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Alitalia To Choose B763 Or A332 (and Others News)  
User currently offlineAirblue From San Marino, joined May 2001, 1825 posts, RR: 11
Posted (11 years 12 months 15 hours ago) and read 4863 times:

It was reported by press that Alitalia besides the new B772 is looking to choose if keeping and upgrading the current B763 fleet or buying the A330/200.

Alitalia said that with the new B772 a new era is starting for them. After years of big losses, finally Alitalia thanks to the new B772 is planning to make their long-haul operations profitable like for competitors. The AZ CEO Mr. Mengozzi said that in a time when the competition on short haul flights is becoming harder day by day, the only way to give a future to Alitalia, is to invest on long haul network.

It's sure that B777/200ER (with maybe B777/300ER) will be the larger and most important aircraft for Alitalia long haul operations in the next years.
Since MDD-11 will leave soon, Alitalia wants standardize its long haul fleet with only two planes type: B777 (200 and 300) for longest and high load routes and B763 or A332 for thin routes.

But for thin long-haul routes they hasn't decided yet if keeping the current all leased B763 fleet or buying the A330/200.(like AF did last year)
A final decision should arrive before next summer.

Let's see what they decide.

***
Alitalia in partnership with Volare Airlines after the success of Milan BGY flights last August is talking with the SABCO (Bergamo Airport Company) to start 5 daily flights to FCO and others flights to NAP, CTA, BRI and PMO.

***
AirOne asked to Italian anti-trust to investigate about the new code-sharing deal between Alitalia and Volare Group

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1381 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (11 years 12 months 15 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

Thanks Airblue,
yet another good news from our slowly rising flag carrier.

I hope they will soon convert into firm orders the options they have for the 777-300ER as well as adding more orders for the 777-200Er.
As we know AZ has 6 firm orders for 777-200ER, six options for 777-300ER and six more rolling options for unspecified versions (most likely -200ER). This could bring a total of 18 B777s of which at least 6 of the larger version (which is not a big 4 engined like the 747 or the A380 but what can we pretend form AZ?).

Between the 767 and the A330-200 I would opt for the latter with a leasing arrangement. But I think that AZ would need no less than 12 examples which is a considerable investment. (maybe our French cousin could give us a hand?).
We must also remember that the current 767s are not of the most recent version with 777's style interiors or modern IFE like PTVs. If they decide to keep and implement the current fleet they should also consider the necessary investment to upgrade it (on leased rather than owned planes moreover).

If they want to reestablish Alitalia as one of the leading international carrier in the post 9/11 scenario, they can't go on with 20 long haul planes splitted between FCO and MXP.

12/16 A330-200s and 18/20 B777s would give AZ the necessary strength to operate an extensive long haul network from both Milan and Rome and still be competitive.

Ciao

Stefano


User currently offlineDaV From Italy, joined Jun 2001, 669 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (11 years 12 months 14 hours ago) and read 4717 times:

Great news! I still hope they'll go for the A332, with a good load of goods the flights should be much more profitable (esp. in the Asian and American market). I think the closer relationship between AF and AZ will bring the 332 to AZ in the end, the same for the B773, wich would be great for JFK/NRT market from both MXP and FCO.
Anybody knows if has been already decided the deadline for the Md11's retirement?

DaV



Two monologues do not make a dialogue
User currently offlineSteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1381 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (11 years 12 months 13 hours ago) and read 4701 times:

You are right DaV,
I forgot to mention the better cargo performances of the A332.
If we consider that a large part of the AZ cargo traffic is handled by its 5 MD-11Combis and that they are going to be retired.....

By the way, wouldn't be a wise move to convert some of the Combis into full freighter (and we already have Aeronavali in Venice to do the job) to obtain an unexpensive boost of the Cargo division fleet?

Ciao

Stefano


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12435 posts, RR: 37
Reply 4, posted (11 years 12 months 13 hours ago) and read 4685 times:

Remember that AZ's charter subsidiary, Eurofly, is now a 332 operator, so AZ will be in a position to look at the type in action.

AZ has some of the world's longest 767 routes, such as those to Japan and (at one stage) to SFO; it could certainly do with the 332's range, superior freight capacity and commonality benefits, with the 32X fleet. My money is on the 332.

Strangely, I was looking at the OAG last night, amused that in 2002, AZ is flying 763s from FCO to JFK, whereas in 1971, they'd have flown 747s!


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 45
Reply 5, posted (11 years 12 months 12 hours ago) and read 4591 times:

Personally, I'd love to see AZ retrofit their 763's or purchase new ones. The aircraft do need IFE systems (PTVs, etc). These aircraft, although smaller, have allowed AZ to weather the storm as of late.

And not flaming Airbus here, but I don't want too many of them in the fleet. A nice mixed fleet is always cool.

I say AZ goes:
777-200/300
767-300
A319/A320/A321
ERJ 135/140/145

Leaving just 3 mainline fleet types and 1 express type....C'mon Alitalia!

@KaiTak
At one point, AZ operated 3 747's a day into JFK, 2 from FCO and 1 from MXP. And today we have an MD-11 and a 763. Sad to see the 747's gone, but times have changed. Even LH is flying smaller aircraft into JFK (A340's vs. 747s) and only one 744 flight a day...

While we're on the subject of AZ, I love their new website! I can't wait for the day when Alitalia is a premier Long-Haul carrier again! Ali d'Italia!



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineF.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1523 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (11 years 12 months 8 hours ago) and read 4452 times:

I hope them to buy some 330. I think they're much more modern than 767 and they can perfectly fit in their fleet.

They would also be well integrated with Air France fleet.


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 12 months 7 hours ago) and read 4374 times:

The A332 would fit well. They use the B763 on really long flights (Sao Paulo, San Francisco, Tokyo) and therefore have to face payload restrictions. The A332 offers more cargo capacity and can easily fly these routes.

Even if they choose to introduce more B763s on the short term, they will go for the A332 on the long term. There's just no alternative, the B764 lacks of range.


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineKFRG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 12 months 5 hours ago) and read 4302 times:

F.pier....."I hope them to buy some 330. I think they're much more modern than 767 and they can perfectly fit in their fleet." Just curious here, what exactly do you mean by "much more modern"?

Udo,
Many EU airlines have been flying B767's on the routes mentioned (Specifically charter airlines) and have done so successfully. And I doubt very much that AZ would order B764's, with the B777's in the fleet, seating capacity is too close to warrant their introduction..(Even more so with the A332). Mabye AZ will stay neutral with the B777 and continue with the B767-300(ER) fleet.

-Tom


User currently offlineUsairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3402 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (11 years 12 months 5 hours ago) and read 4266 times:

are they going to add any North American destinations any time soon?

User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (11 years 12 months 5 hours ago) and read 4279 times:

Maybe he means 'more range at a higer payload' with more modern.

And the B777 and A332 don't exclude each other. Flying them with three classes there's a difference of about 50 seats. Air France and Emirates, both very successful show how it works. KLM is just another example.
Charter airlines don't carry much cargo and therefore are not faced with restrictions that often. Though it was the charter airlines who started to introduce the A332 first (LTU, Monarch, JMC, Airtours, Air Transat). And you are wrong when you write that more European carriers use the B763 on routes I mentioned. Only Alitalia uses a B763 on a 13,5 hours flight.
The A332 is hot in its class, and neither the B763 nor the B764 can match it.


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineF.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1523 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (11 years 12 months 4 hours ago) and read 4272 times:

They should replace Los Angeles and San Francisco.

Those flights were full, but without the 742s AZ didn't have enough long range planes to fly those routes.

I think their MD11s shouldn't leave the fleet until AZ will have all the long range fleet delivered, because they're still young and they really don't need to be replaced.

14-15 777 and 10-11 330s (to replace MD11s) would make Alitalia really competitive and it would be able to reach a lot of profitable routes, like America (north and south), the far east and if I were in the CEO I'd reintroduce a flight to Australia, maybe once a week.

They would fill a 777 to Sydney and it would be the beginning of a new era in European air transportation, because I think that Australia is too important to be forgotten.


User currently offlineKFRG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 12 months 4 hours ago) and read 4259 times:

"And the B777 and A332 don't exclude each other. Flying them with three classes there's a difference of about 50 seats. Air France and Emirates, both very successful show how it works. KLM is just another example.
Charter airlines don't carry much cargo and therefore are not faced with restrictions that often. Though it was the charter airlines who started to introduce the A332 first (LTU, Monarch, JMC, Airtours, Air Transat). And you are wrong when you write that more European carriers use the B763 on routes I mentioned. Only Alitalia uses a B763 on a 13,5 hours flight.
The A332 is hot in its class, and neither the B763 nor the B764 can match it."


Ok, as I said, for larger aircraft like the B767/A330/B777, I doubt 50 seats would warrant it, unless they have a niche for it. If you look at it, it's mostly charter airlines flying both A330 and B767 on these routes, so you really can't judge. A good example, Varig operates B767's to the EU. And no I am not wrong, LTU, Monarch, JMC, Airtours, Condor, etc. all operate, or have operated B767's on those routes.
Your last statement makes little sense. If you took the time to think about it, both B767 and A330, although similiar aircraft, both operate at their max potential in different markets. And you have to be joking if you say that the B767 is not "hot in it's class" anyway, just look at how much it's done for Boeing, and the airlines it serves.

-Tom


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 45
Reply 13, posted (11 years 12 months 4 hours ago) and read 4241 times:

I have a feeling Great things will be happening to Alitalia!

HopefullY!

Great thread guys.

g



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineAirblue From San Marino, joined May 2001, 1825 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4079 times:

Air France B777/200ER has 271 seats Vs. 211 seats for their new A330/200.

I think 60 seats is a huge difference, so they aren't so close as wrote before and they could fill good in the same fleet.

And for an airlines like AZ who flies a lot of cargo (they have 5 MDD-11 Combi), the extra cargo capacity means more profits.


User currently offlineF.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1523 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4071 times:

I think that 2 different types of aicraft for the same use is too much expensive and it's much more cheaper using a single type of aircraft.

User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3975 times:

Sure, the B763 has done much for airlines and Boeing but the current order situation just shows that airlines go for the A332, and in most cases the A332 replaces B763. Sorry, it's a fact. Airlines which operate both are only doing it for a certain time, until the A332 are delivered. Having both makes as much sense as operating A320s along with B738s.
The A332 is hot, there are many carriers which directly replace the B763 with A332s. The B763 was hot for a long time, but orders have rapidly slowed down.

I know Varig operates long routes with the B763, but I was only refering to European airlines (as you did first).
It's also a fact that both airliners carry about the same number of passengers (very little difference), but the A332 offers more range, with a larger cargo capacity, at a higher payload. The B763 serves well its market, but the A332 can also serve the same market and some new markets additionally. Best example for the aircraft's flexibility is Air France: the aircraft is flown on shorter six hour routes to West Africa, but also on 12 hour routes to Sao Paulo, the latter without any payload restrictions. No B763 can operate on such flights with full payload.
Boeing had the chance to offer a B764 with similar range as the A332 but they didn't, and that's why airlines don't order it. Even Continental does not opererate it from Houston to Europe because it can become critical. And Delta? Only domestic service. And without modifications we won't see the B764 operate longer EU services (such as Rome) out of ATL.


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24928 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3934 times:

KFRG said:
And no I am not wrong, LTU, Monarch, JMC, Airtours, Condor, etc. all operate, or have operated B767's on those routes.

Find some proof that LTU,Monarch and JMC have ever operated the 767 please?  Big grin



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineKFRG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3925 times:

"Sure, the B763 has done much for airlines and Boeing but the current order situation just shows that airlines go for the A332, and in most cases the A332 replaces B763. Sorry, it's a fact. Airlines which operate both are only doing it for a certain time, until the A332 are delivered. Having both makes as much sense as operating A320s along with B738s.
The A332 is hot, there are many carriers which directly replace the B763 with A332s. The B763 was hot for a long time, but orders have rapidly slowed down."


Yeah, I guess your right, just look at CO, DL, AA, UA, AC, RAM, ANA, JAL, HA, Kenya, etc.... One carrier that operates both aircraft for different missions is AC, for the time there is a need for an aircraft of it's size, and the B767 is the only aircraft available on the market. I am not argueing with you that B767 orders have decreased over the past few years, but it's understandable. The major airlines who operate the B767 already have a substancial number of the type in their fleet, which have not reached the age of retirement. It's called a plateau, and when the time comes for replacement, I expect B767 orders to pick up (Mabye we will see increased interest in the B764 by that time).

"I know Varig operates long routes with the B763, but I was only refering to European airlines (as you did first).
It's also a fact that both airliners carry about the same number of passengers (very little difference), but the A332 offers more range, with a larger cargo capacity, at a higher payload. The B763 serves well its market, but the A332 can also serve the same market and some new markets additionally."


And can you explain ot me why we don't see many A330's running US Trans-Con's then? This is the B767's best market! It's designed exactly for this type of flying. Try operating A332's on those routes and you won't see the same results.

"Best example for the aircraft's flexibility is Air France: the aircraft is flown on shorter six hour routes to West Africa, but also on 12 hour routes to Sao Paulo, the latter without any payload restrictions. No B763 can operate on such flights with full payload.
Boeing had the chance to offer a B764 with similar range as the A332 but they didn't, and that's why airlines don't order it. Even Continental does not opererate it from Houston to Europe because it can become critical. And Delta? Only domestic service. And without modifications we won't see the B764 operate longer EU services (such as Rome) out of ATL."


No payload restrictions? Have a look..... http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/pf/pf_rc_rio.html

I really don't understand what you are trying to get at. The B767-400(ER) was intended to fulfill a DL requirement as an L1011 replacement. It was not built to be the world's longest ranged aircraft, but to satisfy current B767 operators. DL does not intend, and I don't believe has ever intended to operate these aircraft overseas! And while Boeing was designing the aircraft, CO took a look and liked what they say. And BTW, CO loves the B764 on their EU routes.
CO uses it's B762's and B772's out of IAH. Why does everyone on this board believe that for an aircraft to be great, it has to have more and more range than the competition? And remember here, the B764(ER) was not a completely new design, but a new submodel of an existing series, therefore not putting an amount of pressure on Boeing to achieve great sales.


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3823 times:

-Wrong, AC operates the A333, not the A332. AC also only operated six B763 when they ordered the A330, they had the intention to replace the B763. Then they took over Canadian and got about 20 B763. It's clear that they don't replace a fleet of nearly 30 aircraft now.
-Well, some current B763 operators may order B764s but many airlines have already decided to go for the A330. Examples were already mentioned several times.
-Why aren't so many A330s running transcontinental? Because the aircraft was not available, as you just said right...and the B767 could enter a new market without a competitor. Certainly the A332 could do the transcons well, its operating costs are similar to the B763, but it additionally offers more cargo space and that means more revenue. By the way, if you think the B767 is the US transcon airliner number one, you are totally wrong. Sure, AA, UA and DL fly the B767 transcon, but the majority of flights is done by B757s, B737NG or A320s. That's the truth. If you don't believe me, have a look at some timetables.
-What am I trying to get? I want to show that the A332 offers more flexibility than the B763. The B763 and the B764 are clearly limited in range and payload, the A332 is not. And I think it was quite stupid to develop an aircraft only for two airlines...only some more range and the B764 would have been a real A332 competitor. Boeing can call is what they want, they are lacking of orders and that counts.
-The A332 is also a subdesign, it is a two-engined A342 with the A343's fuel capacity.
-You don't need to give me a Boeing link to back your words...before I believe what manufacturers say, I would believe in little green men on the Mars.


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineBackfire From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3770 times:

GKirk:

LTU used to have several 767-300ERs in its fleet.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stephan Tophoven



Proof enough? At least on the German front?


User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7370 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3747 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!


I'm sure Monarch were going to lease a pair of 767-300s but decided against it, with the aircraft going to Eva Air instead.

David


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3694 times:

I think AZ will likely order the A330-200, too.

The reason is simple: the 6,500 nautical mile maximum range. That is more than enough to fly MXP-SFO/LAX or MXP-NRT easily; mind you, I think AZ will more likely deploy the 777-200ER on these routes, since MXP is a very popular business and tourist destination.


User currently offlineKFRG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

" -Well, some current B763 operators may order B764s but many airlines have already decided to go for the A330. Examples were already mentioned several times.
-Why aren't so many A330s running transcontinental? Because the aircraft was not available, as you just said right...and the B767 could enter a new market without a competitor. Certainly the A332 could do the transcons well, its operating costs are similar to the B763, but it additionally offers more cargo space and that means more revenue. By the way, if you think the B767 is the US transcon airliner number one, you are totally wrong. Sure, AA, UA and DL fly the B767 transcon, but the majority of flights is done by B757s, B737NG or A320s. That's the truth. If you don't believe me, have a look at some timetables."


Oh man, I keep on reaping myself over and over, but you still go on with this garbage....
Hey, take a look at the A330, it's too heavy for US TransCon routes! The B767 is perfect, and face it, even if the A330 was available at the time, we would still see the majority, if not all of the US Majors ordering B767's.
What, do you think the whole world revolves around Toulouse?
And BTW, the B767-300 has lower general operating costs than the A330 (Any series for that matter). I will let a man of your caliber to look that one up yourself.

"Sure, AA, UA and DL fly the B767 transcon, but the majority of flights is done by B757s, B737NG or A320s." Wow, you really contradicted yourself in that statement.

"What am I trying to get? I want to show that the A332 offers more flexibility than the B763. The B763 and the B764 are clearly limited in range and payload, the A332 is not. And I think it was quite stupid to develop an aircraft only for two airlines...only some more range and the B764 would have been a real A332 competitor. Boeing can call is what they want, they are lacking of orders and that counts.
-The A332 is also a subdesign, it is a two-engined A342 with the A343's fuel capacity.
-You don't need to give me a Boeing link to back your words...before I believe what manufacturers say, I would believe in little green men on the Mars."


Wrong! Neither offers more flexibility than each other. For airlines, such as DL or AA, the B767 is the clear choice. But take an airline like Qatar Airways, and I can see why they chose the A330. Quite stupid to develop the B764? Do you hold some degree in business? Or have you ever managed a major aircraft corporation?
Sorry, the A330-200 is not a part of the A340-200 series.

Goodbye......


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3556 times:

Ok, now that you are out of arguments, you are starting to become nasty? Calling my words garbage is quite arrogant, taking into consideration that you only state personal opinions while I rely on facts. That's not my level of discussion.

- The A330 is not too heavy for US transcons. Check some neutral sources and you see that both the A332 and the B763 have similar operating costs. However, the A332 offers some additional seats and more cargo space. That's what many CEOs already have said, but we know, it's garbage.
Your theory is only ridiculous. If any plane heavier than the B767 was not economical to operate, so airlines like UA would be quite dumb with their many domestic B777 services...
- I have never said or thought that the world revolves around TLS. You are just talking bull and show once more you are not to be taken serious. If you knew the forum well you would know that I well like Boeing products such as the B777 and B757. I even prefer the B777 any time over the A340 classic. Sorry pal, another step in the toilet.
- I will try again to explain what flexibility with regards to the A332 means. Air France is an airline which has quite short long hauls to Africa and the Middle East, but also very distant long hauls like Latin America. AF uses the A332 well on both markets, five hours to Niamey and 12 hours to Sao Paulo. All routes highly economical, without restrictions. Sure they used their B763 to Africa, but Sao Paulo was out of range. Before the A332 they had to use a B777 to GRU which was a bit large. The A332 now just is the perfect aircraft, showing its wide flexibility. Their CEO expressed exactly that fact, but I know, it's garbage.
- Buddy, it's not only me who wonders about the B764. Boeing had a clear chance to offer a strong competitor to the A332 and what they did was just streching the B763 without giving it more range. It might work perfect for CO and DL (maybe for AA and UA in the future), but many current B763 long haul operators (such as AC and QF) will most likely choose the A332 for replacement as many have already done.
- The A332 is not part of the A340 series, you have never been so right. But it costed Airbus not so much to develop the A332, it's just a kind of subtype, and a very good one.
- No, I have never managed an airline. But I have read many neutral sources on aviation. I would recommend that to you as well...


Regards
Udo


25 Post contains images KFRG : Yes Udo, you must be correct. BTW, talk to UA or AA about thie Trans-Con operations, and mabye you will learn a thing or two. -Tom
26 Westjet_8 : I think the best plane would be the modern A332. They should of corse have two seating confierations one for buiness routes such as MXP-NRT and touris
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