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Question About Qantas Schedule At FRA  
User currently offlineNa From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10654 posts, RR: 9
Posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2558 times:

I always asked myself why Qantas has such horrible arrival and departure times at Frankfurt. The flying kangeroo arrives around 6 in the morning, sits around the whole day and the full evening before leaving at midnight.
QF is one of my favorite airlines but this extremely unconvenient schedule makes it quite unlikely that I´ll choose them when going to OZ. Who wants to leave deadly tired at midnight - only to arrive at an evenly unpleasent time at the destination, about 5 in the morning! And who wants to arrive 6 in the morning when coming back, released into a long day after a very long flight starting at about 4 o´clock in the afternoon at Sydney? On top comes the unusual and uneconomically long parking time at FRA (more than 17 hours each day!)
I don´t see a single logical reason why QF is keeping this unpleasent schedule for many years now. Even if the key issue behind this schedule are the business-class passengers I would bet that they would applaud if the departure at Sydney and the arrival time at FRA would be 2 or 3 hours later. Thats far more in line with business hours.


21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2532 times:

Very good topic Na! I am also asking myself why they have these strange arrival and departure times. As you have mentioned in your post above, it is very uncomfortable for the passengers but I am wondering more about the long "turnaround" time at FRA (approximately 19 hours). In my opinion would they make more money when the plane flies back to Australia a few hours after arrival. SA has a similar schedule, they arrive very early in the morning but departure is late at night.

Patrick


User currently offlineTurbulence From Spain, joined Nov 1999, 963 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2521 times:

They do the same at LHR. They arrive at London around 6 in the morning. And honestly I cant tell the time they fly back to AUS, but in the meantime, the 744 flies a BA charter LHR-BCN-LHR for british cruisers (Barcelona is the main Mediterranean cruises harbour).

VASP used to do the same, GRU-SSA-BCN and back BCN-SSA-GRU, i flew five times with them, the arrival into BCN around midday after departure from SSA at midnight30 (from GRU three hours sooner) and then back to Brazil at 2330 from BCN, arriving to SSA (Salvador-Bahia) at 0600 with stopover at MAD, or at... 0430 if direct!!!!. The mighty blue M11 standed at BCN airport for about 12 hours four days a week.

This is on purpose for fying nighttime. Altough I'm not so sure about the convenience on the economical subject. Unless, off course, if this 12-to-19 hrs idle can mean a good rest for the crews and thus flying two crews instead of three or four. But I am just speculating.

Any better ideas?

Best turbulences


User currently offline9V-SPF From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1375 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2493 times:

I know that the QF 744 once flew a charter from FRA to Tenerife, but most of the times it´s standing on the apron for the whole time, so I´m also asking myself how this can be regarded as economically sensible.  Confused

Cheers,
Daniel


User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2492 times:

FRA-TFS? That is interesting, do you know for which airline/travel company they flew? Imagine you have booked a flight to TFS and you get a QF 744, cool!

A few years ago there was also a rumor about FRA-LHR flights with the QF 744 but they never realized it.

Patrick


User currently offlineSQ325 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 1451 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2487 times:

Maybe they are waiting for transit Passengers. I don't know exactly but they must arrive @ SYD or MEL @ something about 10-11 in the morning, best time for connecting flights within Australia or to NZ.
The same on the way to europe, late afternoon departure to get more transit passengers from Australia and NZ, don't forget there is an excellent evening connection to Singapore on the way to europe and a good night flight on way to Australia.
So I think QF just operates that times because so they get their Aircraft full with Passengers from all over Europe or Aus and NZ.
Don't forget how many flights to Sin with aslo excellent Aus and Nz connections FRA has.
12:30 and 20:45 SQ
22:20 LH
13:30 GA only 3or 4 times per week
plus the EK flight @ 14:05 with also good possibilities to connect to Aus.

regards Björn


User currently offlineSetjet From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2485 times:

Very good question!

Regarding the SAA flights I once heard that most of the passengers prefered the night flights! Hard to follow.
Even harder to believe that an airline would let their plane sit at an airport for 17 hours a day just to "please" the passengers.


User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2474 times:

Setjet,

I have also heard that many passengers prefer a night flight but in my opinion would it make more sense when there is a day flight and a night flight to/from South Africa. SA and LH are partners on that route, they can offer one flight in the Morning and an other in the evening. The only airline that offers daytime flights to South Africa is SR from ZRH.

Patrick


User currently offline9V-SPF From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1375 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2458 times:

Patrick, I don´t know, by which company the Qantas airplane was chartered but I remember hearing that it did fly to Tenerife North (don´t know the three letter code), not to TFS.

Bjoern´s argument concerning the transit passengers and their connecting flights is probably the one that hits the nail on its head. I can´t imagine any other reason for such a schdeule management.

Regards,
Daniel1


User currently offlineA340-Fan From Germany, joined Apr 2002, 252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2444 times:

QF parks at all european cities for a long time. QF flights arrive round about 6 in the morning and depart from FRA and FCO at 23:55, from CDG at 23:25 and from LHR at 12:15, 22:05 and 22:30 local time.

User currently offlineMr.BA From Singapore, joined Sep 2000, 3423 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2454 times:

I don't know but from Singapore, many wants to arrive in Australia in the morning. Arrival at destination at dawn is normally more popular than at night. But parking for 12 hours at FRA... doesn't it really cut profits?


Boeing747 万岁!
User currently offline9V-SPF From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1375 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2447 times:

Mr.Ba, it even parks at FRA for about 17 hours, which is a long time regarding that a 744 can make a lot of money within 17 hours when it is in the air.

User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2446 times:

Thanks for the information, Daniel. I believe that Tenerife North`s IATA code is TFN. TFS= South and TFN=North, TCI is the code for both airports, similar like NYC for JFK, LGA and EWR.

Bjoern`s guess is the only logical for me, but why is QF doing the same at LHR? BA is their partner, so they can offer one flight in the Morning and an other in the Evening as I mentioned in my post above for the SA/LH flights to South Africa.

Patrick


User currently offlineTwa@fra From China, joined Nov 2000, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2401 times:

I also think that the main reason for QF to use this schedule is to have the best connection at OZ and last but not least at their not to small HUB at SIN.
It`s also hard to schedule a good round trip from Europe to OZ, if want a good arr. & dep. time @ S.E.A. like SIN or BKK and a early arr. @ OZ to catch the most connex Flights. And doesn`t SYD also have noise regulations with does not allowed Flight`s before 6:00 a.m. - With all that, how should they schedule it better ?
If have a look at the schedule LH had at the time they have flown to OZ, they hadn`t been better, maybe for the OZ Pax, but if you want to go to BKK, you had arr. there at 3:00 a.m. !

Re. the ZA Flight`s to Europe. This "Red Eye" Flights should have the same reason - the connex Flight and that you can`t dep. with a fully load Aircraft from JNB in the late morning due to the hot conditions there.
But for some Airline it seams to work like KLM, some of their Flight going at daytime to ZA


User currently offlineNa From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2347 times:

TWA@fra,
if Sydney has noise regulations forbidding arrivals before 6 am, then this is another reason why QF should change their fleights from FRA (via SIN) because it arrives at 5 am! That means, business passengers will be in the city of Sydney before 7 - when every office and restaurant is closed. Stupid schedule, if you ask me.

I can understand SAA on the other hand. South Africa has the same time zone as Germany, so a night flight makes a lot of sense, saving the passengers a night in the hotel.


User currently offlineTsentsan From Singapore, joined Jan 2002, 2016 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2312 times:

The Paris-Sin and Rome-Sin flights will arriving in SIN at 0740 instead of evening.

QF17 to Paris will depart SIN 2325 arrive CDG 0610 and return to SIN as QF18 at 1215, arrive SIN at 0740.

QF15 to Rome will depart SIN 2310 arrive Rome 0510, and return to SIN as QF16 1300, arrive SIN at 0740.

So, thats a cut down in turn around time for 2 European flights.
WEF from 27 Oct.

Tsentsan



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User currently offlineEx_SQer From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 1435 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2297 times:

My suspicion is that QF scheduled its FRA flights in this matter to attract more higher-yielding business passengers. A businessperson can work all dayn in FRA, fly out at night, and arrive in SYD in the morning ready to do a full day of work. If QF were to turn around their flights earlier, business passengers will have less than half a day in the office before heading to the airport for an early afternoon/midday departure. They will then arrive in SYD at night and they'll have to stay one night before they can conduct business the next day.

Operating the flight in the day will depress yields somewhat as QF will have to offer lower fares to entice business passengers to skip half a day of work. These passengers will simply just take the evening SQ and LH flights.

Passengers prefer to fly at night, in any case.

I do agree, however, that keeping the 744 on the ground for 19 hours represents a tremendous opportunity cost, not to mention less-than-optimal aircraft utilisation. That's why SQ stopped this practice and started operating daytime departures ex-Europe, even though it meant lower yields on those flights.


User currently offlineV Jet From Australia, joined May 1999, 719 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2243 times:

It has everything to do with the curfew at Sydney and also the possibilites for connections at both ends. Many people fly into FRA to connect with the QF006 and leaving at that time of day gives maximum amount of time for pax to get to FRA from all over Europe. Also arriving into SYD early morning gives access to all flts throughout Australia and trans Tasman. Na you have to remember not everyone on QF006 is just going to SYD. If the acft turned around quickly in FRA and left around lunchtime then you get a late evening arrival into SYD with minimal connection possibilities. See its not done just to piss people off there is a reason!

User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2222 times:

OK, for the QF arrival and departure times we got an answer but what is with the flights to South Africa? If they would start here in the morning they arrive there in the evening and the passengers still have enough time to connect to other flights. I have mentioned in a post above that SA and LH are partners, in my opinion would it be better when they offer one daytime and one nighttime flight from FRA to JNB. What do you guys think about that?

Patrick


User currently offlineGreenjet From Ireland, joined Aug 2001, 952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2214 times:

South African have experimented with daylight flights in the past between London and South Africa but they were not popular, particularly with high yield business passengers. The cost of having the aircraft on the ground all day at LHR and FRA is outweighed by the high yields of night flights.

User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2207 times:

Very interesting, Greenjet. I did not know that SA has tested daylight flights between LHR and South Africa, I am surprised that they were not successful, I like daytime flights more that flying at night. I think that a lot of (business)passengers are sleeping during the night flight an when they arrive at South Africa they can immediately start with work or meet a business partner. On the other hand is it uncomfortable for economy passengers because it is very difficult to sleep in that class.

Patrick


User currently offlineCrosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2598 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2190 times:
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Exactly as V Jet said,
It's due to the noise curfew in Sydney.

This affects all Qantas' Europe-Australia flights, because due to the distances involved, and the time-zone differences there are very few departure/arrival time combinations which are commercially viable. A later arrival into SYD at say 8am would mean a 3am departure from FRA!!!

Heathrow services are even more critical because LHR also has night flying restrictions, and Qantas have carefully scheduled their flights to fit in with the restrictions at both SYD and LHR.

Ausralia-Europe flight timings are less critical, and Qantas has obviously made the decision that these times are commercially viable. And as TWA@fra said, the arrival/departure times at SIN/BKK on both legs require some consideration here.

As for the idea that business travellers are going to do a full days work in Germany, fly for 21 hours and cross 8 time zones, arrive at 5am and then do a full days work in Australia is a little unrealistic. I doubt many companies would expect employees to work effectively make sound business decisions just a couple of hours after stepping off a flight to Australia!

Don't think anyone on airliner.net is qualified to pick faults with Qantas' Kangaroo Route scheduling, Qantas were doing this before 99% of people here were born so I'm prepared to trust their judgement  Big grin

Regards
CROSSWIND


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