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Whats Up With AAs X-Reno MD-90s?  
User currently offline747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2795 posts, RR: 15
Posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1493 times:

This one looks white? Are they going to go back and 'silverize' it, or are the -90s to be left white? Also - does anyone know how many there are (going to be)?


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Thanks!

-747-600X


"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1205 times:

That's all that there will ever be. No need to silverize them when they will all be withdrawn from service fairly soon.


The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineAA-Ray From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1198 times:

No further changes will be made they will be leaving fairly quickly. And i believe AA has 5 MD-90's

User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3476 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1196 times:

>Are they going to go back and 'silverize' it, or are
>the -90s to be left white?

They will remain white (Reno's previous white area) for the time being. Ultimate decision on what to do with them has not been made. Gradually locking them into SNA-SFO, SJC, RNO and LAS routes. With the exception of SFO, all these stations are -90 maintenance stations and the -90 is so quiet it doesn't use up a noise slot at SNA. The "plan" is to get AA maintenance folks up to speed on how to properly maintain these 5 acft to AA standards.

If AA can schedule a -90 checkairman, I'm supposed to start flying them on 24th. Didn't sound too promising yesterday though. :-(






*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offline747-600X From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2795 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1192 times:

Y'all say they won't be around for long, just where are they going - why'd American take them if they didn't want them?


"Mental health is reality at all cost." -- M. Scott Peck, 'The Road Less Traveled'
User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3476 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1189 times:

>Y'all say they won't be around for long, just where are they going - why'd American take them if they didn't want them?

I didn't say they won't be around for long. If I'd thought of that I wouldn't have bid to fly 'em. <;-)

AA tried selling them to DL, but DL tried selling their MD-90's to AA. Nobody wants them so they're in AA's fleet at least for the time being.

AA "took them" because they came with the Reno Air purchase. AA now owns the leases for the ex-Reno Air aircraft.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineSilverstreak From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 281 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1179 times:

I'm curious to know - why are the MD-90's not wanted by the airlines? Or they going to become orphans (i.e. too expensive to maintain).

User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3476 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1171 times:

> - why are the MD-90's not wanted by the airlines?
>Or they going to become orphans (i.e. too expensive
>to maintain).

1. Difficult to maintain. Basically you've got a DC-9 with a lot of computers watching over the mechanical cable/pulley assemblies. As explained to me; you might be manually rigging to 5/1000th inch tolerance but the computers are set to fault at 2/1000th inch tolerance.

2. The fancy computers are addons to make DC-9 appear more modern. They are not well integrated into the overall scheme of things. Often properly correcting one fault will cause a second computer fault, etc., etc. Then the only way to fix the problem is to completely power down the aircraft (cold iron) and "reboot."

3. Knowledgeable maintenance folks. Few acft create few opportunities for maintenance personnel to gain experience with the aircraft. Its one thing to read and study, it is quite another to an acft and physically handle the thing.

These are the only things I know about so far. I have no direct experience with the actual acft, but if the simulator at MD/Boeing LGB is accurate, the above is also accurate.




*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineCannedSpam From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1165 times:

Unless AA can find a suitor willing to take the MD-90 off AA's hands, it is anticipated they will remain in the fleet for quite awhile due to the leases. Yes, the DL deal did fall through, but I doubt it is the last deal to be floated.

Part of the problem AA has been having with the MX of the MD-90 is based on the availability, or should I say unavailability of parts. For example, during one aircrafts "C" check, it was discovered both engines needed to be replaced. However, NONE were available until the end of January and the aircraft had to sit. Just one example of how the lack of partshas really hurt the MD-90 reliability.

As AAR90 has said, the routes the MD-90 fly on have been narrowed down. AA willnot be flying the MD-90 on LAS, but will be flying only on the SNA-RNO/SFO/SJC routes on on April 2.

As far as slots go, AA can use what are called "A", "AA" and "E" slots. "A" are the noisiest and are typically used by AA's MD-80s. "AA" are more quiet and are used by AA's 757. And the "E" are the most quiet and can only be used only by the MD-90...for now. An MD-80 can use a "AA", but since it can not use full power due to the noise constraints at SNA, there will be a weight restriction imposed.

As AAR90 also mentioned, the MX base for the MD-90 is at SNA. This is the only station where the MD-90 is going to get an "A" and/or "B" check. There are 5 aircraft total in AA's fleet, but that is not to say all five are scheduled at one time.



User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3476 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1151 times:

Feb. schedule had 3 flying and 2 spares.
Mar. schedule has 4 flying and 1 spare.

I'm doing a lot of SNA-RNO-SNA flying in March. Every Wed. and Thurs. afternoon/evening.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineCannedSpam From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1128 times:

April schedule.....4 flying for the first half of the month. 3 flying second half of the month.

User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3476 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 1126 times:

Finished first two days of flying AA MD90's on the west coast. Initial impressions are:

Acft are in relatively good shape maintenance wise. Not yet up to traditional AA maintenance standards, but getting there.

Acft 904 was painted white with Blue/White/Red stripes and "American" decal on fuselage. Tail painted gray with small "AA" decal on vertical stabilizer. Inside is "standard" domestic configuration (i.e. old gray seats etc.). No outstanding maintenance items and none encountered on the two flights I flew.

Acft 901 was painted the same with large "AA with eagle" decal on vertical stabilizer. Inside is "reconfigured" with new interior _and_ removed seating. Passengers and flight attendants _loved_ the extra room! [Cockpit is still too small --darn.] ;-) Multiple outstanding maintenance items on this acft that were not fixed during overnight in SJC.

Only maintenance problem encountered during the 2 day, 9 flight trip was a R-Reverser Fails/R-Eng Fault message on acft 901 that displayed 5 minutes prior to early morning departure from SJC. Maintenance cleared the problem using FMS control panel in about 10 minutes. I described the problem to the passengers as follows:

***If you understand anything about today's fancy computer networks, you can understand what's going on right now. The computer that watches over the right engine isn't talking to the other computers so we've had to call our network administrator (in the form of an AA maintenance technician) to re-boot the computers.***


Personally, I don't like the white paint. Very rough texture and not standard AA livery (but heck, I'm biased and I know it).

56,000# thrust on a 115-130,000# acft is a LOT of POWER! Lot's of "push" whenever you need it and sometimes when you don't need it. Big engine fans cause great drag for descents at high speeds (6,000fpm or more) is you need it. Something not available on standard DC9/MD80.

Acft is very pitch sensitive. Fully powered elevator and pylon flaps give much greater control than standard DC9/MD80.

Outside of the electronic cockpit instrumentation and upgraded systems, its an MD80.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineSJC-Alien From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 919 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1114 times:

Excellent info of this subject, for us non flyer's, thank you.
I film/photo daily at SJC in AM (630am - 740am) until spring...video and print, usually looking for the freighters and the AA white boys, as I figures they won't be around for too long a period,,so thanks for the good input.
As a sideliner(someone without ramp access and a 30yr+ photographer at SJC) I've notice the MD-90 to be very smooth on the take-offs from my vantage point, and since the new parking lot has opened north of the tower at SJC, I've noticed a real smooth humm from the engines as you guys climbout from 30L. IT IS a very quiet plane. I've always thought it to be very reliable, as I rarely see one at the SJC remote area, and if there was, I figured it as a RON(remain over-night) a/c.
When RenoAir had the open house in April 97? when they had the Inaugural MD-90 open house, SJC-SNA, I went to ACM aviation and took the tour.

I've only been in 2 cockpits, once in 1960 at SEA when United had a DC-8 that my dad flew out on when I was 6yr,,and April 97 for the MD-90. The cockpit is small, though I am 6'3" and 300lbs, I qualify most cockpits are small for me  . I was able to video the MD-90 cockpit and it looked very nice. I have no idea how to fly one, but it looked sharp.

One of my questions to you is: Why did the paint "Super 80" titles on all the ex-Reno a/c? the MD-87's and the MD-90's have these titles, up by the cockpit,why'd they do that?

Thanks in advance

SJC-Alien


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3476 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1105 times:

>One of my questions to you is: Why did the paint "Super 80" titles on all the ex-Reno a/c? the MD-87's and the MD-90's have these titles, up by the cockpit,why'd they do that?

All AA MD80's have that decal on the aircraft. Why? I don't know. Why on the ex-Reno birds? I don't know. I just fly 'em. I questioned why the white paint and was told because it was already there, AA does very little painting and none outside Tulsa or Alliance so AA has no paint removal equipment or personnel in Calif. True or not I don't know, but that is what I was told.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineFlygga From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1102 times:

Take a closer look Tom. The MD90's actually say "Super 90"! When they first started painting them, I know there was at least on -90 that said "Super80"



User currently offlineFlygga From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1101 times:

Maybe the MD90's should have "Super Super 80" decals!

User currently offlineSJC-Alien From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 919 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1083 times:

Ha Ha ....."because it's already there,," good one..

I'll check my photos and video's taken from last Sept to current and compare....I remember MD-87 for sure w/Super 80 series,,,,,titles...
did MD make a 'Super 90 series"?

SJC Alien


User currently offlineFlygga From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1079 times:

No I think that is something AA people just made up. I think after they put the first "Super80" decal on an MD90, somebody corrected them. The probably figured since the MD80 was a "Super80", the an MD90 must be a "Super90". Yes you are right about the 87's. They do say "Super80" but after all they are part of the MD80 series.......MD81,82,83,87,88.



User currently offlineCannedSpam From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1069 times:

OK, so the MD-90 is "officially" not part of the MD-80 series, but if you were look into SABRE, you will see the MD-90s being sold as part of the S80s.

User currently offlineDan-air From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1061 times:

AAR90: thanks for the great reading, always interesting to hear an insider's point of view (and I wish I had your job!!!).

Anyhow, my question is, the statements that you made regarding the MD-90's "computers controlling cable/pulleys" and the problems that arise when automation is introduced into a legacy design, would you see the Boeing 717 having the same issues?

Taking it a step further, I would have thought the B747-400 would suffer the same problems with it's cockpit re-work combined with legacy "non FBW" control systems - but I have never read anything suggesting that.


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3476 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 1056 times:

>Anyhow, my question is, the statements that you made regarding the MD-90's "computers controlling cable/pulleys" and the problems that arise when automation is introduced into a legacy design, would you see the Boeing 717 having the same issues?

I expect not. Boeing spends much more time/money than MD ever did considering integrating the total package --including human factors--. MD sold airplanes on price/availability. Boeing sold airplanes on price/availability/reliability. You get what you pay for.

I recall reading once where Boeing had made 15 major design changes to MD95 before they would put their name on it as the B717. These included replacing the entire brake system (a major complaint area with pilots for years), junking the APU for an older heavier more expensive one that worked at all times, and opening up the monitoring system so everything doesn't go thru one box (thereby increasing dependability).

>Taking it a step further, I would have thought the B747-400 would suffer the same problems with it's cockpit re-work combined with legacy "non FBW" control systems - but I have never read anything suggesting that.

I'm probably biased, but my experience leads me to believe that Boeing simply does a better job of integrating the whole package than anybody else.

Evolution not revolution --especially when it's my butt up there. ;-)





*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineDan-air From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 1050 times:

AAR - you are a goldmine of information! I have a new respect for Boeing after reading your last post. I guess I always considered that the US airliner builders designed/manufactured to the highest possible standard - i.e. up to a standard and not down to a price. I have never seen any hint of this stuff in the regular aviation press (and I'm a subscriber to AW&ST).

But considering that certain US carriers have -huge- fleets of MD-80/90 a/c, do the pilots (or chief pilot at least) have any say in the a/c selection process? Or is it all a matter of the bean-counters/creative-finance wizards striking a deal behind closed doors that you guys have to live with?

And on a side note - did McDD use that same cheesy DC-9 blue/green color for the MD-90 instrument panel?


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3476 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 1046 times:

>I have never seen any hint of this stuff in the regular aviation press (and I'm a subscriber to AW&ST).

You asked _my_ opinion, you got _my_ opinion. BTW, I've flown Hawkeyes with broken wing boxes, broken outer wing panels, even tail sections held on with 2 bolts! It wasn't called Grumman Iron Works for nothing. ;-)

>...do the pilots (or chief pilot at least) have any say in the a/c selection process? Or is it all a matter of the bean-counters/creative-finance wizards striking a deal behind closed doors that you guys have to live with?

Yes and yes, at least at AA. B777 purchase with GE engines was pushed heavily by Capt. C.D.Ewell (then chief pilot). He won the more expensive acft decision, but lost the more expensive engine choice.

>And on a side note - did McDD use that same cheesy DC-9 blue/green color for the MD-90 instrument panel?

No (thankfully). At least not on the -90s I've flown to date.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineCannedSpam From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1043 times:

Earlier I said that AA is going to be flying 4 MD-90s the first half of the month and 3 the second half. Let me correct that now. AA will now be flying all five the first half of the month and 4 the second half.

User currently offlineUSAir767 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (14 years 8 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 1048 times:

AA is going to get rid of them

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