-Pacific. Should CI chose the aircraft, I garauntee they would be for Australiasia and Europe flights.

Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineLortab 7.5mg From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 805 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2103 times:

Off topic, but somewhat related:

Boeing unit reaches for profits of finance world

'Big-ticket transactions' are stock in trade of Boeing Capital Corp.

Monday, August 12, 2002
By JAMES WALLACE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER AEROSPACE REPORTER

...While Boeing is transforming itself into a global aerospace powerhouse far from its commercial airplane roots, the company's independent financial arm continues to broaden its role as a lender -- from commercial jetliners, including Airbus planes, to non-airplane big-ticket items such as oil rigs and ocean-going vessels.


more...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/82215_palmer12.shtml


User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2111 times:

Here is what is going to happen...

They are going to take the A340, Modify it a little. Put different engines on there and make it a twinjet and then pass it off as the Boeing 787  Yeah sure

(This is what happened to the MD-95, Boeing took over douglas, and slapped their name on the MD-95 when it was born as the MD-95. It should not have been changed)  Smile


User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2103 times:

BTW -- if anyone reads my post up above, but does not realize that it was a joke. Now you know. That goes double for seiple.

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