174thfwff From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6405 times:
Maybe if the airlines started to give a crap about their passengers then maybe they would have more business. Most of the employees I have been in contact with are rude, don't care about lost luggage, and cram you into a small seat only to give you dog food for dinner if you are lucky and get mad when you ask them for more soda when they are in the back talking.
The only airline that I have been 100% happy with is Jet Blue.
AMRAAM From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 75 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6356 times:
Ordual24, I wouldn't be so confident or cozy if I were you.
The majors in the US have really lost touch. Their profits hinge on premium/business travelers while they stick it to the rest of us (the majority). They're turning into Greyhound/Amtrak cattle haulers.
People figure if they're going to get the shaft by the majors might as well go for the cheapest rates on airlines like JetBlue, Southwest, Ryanair, easyJet. Point to point, skipping congested hubs. These airlines are thriving in a very tough market.
Braniff727 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 686 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (11 years 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6321 times:
I don't want to start a fight here, but I don't want the government saving any airline, especially United or USAirways.
While I'm sure it's know that I'm not a big UAL fan, I don't want to have to pay for the mismanagement of a company simply because they are big and going under. I'm sorry, I work hard for my paycheck and I don't want it going to bail out an airline that can't get itself in shape.
Both U and UAL have been poorly run for years. If they can't make it, then it's time for them to turn off the lights and let other companies that are able to make good business decisions take their place.
American, Continental, Delta and Northwest are all doing quite well after 9/11. They have made decisions prior to 9/11 that made them far more financially sound, and they are surviving. United has poked fun at the age of the NW fleet, but you don't see NW looking for concessions from employees to get a loan garuntee, do you?
I truly feel bad for the situation those companies are in, but I don't want any of my tax dollars going to help them because of their own stupidity leading up to their current situation.
Aerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 6728 posts, RR: 13 Reply 11, posted (11 years 3 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6305 times:
I don't think just 'Sept 11' can be solely put down to all UAs problems, a contributing factor for sure,forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't they just post their 9th financial quarter or half year loss in a row, that puts it at long before Sept 11. I really do hope that UA stays. it has so much history, and is such a major player in the Global Airline market.
Picarus From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 299 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 6147 times:
I guess I should have seen this one coming. It would be nice if everyone would just stop speculating about what, if, how, why, and when the next airline will file bankrupcty.
I'm sure it's fascinating to create all kinds of mysterious what-ifs, but it really does not serve any valuable purpose. Airlines have filed bankrupcty before and survive today (Continental--twice. American West--twice). They have also filed bankrupcty and disapeared completely (Pan Am, Eastern).
U S Air's bankrupcty filing a strategic move to gain DIP financing and time before it was pushed into bankrupty by creditors. United may follow the same path, or it may not. In the end, does anyone really believe that they can do anything about it one way or the other?
Travatl From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7 Reply 14, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6090 times:
Braniff727 writes "American, Continental, Delta and Northwest are all doing quite well after 9/11." Uh, Not. They may be faring LESS BADLY, but they are all four FAR from doing quite well. Let's take a look:
AMERICAN - Lost $495 million in the second quarter and $1.07 billion in the first half of 2002. Passenger traffic fell 9.7 percent to 12.0 billion RPM in July, compared with 13.3 billion RPM a year earlier. Capacity dropped 8.6 percent in July to 15.9 billion ASM.
CONTINENTAL - Lost $139 million in the second quarter and $305 million in the first half of the year. Passenger traffic at the No. 5 carrier fell 8.6 percent to 5.7 billion RPM in July, compared with 6.2 billion RPM a year earlier. Capacity shrank by 10.1 percent to 7.2 billion ASM.
DELTA - Lost $186 million in the second quarter and $583 million in the first half of the year. Passenger traffic fell 6.6 percent to 9.72 billion RPM in July, compared with 10.4 billion RPM a year earlier. Capacity fell 6.6 percent in July to 12.5 billion ASM.
NORTHWEST - Lost $93 million in the second quarter and $264 million in the first half of the year. Passenger traffic fell 8 percent to 6.98 billion RPM in July, compared with 7.59 billion RPM a year earlier. Capacity dropped 8.5 percent in July to 8.7 billion ASM.
In comparison, yes UA's and US's numbers are worse, but there isn't anybody out of the woods yet with the exception of Southwest:
UNITED - Lost $341 million in the second quarter and $851 million in the first half of 2002. Passenger traffic fell 12.3 percent to 10.52 billion RPM in July, compared with 11.99 billion RPM a year earlier. Capacity fell 13.1 percent in July to 13.6 billion ASM.
USAIRWAYS - Lost $248 million in the second quarter and $517 million in the first half of the year. Passenger traffic fell 18.6 percent in July to 3.9 billion RPM, compared with 4.9 billion a year earlier. Capacity shrank 19.4 percent to 249 million ASM.
SOUTHWEST - Earned $102 million in the second quarter and $124 million in the first half of the year. Passenger traffic rose 0.4 percent to 4.33 billion RPM in July, compared with 4.31 billion a year earlier. Capacity grew 4 percent in July to 5.9 billion.
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7860 posts, RR: 5 Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6049 times:
I think UA will NOT go bust anytime soon.
The reasons are simple:
1. They have a very powerful international network (their transpacific network is profitable, and UA has the highly coveted access to LHR). UA looks like it's losing money big time, but only due to the fact we are talking a very large airline indeed.
2. UA has a important hubs at ORD, DEN and SFO. The DEN hub is very profitable for UA because there is essentially no serious competition there.
3. UA is a major player on the LAX-JFK and SFO-JFK routes, some of the busiest domestic routes in the world.
4. UA has many powerful friends in Congress, especially from Illinois, Colorado and California. This influence will ensure that UA will not need to go into Chapter 11 anytime soon.
5. UA's association with several regional airlines across the USA (SkyWest, Air Wisconsin, ASA (?) ) means there are plentiful feeds to UA's major hubs and other major UA destinations.
6. Being a founding member of Star Alliance, UA frequent flyers can fly to anywhere in the world and still get UA frequent flyer mileage in most of the airlines in the alliance.
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5154 posts, RR: 25 Reply 16, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6030 times:
I think the government will step in before they let UA go bust or any of the big 3 for that matter!
Honestly, I would not bet on that! Sure, the government did step in to help out the airlines post-9/11 but I doubt they it will go out of its way to save UA or any other financially strapped carrier for that matter. If history offers us any lesson, the demise of EA, PA, TW, Branniff, etc., etc., are quite telling. If the government did not step in to save any of these pioneers of the American airline industry, why should/would they step in to help UA? Honestly, the government can save itself a lot of grief by allowing these airlines to go out of business and having others take their place than to try and save them from extinction.
UALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5993 times:
Some of you people have let your peronal feelings get in the way of objectivly looking at the situation. UA is not in the same position that US is in.
The only reason that UA is mulling over a Chapter 11 filing is because of a $900 million debt that needs to be refinaced this fall. I think that ua has some 2 billion dollars in assets that it own out right. In other words if UA can't get the debt refinaced they can sell off some of there assets to pay the bill.
US on the other hand was reported today to have 7.8 billion in debt and 7.3 billion in assets. Thats a far cry from UA's problem.
Also some of you apparently don't know what a loan gaurantee is. The US Goverment is co-signing a loan that an airline would get from the private sector. The taxpayer is only out money is the airline defaults on the private loan. If you drive a Dodge car today its because the US goverment gave a similar gaurantee to Chrysler in the early eighties. This is not unusual, the only thing unusual about it are the sircumstances that made bad times worse, saddled airlines w/ extra security costs and scared away customers.
UA has not been poorly run for years as someone said. It was poorly run for 2 years. See what the difference 2 years can make. UA was the worlds largest airline, profitable, and founding member of Star Alliance, before Goodwin. The big turn came in 1 YEAR 1 Summer, and the pilots had alot to do w/ it, not just management.
Lastly, UA will be fine, even if they file for Chapter 11 many airlines have before. You all like pointing out PanAm and Eastern. But you leave out CO which had an almost yearly habit of filing Chapter 11. They almost have turned a profit, they would have if the security costs where not straggling the airlines.
You peopel get your facts straight before making dire pronouncements, remember Dire pronouncements with out getting the facts straight got Goodwin fired.
Ual777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5958 times:
you have put that just wonderfully.
it is funny to hear you say you dont want your tax dollars going to helping out a poorly mismanaged airline?
instead you would rather have it going to a lazy sod on welfare sittin on his ass while YOU stagger off to work at o dark hundred?
i feel that this is your opinion, and i have mine that people dont agree with but i gots to say a couple things to remedy the situation.
first if you dont like the dog food then eat at mcdonalds that pretty much every major airport has,if you dont like mcdonalds pack a lunch.
second if you dont like the small seats ask for e+ and if they wont give it to you buy first class tkts next time.
and last you say that every employee you encounter is rude?
maybe you carry yourself the wrong way,maybe it's you? we have premiers fly out weekly on us in COS and there are a couple who are always cheerful and some who are always jerks.why? i dont know but nobody treats the jerks well and they see them comin and people run and hide.smile more and treat people the way you want to be treated yourself.
now there are those EMPLOYEES i dont even like to work next to,for they are rude and always hold a grudge.so if your ever in COS i'll check you in and i will smile for ya and if you say your from a.net i'll sneak you up to e+ for your whole trip on UAL.
Braniff727 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 686 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5954 times:
No, AA, CO, DL and NW are not doing well, but they are in no danger of bankruptcy. My point is that they aren't trying to get concessions from employees and worrying about bankruptcy. The reason is because they didn't make stupid decisions. UA and US did. End of story.
Poorly managed businesses will eventually get weeded out, and this might be their time.
SEVEN_FIFTY7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 957 posts, RR: 4 Reply 21, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5947 times:
UALPHLCS is exactly right. All this blabbing about how "I don't won't my tax dollars going towards saving any airline" is coming out of the mouths of those who have no clue of what they're talking about.
Folks, for once and for all, a loan guarantee is NOT a "loan." Please read UALPHLCS's post.
Also, understand that when companies file for Chapter 11, it IS within the realm of possiblity that they can emerge from it successfully. It does NOT automatically mean the airline will "perish" by the following year (or two years, three years, or four years for that matter).
UALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5916 times:
FYI those of you who think UA can't make it without Goverment help and can get there hands on the Wall Street Journal should read the article in todays Journal about how UA DOSEN'T NEED THE MONEY, to survive. They explain that this is all a tactic to get concessions from labor and with Goverment backing get a better interest rate on the money they will eventually borrow. They have not even tried to go out and get a loan from banks. Why? Because it will be a higher interest rate. With a goverment garauntee the banks will lower the rate UA gets a better deal and the passengers get a better deal. Who do you think pays the interest on airline loans? Ticket buyers thats who. Some of you need to take a course in economics. I want UA to get the Goverment gaurantee, I think it will be good for the airline, and good for ticket prices in the long run.
UAL-Fan From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 369 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5893 times:
Maybe there are lot's of people out there like me. I am a 100,000 + mile a year traveler. After the summer from absolute hell, I just never went back. I have found that other carriers appreciate my business.
I honestly do not feel the US government will set the precedent of keeping this company from going under. If they do, where does it stop? All the other airlines would definitely be crying fowl.
25 UALPHLCS: Let me ask you a question UAL-Fan, why not come back? The idea that a any large corporation could "personally" appreciate your business seems a bit mu
26 RoyalDutch: I feel bad to see any carrier going under, because I know there are lots of good employees out there who will suffer...so I certianly hope that UA can
27 Westjet!Eh!: I would like to say goooooodbye to United Airlines...I'm gonna miss it! :-(
28 Klwright69: RayChuang..... I'm not sure having powerful friends in Congress makes any difference whatsoever in whether a company files chapter 11. I'm sure CO, TW
29 Flymia: Again Hopefully and probly not but if UA gose down i for sure see Delta taking over is South American Routes and some othe INT routes. hopefully not t
30 UALPHLCS: Good Lord do any of you people READ. Westjet, is that you professional opinion? HAve any of you actually read the other posts? Let me try to get you a
31 HlywdCatft: Well working at DTW I see some of Northwest's problems too. This past week some of Northwest's workers were picketing at the ticketing level of the ne
32 Lj: Just like UALPHLCS correctly puts it UAL's possible Chapter 11 talk is nothing more than a way of getting the concessions it wants. Even if they decla
33 174thfwff: My dads friends businesses are failing, why doesn't the government help them out?
34 STT757: I would just like to add a couple comments, First can we all agree that if that bloated purchase of US Airways had gone through a couple years ago tha
35 FLY777UAL: I think that I am actually the only person here ready for the bankruptcy and embracing it with open arms. There is no question in my mind that United
36 Na: FLY777UAL, it would be wonderful, if this could happen. I mean its their own company and their own stocks that are at risk! But its always the same, t
37 LoneStarMike: UA is talking about totally restructering the fares it charges, and changing the buisness model. BUT, that won't start until a new CEO is in charge.Sp
38 TzMSP: Braniff727: Now don't get me wrong, I'm a NW fan. I love the airline, and even own stock in it. But before we toot NW's horn too loudly, let us never
39 Ual777contrail: lonestarmike, it sure cant hurt to have a ceo from outside the aviation industry.look at what goodwin did to UAL.he has been with UNITED for like 37 y
40 STT757: Didn't Leo Mullin of Delta airlines use to head a Power company?.. And what about Donald Carty? I know he's Canadian but where else hs he managed?.
41 Padcrasher: Frankly, you could bring Jack Welch in here and he would get nowhere. Unions are just too powerful in the airline industry. You either pay or you're c
42 Ual777contrail: there needs to be a cap on everything, a pilot isnt worht making $500,000 a year. a mechanic isnt worth making $100,000 a year. a CSR isnt workth maki
43 STT757: Do you really wat to use baseball as an analogy for collective bargaining? Baseball and the airlines need to cap salaries and improve the health of th
44 Mexicana757: UAL will survive, UAL is to big to go out just like that, the government wouldn't let it happen. And for those of you who say " oh I don't want the go
45 Tu154m: Ual777contrail, When you state that a mechanic is not worth $100,000..... A)Do you feel safe when flying? B)Does your job require you to have a workin
46 Canadian747: Look! you in the state you are lucky the US government bails out the airlines, Take an example Here in canada we had Canadi>n witch had a major pacifi
47 Ual777contrail: TU154M, dont preach to me about do i feel safe when i fly crap,do you feel safe when you fly? there has to be a ceiling,or should be.that is why airli
48 Tu154m: Contrail, I will preach to you about feeling safe......safety should and IS the most important thing about flying!!! I don't care if it is United or C
49 Rhino4ever: How will UAL pay these loans back. They aren't even close to supporting their cost structure as it is. Their recent pay hike and work rules are very u
50 Murf: There are certain people in this world who have skills, knowledge or licenses which most people don't have, for this reason they can demand and usuall
51 Go Canada!: do you not think that the D.o.J threat to sue united and usairways can only have worsened the situation that was occuring?
52 Rhino4ever: UAL will be very low on cash soon. Thru the end of year have $273 Million due to cover committed expenses, $300 million owed banks Nov. 17, $575 Milli
53 CactusA319: David Greising Numbers add up to United filing for Chapter 11 Published August 18, 2002 Take a look at an airline on the verge of bankruptcy. It's not
54 Ual777contrail: TU154M, your post had some interesting comments in there i would like to clear up. 1) you said " name on person throwing bags making $95,000 a year "
55 CactusA319: i am not trying to pick a fight,i just dont beleive all the stuff you have said. and right now the top out with out o.t. is $54,000 a year for CSR'S.
56 UAL Bagsmasher: CSRs are not bagslingers as you suggest. CSRs work customer service. RSMs work ramp. Two different job classifications, two different pay scales. Work
57 I LOVE EWR: DouglasDC8, whats up its the Rutgers student again. Would it be possible for you to send me an email, I have a few questions for you?
58 UAL Bagsmasher: My above post was intended for UAL777contrail. Not CactusA319. My apologies
59 UALPHLCS: Now I have a bone to pick with you UALBagmasher. I support what you guys do. I know its tough out in the weather in winter and summer, I know you guys
60 Ual777contrail: this is intended for ualbagsmasher, you post is nothing new to me, i know what you (rampers)do. i on the other hand do all you do and still work fligh
61 RoastedNutz: ual777contrail: OK. So what do you want? A medal? How about some Chardonay with that whine?
62 CactusA319: Well that's great to hear UALcontrail777.
63 Tu154m: Just wanted to get Ual777contrail's background/history. I am currently a Line AMT in ATL and have worked in Heavy Mtc, Base Mtc as well as Ticket Coun
64 Ual777contrail: TU154M, Never claimed to know all,ualbagsmasher wanted to explain the diffrence between CSR'S and RSM'S.he talked of his hard work conditions and we i
65 UALPHLCS: Amen to that Contrail. If any F/A's or pilots would like to ask what the WE in the IAM have done to help the company, I'll take my retro IN FULL right
66 AA717driver: UAL777--the summer from hell was not caused by the pilots. They may have planned on doing some mischief but the company did it for them. UAL Seriously
67 Ual777contrail: aa717driver, your bitterness for UNITED will eventually end.the summer from hell could have been avoided by management and our PILOTS. so just because
68 LoneStarMike: There are certain people in this world who have skills, knowledge or licenses which most people don't have, for this reason they can demand and usuall
69 CactusA319: Altough the aforementioned Summer From Hell (interesting title) was caused by the pilots, it was exascerbated (sp?) by the fact that United managemen
70 Ual777contrail: you can say all you want cactusa319,the pilots were 85% of the problem.they sure werent complaining when their 401k's and all that damn stock they rec
71 LoneStarMike: Y'all get our your blow torches, 'cause I'm probably gonna get flamed big-time for what I'm about to say.If I were in charge of deciding whether or no