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What Is The Story About The NWA 717s?  
User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (12 years 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4005 times:

Is it true that Boeing is sending 3 717s to NWA to "Try" them out. I have heard from many people but I am starting a thread on it to get some "direct" answers.

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (12 years 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3952 times:

Supposely, this is true...unofficially. It has not been confirmed thru Boeing or Northwest. For one, I've love to see NW get at least 100 717s in their fleet. The DC-9s simply won't last forever, no matter how well-maintained they are. So, to answer the topic's question...we'll have to wait & see. And keep our fingers crossed.  Wink/being sarcastic Regards.


"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offline5280AGL From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 414 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (12 years 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3930 times:

The 717 seems like an odd fit for NWA. It would make more sense to keep everything A318/A319/A320, instead of throwing in another type. I thought it was a goal of NWA to eventually have complete fleet commonality among their narrowbodies?

User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1053 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3891 times:

This would be an interesting development. I had the impression that NW did give it a serious look back when it was the MD-95, and decided that revamping their existing DC-9 fleet was a better move than acquiring new aircraft at a higher cost. Are they having a change of heart ..... and is Boeing more willing to 'deal' in the present business climate?

User currently offlineLowfareair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3844 times:

CF-CPI: NW is going to slowly phase out the 9s soon as they hit 100,000 cycles. They will need a replacement at that time.

I think that the 717 would be the better option. It costs less overall than the A318 on the DC9 routes that are flown. The A318 and 736 are too heavy to do the job.


User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1053 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (12 years 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3802 times:

Lowfareair, do you know when these -9s are likely to hit 100,000 cycles, on average? When the DC-9s were upgraded (around 1995) they were talking about getting an extra 15 years out of them, which would put them almost 1/2 way though that period. Is there any need to make a decision within the next year or two?

I agree that the NW 717 makes sense. Anecdotal evidence suggests that it is more efficient on short routes than the 737-600 and the planned A318. I'm also told that MDC did a much better job on the systems and electronics than they did with the MD-90 and MD-11. It deserves a lucky break and I hope someday that AA will see the light and return to it if economic circumstances allow.


User currently offlineLowfareair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3730 times:

>>Anecdotal evidence suggests that it is more efficient on short routes than the 737-600 and the planned A318.<<

Not just anecdotal, hard evidence has shown it. For example, it burns less fuel than the 736. It weighs less, so the landing fees cost less. Both of these facts contribute to a good part of the savings, as fuel consumption is high during t/o, and it is supposed to fly 7-10 flights/day.


User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (12 years 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3715 times:

The 717 would be a good fit, and an good alternative to RJ's and a more exact replacement for the DC9-15

User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5084 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (12 years 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3686 times:

I would love to see NW replace their DC-9 with 717!!


Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3568 times:

I wonder if there is any backroom dealing going on between Northwest, Boeing, and Airtran? I am sure Airtran would like them to get the 717 to secure the future of the line and bring down costs. Perhaps an agreement to stay out of certain markets?
An offer to share operational knowledge regarding the 717? Even a codeshare out of ATL and MSP or Memphis?

Just pure speculation- I havnt heard a thing. But these two carriers seem well positioned for some sort of partnership, especially if NW orders the 717. Remember, Airtran does have business class...


User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3539 times:

What about the possibility of a "regional" type replacement for the DC9, perhaps one of Embraer's new jets? Or the Fairchild-Dornier competitor, if someone can buy them out and complete the program?

User currently offlineTzMSP From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 137 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (12 years 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3532 times:

The only reason I remain speculative about this is that NW has openly said that it is not impressed with the 717s and NW claims that their DC9s have a better dispatch rate than the 717s.

Given the price tag of adding another Boeing as opposed to continuing ahead with their A319/A320 options (or opting for A318s) I still see this as unlikely.

Though I think if there is such a deal where they could try three B717s for little/no cost, they'd be fools not to take the money and run.

The Boeing stock could use the boost, as well, as NW is a stong Airbus customer...

Just my thoughts...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy tzMSP


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3905 posts, RR: 27
Reply 12, posted (12 years 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3519 times:

NW is also a STRONG Boeing customer and has been throughout its 75 year history. Remember they do operate 36 747s and 58 757s, with at least 15 still on order. NW is not interested in being an Airbus or Boeing exclusive customer. They are interested in operating a/c that will serve the route structure the best with low operational costs. This will then maximize profits. They are in business to make mone, not in the business of getting in bed with any particular manufacturer, like their partners at CO are. The first 75 DC9s, when they reach their 100,000 cycle limit are being replaced by the 319/320. This was straight from Andersons mouth. There hasn't been much discussion about the remaining a/c. The 717 might be a good option, for its costs and weight. The 318 while common with the 319 and 320 might be to heavy to prove economical for the short hops that NW uses the 9s for. With over 120 CRJs on order/option this could be the answer to everyones questions as to what will replace the DC9s. Or it could just mean massive airlink expansion... can we say LAX and BOS?



AZJ


User currently offlineTzMSP From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 137 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (12 years 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3513 times:

AZJ:

Sorry, I did not mean to insinuate that NW is in bed with Airbus. In fact, I think NW to be a very bottom-line based airline. They are indeed strong Boeing customers in the 757 and 747 class; I feel one of the main reasons they have opted for the Airbus line is the price tag. They are a very fiscally conservative airline; but I do agree their decisions are based on feduciary, not political matters.

tzMSP


User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6287 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (12 years 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3426 times:

If I were looking for a 100 seat aircraft right now, I'd look to Texas and Virginia. There are 74 confirmed and 40 likely low time/cycle F-100s available.


Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
User currently offlineLowfareair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3377 times:

>>NW has openly said that it is not impressed with the 717s and NW claims that their DC9s have a better dispatch rate than the 717s.<<

1)What is their ratio of spares/scheduled DC9s in the fleet

2)What is their average utilization of the DC9s when compared to the B717s at AirTran?


User currently offline717fan From Switzerland, joined Nov 2001, 2017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (12 years 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3336 times:

NW has never said that they are not impressed with the 717. They said only that the dispatch rate of their DC-9's is better that on Airtran's 717...

I have also heard that Boeing is trying to "sell/donate" 3 717's to NWA. This could be true or not, we will see.
According to Boeing Capital's website only 3 of the former TWA 717's are available as of now. So the number is correct....


User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

If I were looking for a 100 seat aircraft right now, I'd look to Texas and Virginia. There are 74 confirmed and 40 likely low time/cycle F-100s available.

Uh... I do not think there is a chance in hell NWA would want some F-100s. If I were looking for a 100 seat Aircraft right now, The 717 is the most comfortable and spacious choice right now. Those 90 seat RJs have got to be CRAMPED.


User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2091 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (12 years 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3241 times:

There's also no way Boeing will "donate" a multi-million dollar a/c to NW. Maybe they'll let NW trial it for a short period but not outright give it to them. The other airlines with far more orders placed with Boeing would go nuts and Boeing wouldn't risk alienating their other customers nor sacrifice themselves to similar schemes in the future.

User currently offlineAA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (12 years 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3223 times:

Sure, the 717 has a lower dispatch rate than the -9, it's a lot more complex and is a new airplane. The question should be, "does it have a lower dispatch rate than the Airbus?".

Also, a not-so-insignificant cost is training. All the -9 pilots can be transitioned to the 717 with a 7-day training course and minimal line training.
The bus or F100 would take the usual 5-6 weeks.TC



FL450, M.85
User currently offlineAlaskaairlines From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2054 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (12 years 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3195 times:

What type of CRJ's does NWA have on order? Any -900's?

Hows it going Azj? Haven't talked to you in a while, still FO on the avro? Upgrading anytime soon? Hows the aviation industry after 9/11, are they getting better?

-Dmitry


User currently offline717fan From Switzerland, joined Nov 2001, 2017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (12 years 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3179 times:

If NWA is so happy with its DC-9's (what really must be the case!), it would be logical to buy a NEW DC-9 called 717....
Perhaps it will be "political" Airbus or Boeing order.....


User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (12 years 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3154 times:

The F-100 concept is interesting only because the purchase costs would be very low (appealing to NW), the airframes young (appealing) and the plane was really designed for short-haul operations -- really just a large RJ.

That said, the maintenance questions around the F-100 aren't known; while AA talked about them in their retirement statement, OTOH, that was also a PR release to the masses, where it would be a lot harder to explain pay rates, etc.

The basic issue remains that NW has repeated stated that the aircraft acquisition costs far outweigh the reduced operating costs. If the F-100's can be maintained and dispatched for a reasonable cost, then the acquisition cost, which will be near zero, makes them an attractive option.

Steve


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 23, posted (12 years 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

I dont expect that NW would be interested in the F100s that AA and US are putting to rest; the F100 is out of production and would not offer much of an advantage over NW's old but updated DC9S aircraft.

Concerning Boeing lending NW a couple of 717s to try them out, it would not be the first time that a manufacturer tried this technique, and many times it has been successful.

Us older guys remember the following deals:

1. McD Douglas offered both TWA and AA MD80s to try out on no-risk leases, I beleive that each carrier got the first 15 MD80s for minimal payments and could return the aircraft at any time.....well, both became huge MD80 customers (AA acquired something like 240 of the type, excluding those inherited though mergers, and TWA had a large MD80 fleet, and kept the line open at the end, buying more and more MD80s when other airlines looked to other types).

2. Airbus let Eastern try out 4 A300B4, free of charge, for a winter season back in 1978 I believe......EA flew the aircraft on its busy JFK and EWR to PBI, FLL and MIA routes and went on to buy about 30 of the type, this was Airbus' way of getting into the US market.

The 717 would be ideal for NW.....an advanced update of the DC9, it is really the best choice to replace the DC9-30s on short high-frequency routes out of NW's hubs. NW already has many A319s for thin, longer routes.....and the A318 (like the 736) is too much airplane for rapid segments of 45 to 90 minutes; while its logical that the A319 will replace the DC9-50, the 717 would be a great choice for the DC9S routes, of course, the common cockpit issue arrises, but the potential 717 fleet would be between 50 and 100 aircraft so it could have dedicated crew with any financial implication. Lets see what happens.


User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6287 posts, RR: 34
Reply 24, posted (12 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3002 times:

Well my original post was a bit tongue in cheek. But the F-100 would have an acquistion cost some 60% lower than a new 717. This would make the 5-6 week transition for pilots worthwhile. As for maintanance cost, it's a Fokker. 'Nuff said.

The other Steve.



Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
25 Post contains images Sllevin : Don't get me wrong, I do indeed think that NW going with the F-100's is very unlikely. Not totally impossible, should they decide to do it, but not a
26 Post contains links and images QatarAirways : BR715-A1-30 said: "Those 90 seat RJs have got to be CRAMPED." Well the CRJ's are cramped but the EMB-170/-175/-190/-195 are not. They have the widest
27 Azjubilee : As mentioned before - on a very similar thread this last week, NW is not interested in making "political" deals with Boeing or Airbus. If the 318 prov
28 AA717driver : AZJ--I didn't know you were at Mesaba. I have flown with a few ex-Mesaba people at TWA--great guys! Don't let the bastards get you down. This cycle wi
29 Post contains images Acidradio : AZJ: I can assure you that the whopping $225 bonus check I got last time is not very fair payment considering how much I bust my ass at that place and
30 Azjubilee : Acidradio - yes, the $300 bonus before taxes isn't much, but at least you're getting them. At least you're receiving recognition for the hard work tha
31 BR715-A1-30 : The ERJ-170 looks very comfortable. I would not mind flying on one myself, but if NWA wants to replace the DC9, The 717 would be the only feasible cho
32 Sllevin : BR715: Why would the 717 be the only feasible choice? After all, the 717 is likely to be a very scarce bird 10 or 15 years from now; while I am sure t
33 AerLingus : Selevin: I think the main reason for the 717 choice is that they already have a ton of Boeing jets and I believe this would at least be PARTLY in keep
34 717fan : By the way, NWA is not the airline with great fleet commonality. And with the recent A330/753 order, this seems not the highest priority of NWA...
35 Nwa747-400 : Right now the NW fleet is under major renewal... the enventual NW fleet will be fairly few types 1. 747-400/200 2. A330-300 3. 757-300/200 4. A319/A32
36 Srbmod : AirTran's upper management is made up mostly of ex-Northwest Airlines people, so it would not be surprising if they were trying to influence NWA into
37 TEDSKI : What about NW going for the A318 with CFM56s? They do operate CFM56 powered A319s & A320s that will give the A318 both engine and cockpit commonality?
38 RJ : As far as the F-100 wish is for some people, I believe this excerpt from Aviationnow sums things up: AMERICAN SAID THE F100 retirement will bring abou
39 Post contains images Sllevin : Of course, with CO announcing that it will park 11 more MD-80's, perhaps the concept of just replacing DC-9's with MD-80's will become a reality. Afte
40 IMissPiedmont : AAghh! I give up. NO, NW will not take the F.28-0100 from either AA or US. It was meant as a joke. The aircraft is awesome, it is efficient and it is
41 STT757 : Why would NWA want to add M80s to their fleet, they just retired the last of the former Republic M80s from NW's fleet two years ago.
42 717fan : I don't think they will buy used MD-80's. They have a lot of A320 which do the same work as the MD-80 and are by far more ecomonical....
43 Travellin'man : I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but another reason that NW would go for the 717 is simply that I'm sure that Boeing will give them a sweeth
44 Mt99 : I thought Boeing was not going to "buy" market share. If they are consitent (which they have been with other initiatives{sarcarsm}) with that philosph
45 CV640 : You heard the Boston and LAX rumor too? That's the latest hot rumor round over here, although I doubt they'll replace Eagle anytime soon. Who knows th
46 BR715-A1-30 : If NWA gets these 3 "Trial" 717s, and they like them. An order for 100 Aircraft could save the program. (At least for a little while through 2006)...
47 717fan : I mailed to NWA about this. The answer is: NWA has currently no 717's on order (What we all know). They will discuss that (a possible order) later. So
48 Azjubilee : CV640 - just finished a grueling 6 day (back to back trips) worth 29.5 hours that took me into DTW the last few days. Maybe I saw you? At any rate, I'
49 Post contains links Gr8slvrflt : NW has openly said that it is not impressed with the 717s and NW claims that their DC9s have a better dispatch rate than the 717s. http://www.boeing.c
50 LGB Photos : Okay, I just read a Boeing press release that said "the 717 had a dispatch rate of 99.65% on over 3200 flights recently. How do NWA's DC-9's compare?
51 717fan : LGB Photos, I believe that NWA is still looking at the 717.
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