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China Plans A380 Order  
User currently offlineBigo747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3229 times:

China's Xinhua Net has reported that China will order some A380 for it's upcoming 2008 Beijing Summer Olympic Games.

China currently has 178 Airbus', most of them are 320/330/340.

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirbus A380 From Singapore, joined Jan 2001, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Sorry for being ignorant, but does any China airlines operates the A330? Other than Cathay and Dragonair...?

Airbus A380


User currently offlineBackfire From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3100 times:

Nope. Only Cathay and Dragonair.

User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1863 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3003 times:

But China is a majority holder of Dragonair, so it's not a stretch. Anyhow, I think they probably meant the A300 which a few Chinese airlines are operating.

China will order anything, but I don't think China needs the A380. Air China can't always fill their B747s. How can they manage to fill the A380?


User currently offlineHkgspotter1 From Hong Kong, joined Nov 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2968 times:

"China will order anything"

"Can't always will their 747's"


They even fly 744's on the Beijing - Shenzhen route, so are you saying they are empty ?


User currently offlineGodbless From Sweden, joined Apr 2000, 2752 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2961 times:

In China they for some parts still take a different approach when ordering airplanes than just the economical side...
There are some airlines (China Southern?) that have a fleet of A340's and B777's so I can imagine that they will order the A380 if they need them or not...
But I must be honest and say that I don't have too much of a clue regarding the aviation business in China (facts & numbers...).

Max


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2937 times:

With a potential of 1.5 billion people in China alone, I can easily see Chinese airlines ordering the A380. In fact, I'm surprised they did not order them already.


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User currently offlineBobcat From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2843 times:

so that explains why there were dozens of Airbus executives
in Beijing hotels last week.... (at Grand Hyatt Beijing and
Courtyard New World, near Temple of Heaven)  Smile

No doubt there were some serious discussions going on...


User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1863 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2754 times:

Hkgspotter1:

Yes, Chinese airlines order everything. For example, China Southern has both the A320 and 737NG, Air China has the 737NG and soon the A319. Air China used to have both the A340 along with the 777.

And what does flying the 747 between Shenzhen and Beijing prove? Air China has over capacity problems, that's why the have unloaded the older 747s and A340s and attempted to unload some of the 777s. Because they can't more effectively use their 747s, that's why they are sending them to fly domestic routes. How many Air China's routes have more than two daily 747 or 777 flights? I'm sure they have a few, but I doubt there are enough of them to justify ordering the A380.


User currently offlineSpaceman From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

It might not make sense right now in our global economic crisis, but few years down the road things might just pick up a bit. In this business you don't just look at the present situation you have to anticipate future growth and opportunities. China has the potential to become the world's greatest aviation market, so why shouldn't they be thinking about the A380?

User currently offlineHkgspotter1 From Hong Kong, joined Nov 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (11 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2672 times:

The reason they have two types of the same size is often due to Politics.

When did CA order the A319 ?, they had the A318 on order but since the P&W engine is not ready I heard they cancelled them.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2621 times:

I'm not surprised that China plans to buy the A380.

They could become the launch customer for the A380-800 Combi, given the large amount of goods shipped out of China.


User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1863 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2564 times:

Hkgspotter1:

That's what I meant when I said they order everything. The order everything because of politics. If they order the A380, it will once again because of politics and prestige.

CA has switched their 8 A318 orders to 6 A319 orders.


User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2542 times:

China has the potential to become the world's greatest aviation market, so why shouldn't they be thinking about the A380?

For the same reason the A380 (or the 747400) has a small place in the current largest aviation market today - people prefer high frequency point to point service with an ever increasing network of cities. Not more limited service all piped through the crowded mega hubs.

This Chinese A380 interest is a perfect example of most of the planes' customers so far. The A380 will be a great ego boost and publicity vehicle for the Olympics and other customers who buy for noneconomic reasons.

They could become the launch customer for the A380-800 Combi, given the large amount of goods shipped out of China.

This is very true. The A380 has great potential as a freighter.

The order everything because of politics. If they order the A380, it will once again because of politics and prestige.

This is also true. Take a look at the top 6 airlines in the world, and none of them are interested in the A380, they are interested in only market forces. Below this, you start to encounter more airlines that are interested in politics and prestige - these are the prime targets for A380 sales. In fact, the A380 is perfect for government controlled airlines or anywhere that government plays a big role in deciding where airlines can fly. If you've got 1000 people that want to fly between point A and point B every day, nonmarket forces like the government finds it easy to say, 'fine, put them on 2 huge airplanes that fly when we say they will fly.'... as opposed to market forces which would rather have 10 smaller planes at convenient schedules. The more governement is involved, the more desire for the A380, the more market forces dominate, the less attractive it becomes.

If the Communist regime in China stays strong, the A380 can look to them as great potential customers. If China continues moving towards a market economy, the A380 faces a more limited future. The thinking that breeds the A380 - ignoring the market for the desires of aerospace and social engineers - is the same thinking of communists everywhere. Is there any doubt but that if the world were communist we'd be flying around on huge mega aircraft at unpleasant schedules? Embracing the market means moving away from the large centralized overcrowded hubs of the A380 world.

kind regards,

RogueTrader





User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2513 times:

"...take a look at the top 6 airlines in the world..."
And who exactely are the top 6 airlines? American, Delta, United, are these
some of the airlines you call 'top 6 airlines'? Well you're right if you talking about number of passengers carried or the size of their fleets. it takes more than that to be called a top airline. What about profitability? No money, no new planes. Lufthansa, Qantas, Singapore Airlines, Air France all posted profits even after the difficult times they had in the months after 9/11 and all have the A380 on order.

"...10 smaller planes at convenient schedules..."

If you're going to fly from FRA to NRT or ICN, you really dont need the choice of 10 different departure times each day. In fact, even today there is no choice. LH, OZ and KE all operate flights between FRA and ICN, and all depart within 2.5 hours. Doesn't make much of a difference if you're going to fly for 12 hours.

China is surrounded by other overcrowded Asian airports, with hardly any space for more airports. Even short distance flights to ICN, NRT, KIX and HKG are today already operated by 747/777/330/340 aircraft. It can only get busier, but no romier. A day has 24 hours and nothing can change that.



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User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2481 times:

I am not surprised that Air China is looking at the A380-800.

For example, despite the politics of China, there is a huge amount of both tourist and business traffic in and out of Beijing (PEK) and Shanghai (PVG). Because of China's rapidly modernizing economy and the huge number of tourists visiting that country, it won't take long before the long range fleets of Air China, China Southern and China Eastern airlines will prove to be inadequate for their needs.

I will also not be surprised that Air China also orders the A380-800F, because China is home to a lot of electronics goods factories and they need to be able to ship a lot of goods out of the country quickly, which will demand bigger air freighters.


User currently offlineJaws707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 708 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2446 times:

Personally I think for now that China should only order the A380F. With all of the electronics produced there this will be a perfect plane for shipping all of those components all over the world. I think they should wait for a while on the A380 passenger because I do not think they are ready for such a plane. Purchasing the plane for just the Olympics is an insane idea. The Olympics only last 2 weeks and because they are in 2008 I dont know that they would even get the planes delivered in time.

User currently offlineCarnoc From China, joined Oct 2001, 875 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2461 times:

Personally, I think Airbus 380 is a good choice for Chinese airlines' further expansions.

Yesterday, I was talking with a F/A from Air China (CA), he told me that the number of passengers to Europe on Air China flights is rapidly growing and there are already quite a few problems with the urgent needs of more aircrafts and some F/As. He also told me that he figured that on most Air China flights to Europe over 70% of total passenger seats had been booked during off peak seasons and you will often see no seat left on Air China flights to Europe during the peak seasons and school holidays.

There is no doubt that Airbus 380 is a waste of money to be introduced by Chinese carriers at current stage, but we need to look at things further as some guys said earlier.

Seriously, as the living standard of Chinese people continues improving, we have no question that more and more people will choose to get on a flight and enjoy the flying experiences, especially all domestic trips. Here is an example. A few years ago, I was travelling from Beijing to Shanghai, there were very few flights I may select and when I got on a night flight operated by Air China, there were not many passengers. However, do you know how many flights you can get between Beijing and Shanghai? Sometimes, as many as nearly 40 flights (can't remember how many flights normally, but usually around 30 flights), although the average percentage of booked seats is not so good (I think somewhere around 60% at off peak times), but we can see the need of air transportations is highly increasing in China.

By the way, we don't need to look at all those 'big carriers', because they are all different, so we have to look deeper in every case and give a careful conclusion to each one. In fact, I also agree with Manni's opinion, it is right that more schedules will bring conveniences, but a lot of Asian airports have no more space to develop and there is also a limitation of air traffic controlling development and they still have to try to increase their transportations, so bigger aircrafts are useful under these certain cases.


User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2426 times:

RogueTrader For the same reason the A380 (or the 747400) has a small place in the current largest aviation market today - people prefer high frequency point to point service with an ever increasing network of cities. Not more limited service all piped through the crowded mega hubs.

LoL RogueTrader, I was wondering how long it would take you, to migrate on over here  Smile

But looka, there's really no point in mystifying all this, spinning like a dervish, and so on. A380 ain't going to be a 2000-passenger cruise liner or anything, in terms of capacity it's only : a 744, and 73G, rolled into one. Or a 744 with the upper-deck extended all the way back, if you prefer. There! Mystification gone  Smile


Sure the launch phase of a craft like this is political --but then that`s commercial aviation for ya, when is it not, when airliners are just getting introduced to the marketplace. But after the first 100 of these things are delivered, if it`s a good plane with good economics, reliability and customer and client satisfaction then you're going to see a whole bunch of them flying, down the road (and yes you`re going to see them at ATL, you'll see them at ORD, and LAX, and JFK/EWR, SFO, MIA, likely even DEN and SEA as well!) And of course, if they work well you're going to see them elsewhere, too, South Africa and Brazil and Japan and of course China too. So there y'go, strap in and wait and see what the next several years bring.


User currently offlineRai From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2395 times:

And who exactely are the top 6 airlines? American, Delta, United, are these
some of the airlines you call 'top 6 airlines'? Well you're right if you talking about number of passengers carried or the size of their fleets. it takes more than that to be called a top airline.


First of all, there is no need for petty, immature remarks like that. That seems to be all you know how to do on this forum.  Insane

As far as Asian airport expansion, most of the new airports that have been built were built with future expansion in mind. ICN, KIX, CLK, KIA, PVG, etc. While many Asian airports are quite crowded, they are not too busy in terms of aircraft movements (not necessarily a bad thing). To my knowledge, there is not one airport in Asia that handles more that 250,000 aircraft movements per year; they can easily accommodate more traffic. CLK, ICN, PVG have been designed with this sort of expansion in mind.

Furthermore, there is already evidence of fragmentation within Asia. This is even the case with intercontinental routes. LH already flies to Asia (Bangkok and I'm sure a few other routes) from MUC. Many Asian airlines fly to MAN. Even within China, other cities have already started intercontinental routes (Guangzhou being one of them). Carnoc brought up the example of many more flights being offered within China for the sake of convenience. This demand will grow even further as China develops more. I believe the airports currently have the capacity to accommodate these increases. Also, more cities in China will demand more services as their economies grow and investment goes there. Chongquing, Chengdu, Wuhan, Shenzhen, Tianjin, to name a few, are all large cities with huge economic potential. They are going to want to get into action as well, including getting more commercial airline flights. And while an A380 maybe justified on routes from Shanghai and Beijing to JFK, LAX, LHR, SFO and FRA, routes from Chongquing, Wuhan, Shenzhen and Guangzhou do not justify such a large plane. And I don’t think business leaders from those cities or anyone going to them would want to funnel through Shanghai, Hong Kong or Beijing to make those connections. To further elaborate, LH recently said that they would like to fly to at least ten cities in China within the next ten years. If that isn’t fragmentation, then I don’t know what is. I seriously doubt that all those cities will get a plane of even the 747’s size.


User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2377 times:

Manni,

I never cease to be amazed at how much wishful thinking influences the views of some who have an agenda and seek to promote it.

Manni says:

And who exactly are the top 6 airlines?

I use the world standard in ranking airlines: RPKs. If you can get any major authority to change to whatever ranking promotes your agenda, feel free, and perhaps I'll take your ranking more seriously.


Lufthansa, Qantas, Singapore Airlines, Air France all posted profits even after the difficult times they had in the months after 9/11 and all have the A380 on order.

The facts, however, indicate:

Air France was the only major European airline to earn money last year, with net income of 153 millions euros ($152 million).... While Lufthansa had a record loss of 591 million euros.
---Bloomberg News September 4, 2002, Wednesday

Anyone else care to offer facts instead of stuff they overheard or imaginary visions of the truth?

American/European Aviation situation/history:

-large domestic travel on narrow bodies
-transatlantic traffic dominated by twins, fragmented
-an ever increasing number of international gateways
-Asian travel on the 747 for RANGE, not capacity

Supposed version of Asian/Chinese travel envisioned by thread contributors above
-Asia will skip the narrowbody stage and somehow jump straight into needing a mega jumbo on domestic routes - this is in fact contrary to Airbus views
-Asia will maintain Heathrow style reliance on one international gateway per country, instead of opening up an ever increasing number of Asian cities to the rest of the world
-Reliance on the A380 for capacity, not range

The primary place for the passenger A380 is Asia to Europe, and that's only if no new routes are created. One common bit of evidence given as to why the A380 is needed is by showing the few routes where the 747 flies longhaul more than once a day. As if this longhaul route is the only route between the countries and regions that can ever occur. People want and will fly from an ever increasing number of cities on longhaul routes, they will not simply continue to get on bigger and bigger airplanes flying only the routes that exist today.

kind regards,

RogueTrader



User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2351 times:

Rogue Trader, Rai

If you read my post without looking for a possibility to start bitching  Nuts(again), you might want to admit that I actually asked what for you a top airline means. If you mean RPK, you could have mentioned that in you previous post and I did not had to ask this question.

Sure the Asian airports have been build for expansion, but you need more than a big airport. Restrictions on landing or take off from the origin airport could influence the use of some airports a lot, NRT and it's night curfew for example.

Cathay Pacific, Qantas and Malaysian (correct me if they opened up again), have ceased operations to MAN and are now only flying to LHR. So much about the Asian carriers flying to secondary airports.
LH is the home carrier for 80 million people, no surprise they have a second hub.

One more thing Rogue Trader,
It more looks that you're the one who is wishful thinking, wishful thinking that the A380 wont be a commercial succes. If so, I will not loose one night sleep over it, but if it will, you might have some big nightmares coming up. Big grin

Goodnight,  Big grin



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User currently offlinePhxinterrupted From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2328 times:

Manni, thanks for going to sleep! Your anti-American posts have become quite boring.


Keepin' it real.
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2320 times:

Are you feeling sorry for yourself again?
Where in the previous posts did I come over as Anti-American?  Innocent
Get a life buddy. I've got more on my mind than continously writing about your nation.  Nuts

Goodnight,



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User currently offlineRai From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2329 times:

Manni: It was assumed by pretty much everyone else on here that by "top airlines", RPK was assumed. You, of course, want to start an argument and insult others because that's all you seem to know how to do.

Now,

Sure the Asian airports have been build for expansion, but you need more than a big airport. Restrictions on landing or take off from the origin airport could influence the use of some airports a lot, NRT and it's night curfew for example.

First of all, Narita has a curfew because of greedy farmers. The airport is too far away from any major population base to cause noise concern. Incheon, Chek Lap Kok and Kansai are all operational 24 hours a day. No airport in China, to my knowledge, has a nighttime flying ban either. Even with a night time flying ban, these airports don’t have too many operations. If you bothered to read my entire post, you would have noticed that. I will repeat it again in bold and in caps so you get the message: NO AIRPORT IN ASIA HANDLES MORE THAN 250 000 AIRCRAFT MOVEMENTS PER YEAR! Not a single one. All of these airports are capable of handling more aircraft than the currently do. And to tell you the truth, aside from Narita, which is constrained for political reasons, none of the other airports are all that congested and are UNDER capacity. Bangkok is building another airport, but this is to replace the antiquated facilities of the present one. The new airport will be more than capable of handling more passengers and more aircraft.

Actually, MH has started flying to Manchester again. PIA also flies there too. There are other Asian carriers that fly there as well. Check this out. If service was cut, it was because of a slowdown in the industry as a result of the terrorist attacks and the global recession. Has nothing to do with Manchester being an undesirable airport…especially with over six million people living within a hundred mile radius.


25 Manni : Rai, Dont assume to much. Pretty everyone else? You mean you and Rogue Trader? Dont be so egocentric. Chep Lap Kok and Kansai operate 24 hours a day.
26 Joni : 10 destinations in China is about 120 million people per destination. The population of Germany is about 80-90 million, for comparison.
27 Ryu2 : Not only for the Olympics, if and when China and Taiwan re-open direct air routes again, you BET there will be need for A380 on those routes, for both
28 Singapore_Air : "So much about the Asian carriers flying to secondary airports." Singapore Airlines flies to Manchester.
29 Manni : I'm aware of that Singapore_Air, in fact they fly to MAN in combination with BRU.
30 Boeing in pdx : If China wants to impress the world by flying everybody else's planes I think they should build there own. That would be much more impressive to me. T
31 Post contains images Rai : If China wants to impress the world by flying everybody else's planes I think they should build there own. That would be much more impressive to me. T
32 N79969 : Nice job again Rogue Trader. China has built its own planes and they aren't that good. They assembled MD-80s in Shanghai (some of which were flown by
33 Manni : Anyone else care to offer facts...? (from aviation week and space technology/august 26, 2002) The australian carrier (Qantas) reported a net profit of
34 N79969 : 10 destinations in China is about 120 million people per destination. The population of Germany is about 80-90 million, for comparison. I think popula
35 Spaceman : If you can say Germany is the heart of Europe you can also say safely say that China is the heart of East Asia. However you can not compare Germany as
36 Scottb : Well, if profits are the measure of a "top" airline, then the top airline in the world flies no international routes. In the period quoted for Qantas
37 Varig md-11 : hi there let me allow a couple of comments about the following " American/European Aviation situation/history: -large domestic travel on narrow bodies
38 Post contains images Manni : Scottb, Thank you for that . My point whoever was the show that Rogue Trader was either misinformed about Lufthansa or either had put the wrong number
39 RogueTrader : Manni, I am rarely misinformed about my own job and never post the 'wrong numbers' on purpose merely to intimidate an airline "admirer" like yourself.
40 Post contains images N79969 : I don't think China will replace Japan as a hub. Japan's location is like Britain's location. Travelers from either the east or west of Japan can tran
41 Rai : don't think China will replace Japan as a hub. Japan's location is like Britain's location. Travelers from either the east or west of Japan can trans
42 Joni : RogueTrader, "Twins" is a large category ranging from A318 to B773. A318 is a small plane, whereas the B773 is large. Virgin Atlantic and Air France,
43 N79969 : One "wrong" would have sufficed. Actually, I think I am correct. Yes, NRT and KIX are expensive and constrained. However if ICN were such a better tra
44 Carnoc : So far, China tries so hard to develop three hubs into well-developed transit points, the three airports are Beijing Capital Int'l, Shanghai Pudong In
45 RogueTrader : Joni, I appreciate your calm words and review of the facts. As to whether the A380 can work across the Atlantic - it probably can for a very few route
46 Red Panda : China PRC has only 1.25 billion people, not 1.5 billion. Moreover, even there is a huge population there in China, the flying pop'n is just a very, ve
47 Manni : Red Panda, You're right, well almost. According to the 'China Population Information and Research Center', the correct number stands at nearly 1.3 bil
48 Rai : But let's not forget the huge Chinese communities elsewhere in the world, who most likely visit their home country every once in a while. There are 80
49 Joni : RogueTrader, Even if the traffic between CDG and JFK would decrease percentagewise of total transatlantic traffic, the traffic in passenger numbers m
50 Jaws707 : I think that there is too much emphasis being put on fragmentation. For example a route like JFK-LHR is always full and will always be full and that w
51 PW100 : RogueTrader I really appreciate you as being the only one on this forum to mention sources. Most of us A.netters shout all sorts of statements, usuall
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