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A Plan For New York's Airports?  
User currently offlineFrequentflier From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 422 posts, RR: 1
Posted (12 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2345 times:

New Yorkers-Face it, we are constantly screwed by the airline industry. Our airports, for the most part, are dirty and old, and while JFK gets a ton of foreign airlines, New York is a very boring aviation city to live in.

LGA is really, really congested. There's just no room for anything which is a shame because the DL/NW terminal sucks and the central terminal is not the nicest in the world (however, the new retail area is pretty nice).

JFK is not so much congested as just badly built. What kind of an airport has not one, not two, not even five but NINE TERMINALS (eight after TWA moved out)??? The AirTrain will be the first connection other than the roadway between each terminal, but will still serve some of the worst terminals in the country. T1 and T4 are a nice step in the right direction, as well as AA's new midfield terminal, but terminals like the old AA and the current jetBlue (airside) are just bad.

EWR is also space constrained, but is probably more fortunate than the last 2 examples. Yes, some terminals are old, but the new Continental terminal is supposed to be really great (I haven't seen it yet).

The secondary airports (HPN, SWF, ISP) all suffer from a lack of frequency (not so much ISP because of SWA). HPN is a really nice airport, but it's pathetic that a few rich snobs could hold up expansion there when they probably own jets that roll down the same runways that could hold much larger aircraft.

Does anyone think that something can be done to transform NYC into the great aviation city that it used to be?

14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBigPhilNYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 4076 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (12 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2322 times:

What's wrong with the DL/NW terminal at LGA?

What's wrong with NYC aviation? you get to see all kinds of great planes, even the concorde. Three airports to choose form, and having all kinds of aircraft, busy schedules which make for exicting spotting, and planes everywhere you look.

I think NYC is bettter than most places in terms of aviation.



Phil Derner Jr.
User currently offlineJcxp15 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 997 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (12 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2297 times:

I agree with Frequentflyer about the DL/NW terminal at LGA. It is way too small IMO to accomodate all aircraft. In the mornings, DL planes are forced to wait just beyond the terminal, and then taxi into the gate once departure time nears. Also, turn arounds on a lot of DL flights happen sometimes in less than two hours, which is fine for morning traffic, but in the afternoon, especially when landing on RWY22, sometimes it takes the plane over an hour to taxi to the gate. Unfortunately, LGA is not going to get any bigger anytime soon, so I guess we have to live with it. I envisioned one large airport for NYC, rather than having LGA and JFK, but in reality it would be too far from the city, face huge community opposition, and wouldn't work.

User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (12 years 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2286 times:

Does anyone think that something can be done to transform NYC into the great aviation city that it used to be?

Reality check: you're talking about New York, a city where it takes an eternity to get anything done. A city that's been trying to build a desparately needed subway line on Second Avenue for over 75 years without success. A city that takes a year to pave a few blocks of roadway, with the resulting disruption driving many merchants out of business (e.g. Columbus Avenue, 14th Street). A city that's already starting to turn the World Trade Center reconstruction into a giant f***-up, which means that a decade from now the site will still be a hole in the ground. So don't hold your breath waiting for any major airport improvements.
On the other hand, there is one way that a new airport could be built. Let word slip to the Times that the money's needed for a shelter for homeless ex-con drug addicts with AIDS. Before you know it, all the limousine liberals on the Upper West Side will be writing blank checks for the project!




"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineFrequentflier From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 422 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (12 years 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2271 times:

"A city that's already starting to turn the World Trade Center reconstruction into a giant f***-up, which means that a decade from now the site will still be a hole in the ground."

Can you please explain this? When 9/11 happened, would you have expected that the entire site would be CLEAR less than one year later? What would you like for the city to have done with the site by now. Nothing is definite, and probably won't be for some time. However, I would say that Bloomberg has Ground Zero pretty high up on his to do list, probably right after protecting the city's welfare.

To get back on topic, yes, everything in NY takes an eternity. Being a Mets and Jets fan, I am especially aware of that fact. However, something has to be done before the skies max out again, which might not be too far into the future.

I agree that NY is a great city for diversity of international aircraft, but I'm talking not in terms of spotting, but rather in terms of passenger comfort.


User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (12 years 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2259 times:

A city that's already starting to turn the World Trade Center reconstruction into a giant f***-up, which means that a decade from now the site will still be a hole in the ground.
Can you please explain this? When 9/11 happened, would you have expected that the entire site would be CLEAR less than one year later? What would you like for the city to have done with the site by now. Nothing is definite, and probably won't be for some time. However, I would say that Bloomberg has Ground Zero pretty high up on his to do list, probably right after protecting the city's welfare.

Massive infusions of FEMA funds got the site cleared pretty quickly. But now there's nothing but bickering over the reconstruction plans, with each special interest jockeying for position.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineBigPhilNYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 4076 posts, RR: 54
Reply 6, posted (12 years 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2240 times:

"Reality check: you're talking about New York, a city where it takes an eternity to get anything done"

The IDIOCY of this statement comepltely discredits anythign you said in that post.

The capital of the world, the place where you can get ANYTHING, a place that is KNOWN for being fast paced, you say takes and eternity to get things done.

The WTC project is moving amazingly fast, them having cleared it all out, brought designs to the public, let them vote, and immediately, when the citizens voiced their dislike for the designs, they went RIGHT back to the drawing board to bring new ones to the city.

There is NO bickering whatsoever. It's called conversation and debating. They are getting a lot done.

Paving a few blocks of street? NYC has 13 MILLION MILES of roadway. Most of it gets chopped up because of a harsh winter, moreos than other cities because we have 8 million people. Yet, NYC starts EVERY winter with nice streets. The DOT is more than competent in removign potholes after every cold season. Get real.

Columbus and 14th? Have you BEEN there lately? Looks pretty bustling to me.

Perhaps when you cast insutls towards a city of 8 million people, you should quote some sources to back up your hot air.

Until then, stick to Medford. That's where NYC sends peopel after we chew them up and spit them out.



Phil Derner Jr.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16859 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (12 years 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2244 times:

I have to strongly disagree,

First JFK has 2 brand new terminals that are really nice (terminal 1 & 4), plus another monster terminal being built to replace AA's 8 & 9. The roadways have been totally rebuilt, new ATC tower, and excellent runway set up. Terminal 7 although a mess now is going to look great when renovations are complete, Jet Blue has terminal 6 busier than it ever has been, and DL's terminal 3 is not that bad considering it's age.

Also JFK's $3 Billion+ Airtrain is opening it's first segement this fall, the inter terminal area and the link to the parking lots and "A" train at Howard Beach. In 2003 it will be operating between Jamaica station and JFK, eventually there will be a one seat ride between NYC and JFK via the Van Wyck row. However this will not be feasible until the LIRR's East Side access project is complete thus opening enough slots at Penn (and or Grand Central) to allow the JFK Air trains to operate to Manhattan.

With regards to LGA, it serves it's purpose well. That is it's a close in regional airport, it's not meant to be anything but a regional airport. Boston, Chicago, Atlanta, Florida, Toronto, Montreal etc..

I think the Port Authority has done an excellent job renovating the main terminal building at LGA, yes it's cramped in the concourses but the core of the building has had it's usefull life extended 30 years with the renovation.

The Marine Air terminal serves it's purpose well and is a nice retro piece of NY aviation history, the US Airways terminal is still amazing 10 years after it opened, the DL terminal is in sorry shape and does need to be replaced or get a serious renovation. But that's DL terminal, and they would rather rebuild Terminal A in BOS then renovate their LGA terminal.

Also eventually the Port Authority and the MTA will extend the N train to LGA, offering an air-rail connection similar to DCA's wildly popular Metro station. 30%-35% of all DCA travellers travel to the Airport via the Metro.

EWR is under going a major renovation too, Continental's Terminal C is really nice. They have extended the usefull life of that terminal, and it's one of NY's best. Terminal B at EWR is undergoing renovation as well, Terminal B has one of the nicest IAB/ FIS halls anywhere. Terminal A will be getting a renovation similar to Terminal B's in the next couple years.

Newark also has a new control tower opening this Spring as well as Air Train which has been operating for a year now, eventually the PA will extend the PATH directly into the Terminal area offering one seat rides to the new WTC.

With regards to capacity the FAA is redrawing the air routes around NYC which should help relieve congestion at all three airports, JFK has a good runway setup. There's no need to add runways at JFK, LGA is a small close-in regional airport. There's no way they would add another runway because all that would do is draw more traffic away from JFK, LGA hurts JFK. Because airlines put all their domestic flights into EWR and LGA leaving JFK as a international gateway rather than a hub.

Newark could use another runway, it's the busiest of the three NY airports and has a poor runway set-up. It has two parrell runways that are too close to allow for simaltaneous arrivals/departures, and it's cross wind runway intersects the two main parrell runways meaning aircraft must wait for traffic to clear before using the runway. Newark is surrounded by the Port of Newark/Elizabeth on one side and a huge area of vacant warehouses along it's Western border.

Newark has the best chance of getting a new runway.

As for new airports if you want to read a good book check out "Empire on the Hudson", a little known fact was that the Port Authority was looking for a long time at building a 4th passenger airport in the Great Swamp in Morris County NJ.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineAirFranceJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 480 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2178 times:

Exactly which old terminals are you talking about at JFK. As I see it, about the only old terminals left are Delta 2/3 and Jet Blue 6, which are both due for reconstruction. 1 and 4 are new, and 7 (which is still pretty new as far as I'm concerned), 8, and 9 are undergoing reconstruction (oh yeh, there is no more old AA terminal, 8 and 9 will be merged into one), while 5 is closed. I'm on the ramp at Terminal 1 and I can tell you, the sight of aircraft on 13R and the adjacent taxiway at 6pm in the evening cannot be compared to. In no airport in the U.S. can anyone see the array of airlines that passes through JFK every evening. Yes, the airport is not a spotters paradise, but when you do finally get to see one of those planes, it makes it all the more worthwhile. By the way, I like the unique layout of JFK, very few airports in the world can boast what we have. Why would we want to have the same old boring lay out at everyone else, come on, its New York, we go by our own rules here.

User currently offlineSkiordie From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (12 years 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2149 times:

I love the discussion and the plans that have been on this thread.

As a long time resident of Queens, $15 cab ride from LGA and JFK, I am pretty dam happy with the level of airline transportation that is with in my reach. New and old terminals will all have their place, some will live and some will be replaced (Eastern's JFK). I love the effort that is being displayed at JFK to make it a 1st class airport. LGA is like every other place in NY, tight, quick when it works, you can get to work right after you land.

I know that everyone that is invoved with the rebuilding of WTC that it will represent New York. Just like it airports.

skiordie


User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (12 years 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2117 times:

BigPhilNYC:

The WTC reconstruction is in the talking stage, nothing more. Talk is cheap, we all know that. Until you see actual construction work begin, I would caution against citing the WTC work as an example of the city's "can-do" spirit (not that there is any such spirit any more...)
There are just too many examples of municipal foot-dragging to ignore. There's the theater-of-the-absurd Second Avenue subway, as I noted. Or the connection of the 63rd Street tunnel to the Queens Boulevard line - it took seven years to dig 1,500 feet of tunnel. And have we forgotten the Manhattan Bridge debacle? Urgent reconstruction work on that decrepit crossing began in 1990 and was supposed to last six months. Twelve years later, there's no end in sight to the project, and meanwhile tens of thousands of subway riders have been inconvenienced each day. Finally, my personal favorite is the sidewalk on the east side of Fifth Avenue near the Empire State Building. The city took over a decade to fix a dip in the sidewalk, despite knowing that it was a hazard to pedestrians and that repairingi it would cost only a few thousand bucks- and in that period, the city paid out several million dollars to injured people.
Get the picture?



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineRai From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (12 years 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2104 times:

I've lived in other cities before. Compared to them, especially of similar size, NYC is remarkabley well-run -- even compared to "model" cities like Toronto (don't get me started there). I think NYC airports are actually really good for comfort and great for connections and a lot better than many other airports in the U.S. and abroad. I just wish the PA would use JFK to it's full potential.

Seems to me that PROSA is living in the dark days of the city when nothing could get done. The Dinkens Administration was a catastrophie. Luckilly we have had some real leadership to straighten all the shit that him and others left before. Things have changed a lot in NY since then and most of them for the better. A lot of work is going into making NYC and its airports more liviable. I think it's working.

As far as FEMA money is concerned, not all of it has been cleared right away. People are still making claims. This is a fact as I still know people working at OMB, who is responsible for making the city's financial claims.

Rai (Seoul, Korea)


User currently offlineBigPhilNYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 4076 posts, RR: 54
Reply 12, posted (12 years 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2090 times:

PROSA, I'd like you to name a city that has NOT had any kind of problems like you mentioned.

You get on the city because of somethign as petty as one sidewalk? Get real.

And yes, the WTC is in the TALKING PHASE. It's been less than a year, so why are you using that as an example of it being fucked up like you did in your first post?

And you're mentioning thigns from back in the day, like Rai said. You're mentioning things that Dinkins hsould have done THENB, but that modern leadership has corrected.

What does the Second Avenue Subway have to do with anything? It is jsut somethig that is being debated, and something that we can't afford right now. What's the problem?

And why do oyu feel that the one organization, the MTA, have a direct reflection on the overview of NYC being a city that gets nothign done?

Why do you expect perfection? Have you BEEN anywhere else? What, can't afford the cost of living of NYC? Did someone in Manhattan turn you down for a job? Why all the petty anger towards NYC?



Phil Derner Jr.
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (12 years 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2043 times:

PROSA, I'd like you to name a city that has NOT had any kind of problems like you mentioned.
You get on the city because of somethign as petty as one sidewalk? Get real.


I brought up the sidewalk issue precisely because it is so petty! A couple of workers could have fixed it in one afternoon. There was plenty of opportunity to do that, as the city knew about the defect for many years. Instead, the repair order was lost in some bureaucratic Twilight Zone for nearly a decade, time enough for tens of injured pedestrians to collect millions of dollars in judgments from the city. That's an example of incompetence run wild. You really expect a city that engages in such moronic behavoir to be able to get any kind of major aviation projects built?

As for the Second Avenue subway, I bring it up because the city's been unable to get it built for over 75 years even though everyone knows it's urgently needed. It's actually been paid for twice, through bond issues, with the money skimmed off for other purposes. That happened most recently in the mid-1970's, when the bond proceeds - which would have triggered the issuance of federal funds several times greater - were used to cover the subway's operational deficits, thereby avoiding the need for a five cent fare increase (which happened soon enough anyway). All the city got out of the bond proceeds were a few disconnected tunnel segments which remain unused and useless today. Meanwhile, yet another generation of East Side residents has to deal with the grossly overcrowded Lexington line, just as their long-deceased ancestors were doing when the promise of the Second Avenue subway was first dangled before their eyes.




"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineBigPhilNYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 4076 posts, RR: 54
Reply 14, posted (12 years 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

Cute how you sitll avoided showing examples of any city that does not have similar prolbems.


Phil Derner Jr.
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