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AA Abandons ROC  
User currently offlineLHMark From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 7255 posts, RR: 47
Posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2526 times:

After decades of service, American has pulled out of Rochester, leaving only American Eagle to serve this floundering, rusting city.

That mausoleum-like airport has never looked emptier.

-Mark


"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSeiple From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2505 times:

How unfortunate, but these days money talks. If Rochester was making them tons of money you can bet in this day especially they'd stay.

User currently onlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3466 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2481 times:

Not surprising, all the majors are removing flights from smaller cities and putting regionals on them instead. It's a move that saves money and lets them utilize planes were better suited.

Jeremy


User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2365 times:

When I saw this on the news today, I felt like I got kicked in the balls. AA leaves ROC. UA is talking about leaving KBUF. What a joke Western NY flying is.

User currently offlinePilot1113 From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2333 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2290 times:

You guys still have JetBlue! I wouldn't be that bummed out.

- Neil Harrison


User currently offlineGD727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 925 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2267 times:

It's a shame ROC is loosing service, I just flew in there a couple of weeks ago on Us Airways Express, ROC is a very nice airport, it has a great observation area, hopefully someone will pickup the service AA is leaving.

-GD727



Mmmm forbidden donut.
User currently offlineAmericanF100 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2200 times:

American is finally following in Delta and United's footsteps in removing mainline and replacing with regional service at the smaller cities. A smart move I agree, but it still really dissappoints me. I'm worried about what's gonna happen at MSP with AA getting rid of the Fokker 100 and all, I hope we don't get a bunch of regional stuff instead.

Matt~


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2181 times:

Wow.......in the early-mid 70's, AA actually sked DC-10-10's into ROC. What a come down.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 8, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2093 times:

I highly doubt that AA will switch service to RJs on flights to MSP, if my memory serves me correctly, they are the #2 carrier to MSP (albeit a far #2), by switching to RJ service on ORD-MSP they are just asking UA to take away passengers, especially high-paying business people. Most people would fly a 737 over an RJ any day. The route in terms of connections, is way too valuble to throw an RJ on it. Right now you have hourly service I think to ORD with a mix of 100s and M80s, maybe you can expect M80s leaving about every hour and a half. As for ROC, its about time. That city has been in a hole since the early 80s. My uncle still lives in ROC (for some strange reason unknown to the rest of our family!), and I usually go up there to visit him and catch a Sabers game in Buffalo. I dont think I have ever been on a half-full flight, no matter which carrier, AA, UA, US, DL...they are always empty. ROC really deserved what was coming to it, and hopefully the city will realize the mess that they have created in the city. The bottom line is that ROC was unable to convert from a blue-collar city to a city with commercial life after the 70s. Detroit did it, Cleveland did it, Pittsburgh too, Buffalo to a certain extent...but the rust belt still thrives in good ol' Rochester and the city suffers for it today. But I too will miss the F100, it was probably my favorite A/C for some reason, I guess I just liked the quirkiness of it.


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4493 posts, RR: 33
Reply 9, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2084 times:

ROC really deserved what was coming to it, and hopefully the city will realize the mess that they have created in the city. The bottom line is that ROC was unable to convert from a blue-collar city to a city with commercial life after the 70s. Detroit did it, Cleveland did it, Pittsburgh too, Buffalo to a certain extent.

What planet are you living on? Rochester has always been primarily a tech, white-collar city, as those of us who have lived there know. Kodak, Xerox, and Bausch & Lomb are the major employers. They are surrounded by many small tech companies, and the University of Rochester's medical school and hospital is becoming a big employer.

Don't talk about what you don't know. I wouldn't even bother responding to your uninformed nonsense, but there are people at the forum who are unfamiliar with Upstate New York. They might get the wrong impression if someone didn't set the record straight.

AA's move is foolish. Their scope clause straitjackets their RJ fleet badly. These a/c can operate high-yield business-center routes like the RDU focus city. AA has been developing such high-yield RJ niche routes for over a year. Why they're wasting six high-CASM roundtrip RJ segments on Rochester, when they could run 3 daily MD-80's to the ORD "rolling hub," is beyond me.

If the Cartel doesn't want to provide Rochester with sufficient air service for our market (and six RJ's to ORD by a hub carrier is *not* sufficient for that market), someone with lower costs will. The demand is there, the fares simply need to be reasonable enough to draw it out. Rochester businesses, like businesses everywhere, are in revolt against propping up the Cartel's high cost structure.

AirTran, by all accounts I read, is prospering at ROC. All the FL flights I've taken there have been 85-95 percent full. They'll probably be third-largest carrier behind JetBlue soon, if they aren't already. If UA is considering downgrading BUF to RJ's, you can bet they're considering the same at ROC. That simply makes ROC all the riper for Southwest--poor service to Chicago, and that big new MDW terminal opening up.

Jim



User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 10, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2052 times:

Yeah! Kodak! Xerox! High-tech....hardly. Thriving...hardly. Your entire post illustrated my point on why ROC doesnt have AA mainline service. 80% of businesses travel mostly on full-service airlines. True. The average businessman favors convienience and FFPs above fare. True. Now, by saying that FL and JB are 2 and 3 behind US just ruined your arguement. What does that tell me? That either businesses are really cheap in Rochester or that there is not much business travel going on. The latter is the case and it is shown by the success of lowfare carriers at ROC. The average leisure flyer could care less about convienience and instead just wants to get there cheap. Do you actually think that Don Carty cared about what the residents of Crapchester (as Jim Rome refers to it as) thought about AA? No, he couldnt care less, because he knows that the money on the route is not coming from Rochester travelers, it is coming from inbound passengers. He knows that he will not be able to compete with USs northeast network for business travelers, and in terms of leisure travelers...who cares, let them fly for peanuts on FL or JB, they wouldnt help AA pay many bills.


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2011 times:

AA's move is foolish

Sorry, I agree. You don't know the financial or operational analysis that went into this decision. Whatever the reason, they deemed ROC unworthy of mainline service. Airlines rarely drop profitable markets.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2002 times:

Jcs17. Again, don't talk about what you don't know. For starters, low fare airlines are not attracting more and more business travelers as companys strive to save money in this economy. Given the product jetBlue and Airtran offer (New planes, good service ect) the lack of a meal and a couple inch wider seat, is no big deal. In Western NY, Buffalo and Syracuse considered blue-collar cities, and Rochester is considered a white collar city.

As for US getting business travelers? Hardly. With US's bancruptcy proceedings, flights to and from ROC are being cut down, leaving a gaping hole ripe for an airline to fill.

Anyway Jcs. You can't be too bad a guy, since you listen to my man Jim Rome. Just know what you are talking about. If I wanted to start slinging crap about Dallas, I could, because I actually lived there for a few ticks.......


User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2535 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days ago) and read 1950 times:

I have to agree with DCA-ROCguy. Show me the DL flight that is half full. Getting into ROC or SYR nonrev is almost impossible. If I want to go home for the weekend to visit I'm looking for the flight the least oversold to try to get on. Somebody is buying those seats in first so it's not only low fare traffic.

AA also cut service to SYR. Thier yeild in this market can't be much off from DL. I'm not privy to the DL numbers but I fly on this route enough to have a good make up of the usual mix. On Thrus, Fri, Sun, Mon these flights tend to be very full. They fill up within the last few days, so there must be some high yield tickets being sold. Anyone who has bought a ticket into this market knows the lowest ticket on the plane isn't a real deal compared to what exists in other markets. What does this mean to me? AA is in worse shape than they are leading us to believe. The TWA merger is killing them. Mark my words they are the next to fall.


User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4493 posts, RR: 33
Reply 14, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days ago) and read 1944 times:

Yeah! Kodak! Xerox! High-tech....hardly. Thriving...hardly. Your entire post illustrated my point on why ROC doesnt have AA mainline service. 80% of businesses travel mostly on full-service airlines. True. The average businessman favors convienience and FFPs above fare.

I didn't say they were thriving, but they are our economic base. Again, you just show your ignorance, because these companies employ high numbers of engineering and tech people, and give Rochester even in weak times an above-average per capita income. Whatever burr you have up your bum about Rochester, take it elsewhere. BTW, Rochester has AA mainline for another five months.

Again, AA's high cost structure made it apparently not worth their while to continue here...fine, let someone else who doesn't need to gouge us, provide service. American Eagle will ensure we stay hooked into the AA network, for those who need it.

Now, by saying that FL and JB are 2 and 3 behind US just ruined your arguement. What does that tell me? That either businesses are really cheap in Rochester or that there is not much business travel going on. The latter is the case and it is shown by the success of lowfare carriers at ROC. The average leisure flyer could care less about convienience and instead just wants to get there cheap.

Low-fare carriers are on the rise everywhere, with business as well as leisure travelers. Business travelers everywhere are being told to cut their costs or stay home. A systemic change is underway in the airline industry. ROC's mainline AA service is one of the victims; this is happening at a lot of medium-size cities.

Businesses all over the place are asking, why should we pay $1600 walkup to the west coast when a low-fare carrier offers it for $600? $500 walkup to New York when a low-fare carrier offers it for $200? Call it "cheap" if you like, they call it good business sense.

Yes, I don't know the economic analysis papers AA did in their decision. However, it is quite fair to extrapolate from the airline's own broader business decisions, and suggest that this one doesn't seem to fit. Whatever.


User currently offlineB727 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 521 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days ago) and read 1930 times:

AA is doing this with a lot of cities, Syracuse is also been down-graded to American Eagle service. I will continue to fly jetBlue to keep them in our city.


B727
Glenn


User currently offlineSeiple From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days ago) and read 1922 times:

I guarantee that the low-fare carriers alone cannot support the business travel in Rochester. People still need to go places that aren't major cities.

User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days ago) and read 1906 times:

AA is abandoning mainline service to all of upstate New York. I don't think AA necessarily wants to do this but scope clause restrictions, plummeting yields and a weak economy are forcing AA into this position.

I still believe that part of the problem is Upstate New York's. Usually when low-fare carriers enter markets it stimulates demand and even the "Cartel Carriers" add service....aka the "Southwest Effect." We've seen it in places like PVD, MHT,etc. However, since AAI,WN and JBLU arrived in Upstate New York....all that has happened is a rapid bailout of the majors. Part of it is of course the economy and hassle of air travel, but I think part of it is the unhealthy state of Upstate New York's economy.


User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5632 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days ago) and read 1869 times:

I still believe that part of the problem is Upstate New York's. Usually when low-fare carriers enter markets it stimulates demand and even the "Cartel Carriers" add service....aka the "Southwest Effect." We've seen it in places like PVD, MHT,etc. However, since AAI,WN and JBLU arrived in Upstate New York....all that has happened is a rapid bailout of the majors. Part of it is of course the economy and hassle of air travel, but I think part of it is the unhealthy state of Upstate New York's economy.

Could be ... on the other hand, Upstate's economy has been in the toilet for many years. Its woes long pre-date the arrival of the discounters and the pullout of the majors.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 19, posted (11 years 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1854 times:

I really dont have anything against Rochester, and I really think it is a shame the way the city has kind of deteriorated. Rochester is a pretty nice place (except in the Feburary!), and it is a shame because the schools in the area are excellent and there are some really nice parts of the city (Park Ave., Pittsford, etc.). I just feel that AA was justified by taking out mainline service at ROC, just by the fact that much of their traffic was not ROC originating and they didnt need to attract business in ROC by keeping main-line service. This has happened in a lot of cities, where local traffic was low enough where the mainline sees no reason to attract traffic with the mainline fleet. KROC, as for Dallas, I actually like it here, and I am not a huge fan of the southeast US. Yeah, the airport sucks, and traffic sucks, but it beats Atlanta by a mile. I'm 19 and have grown up in 8 cities, and Dallas makes the top 4 probably. And I take back that statement I made earlier about the half-full flights, I actually was on a packed flight in December (during the huge blizzard) from ATL-ROC on DL.


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1824 times:

Jcs. I would campare Dallas and Atlanta to each other favorably. As for Crapchester deteriorating, I hate to break it to you, but Rochester has been improving for years. Revitalization projects, new transportation options, ect are all prt of it. I think if you actually were in the area more than Just visiting now and then, you would see the inaccuracies of your statements. Granted, KROC is far from a booming city, but for a mid-size city, it can hold its own.

As for flights, and AA not getting the business they needed, that is wrong as well. The last few times I have flown out of here, it has been on AA. The MD-80's were all full. Rochester has plenty of business travelers, and they will still need to fly somewhere. I would love to see Northwest make more of a presence here. Like Dalmd88 said, Delta flights have very high yields, as to Airtrans. Even the main cartel here, US still has good business. Something isn't "right" about AA leaving. KROC is now ripe for Southwest and or another airline making a larger presence here.


User currently offlineGr8slvrflt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1599 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (11 years 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1814 times:

On the subject of Rochester, does anyone know why the local busses are painted in the current US Airways paintscheme? Is this just a coincidence?

User currently offlineBUFJets From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (11 years 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1811 times:

I'm not an airline operations expert. However, I'm looking at it like this: ROC demand is currently filled with F-100's and ERJ's. Since we all know the F100's are going away, AA can either put some MD-80's on the route or it can add more ERJs. They probably looked at demand and figured out using MD-80's would leave empty MD-80's (no good these days) or they would have to reduce the number of flights from ROC to ORD. Reducing the number of flights offered is not good with many business travelers and is inefficient for the AA employees stationed at ROC.

If AA had 717's, they'd probably use those to ROC in place of the F100, but since they don't, they found the ERJ to be a better replacement than the MD-80.

FYI- I'm one of those Buffalo blue collar people who actually prefer the ERJ over the F100. Some of us blue collar people still fly quite a bit.



User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 23, posted (11 years 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1793 times:

Midtown Mall? Talk about thriving! Rochester has done some things since the mid 90s that have improved downtown (High Falls, renovating the War Memorial, Frontier Field), but in terms of office leasing in the city, its struggling at best. As I said before though, most of the people on the ORD-ROC-ORD flights are not Rochester passengers and AA just cannot compete with US for local traffic with the sole ROC-ORD flights. The only way local ROC passengers go through ORD on AA is to fly to Chicago, the west coast, or the midwest, and some parts of the southeast. But for a frequent flyer out of ROC, AA cannot compete with US. I guarantee you that the businessman is not connecting in ORD to go to BOS. For convience's sake AA just cannot compete for local traffic like US can, especially for the easy connections in the northeast. Delta can do well in Rochester with business because they have flights to 2 hubs...CVG and ATL, and I would be shocked if DL pulled their mainline out of ROC, however AA pulling it is not suprising at all.


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineDouglasDC8 From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (11 years 11 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1771 times:

Dalmd88,

Above you posted the following comment about flights to Rochester. "They fill up within the last few days, so there must be some high yield tickets being sold." Two years ago I would have agreed with you 100%. Today I'm wondering if these last minute purchases are being made via Priceline.com, Delta's own website, and other internet sources. My guess is that there are more discounted fares than we suspect.


25 DCA-ROCguy : As I said before though, most of the people on the ORD-ROC-ORD flights are not Rochester passengers and AA just cannot compete with US for local traff
26 Jcs17 : KROC- "Tour stop number 27 goes to Crapches....errr! Sacramento!" Anyway, more on ROC. It is actually a fairly complex market, which is rare for a cit
27 LHMark : Terry Slaybaugh is one of the few public figures in ROC that I admire. The poor guy's always taking one step forward and two steps back. He works his
28 Seiple : Jim: Your points about the lack of westbound low-fare competition are completely valid. Thus, this leads me to think the obvious conclusion and reason
29 KROC : Jcs....I missed the Sactown Tour Stop announcment, but I still am not over the last tour stop where he went "And Tour Stop #27 goes to Cra-Cra-Cra-DEN
30 PSU.DTW.SCE : Yeahm you guys got to hand it to NW....while all the other guys are flying RJ's right and left to Upstate NY, NW still has a huge mainline presence. T
31 AirOne : It is too bad AA has left. But what ever happened to that Onieda Air planned start-up. Wasn't it supposed to be based in upstate NY with its hubs in R
32 DCA-ROCguy : Transportation options? KROC, I'd like to think you were right, but ROC victimizes itself by talking out its ass about all these barely grandiose proj
33 Post contains images Jcs17 : KROC-- I think that Crapchester will eventually get a tour stop, Van Smack has been tormenting you guys way too long not to get one. Will Buffalo clon
34 Post contains images LHMark : So, for the most part, we agree. We should look at AA's service interruptus not as a setback, but as the best opportunity to date for attracting WN. (
35 DCA-ROCguy : I think that the companies of ROC ought to stop saturating the city with engineers and maybe move some corporate stuff up there. The problem is that t
36 BUFJets : I went to AA's website and looked at their schedule for March 2003. It still shows F100 service from ROC to ORD. Also, there is nothing in a press rel
37 FlyPNS1 : BUFJets, AA hasn't redone schedules that far in advance. Just have to be patient. As for WN in ROC...maybe but I don't know if it will happen in the n
38 Jetskipper : It's funny to watch you guys fight over airline service, you believe that mainline service is a direct result of how much pride you have in your home
39 Rai : Taxes absolutely are a problem. Thank Downstate for that. Taxes in New York State would be much lower if Upstate had anything to say about it. And if
40 Jcs17 : Jetskipper: Getting rid of mainline service is huge, do you think people are dumb enough not to realize that their F100 has been replaced with an RJ?
41 SegmentKing : in Minnie, AA is doing aweful on the MSP/ORD flights. UA and NW owns the MSP-CHI market. AA is just there for marketing presence.... so don't be shock
42 Post contains images United_Fan : Didn't Eagle leave ROC after 9/11 ? I also remember reading an article with A^A bragging that Eagle hasn't been used in place of mainline a.k.a Atlan
43 LHMark : Who said anything about taking pictures? I'm worried about a downgrade in my transportation options. Negative trends are bad. I'm worried about airlin
44 PROSA : AA's move demonstrates a lack of confidence by the airline in the future of the upstate NY market (It's happening in ROC, SYR, and ALB as well), and a
45 The Rock : I understand that BUF has also been abandoned as of 2/03
46 N628AU : DCA-ROC Guy, You put too much into the value of CASM measurements, as do those who want to stop more RJs from operating (Big Labor for one). CASM is h
47 FATFlyer : While Jetskipper is correct that the airlines will lose no sleep over dropping mainline at a city, its more than civic pride. There are studies out th
48 United_Fan : I think that people are mad that the world's biggest airline makes our city look second class . Funny how DL can fill up 727's but A^A can't fill up
49 MAH4546 : I guess this kills any chance of a ROC-DFW Not at all. BUF-DFW is going American Eagle.
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