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AA To Start A Hub At Jfk?  
User currently offlineJcxp15 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 997 posts, RR: 5
Posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4998 times:

About 2 weeks ago there was an article in one of the NYC local papers. In it they mentioned the new AirTrain, which offers a one seat ride from Jamaica to JFK. (you have to take a LIRR train from Penn to Jamaica).
I believe the main purpose of the article, though, was to draw attention to AA possibly building up a hub at JFK. In it, the article said Don Carty was in favor of building up a hub at JFK if a one seat ride from Manhattan to the AA terminal could be established.

Obviously this hasn't received much "press" mainly because it would not happen at least for another 5 years at least, but is this something AA should be evaluating seriously? As a NYC resident, I can tell you most people in the city prefer LGA or JFK over EWR (a lot don't know about the EWR "airtrain" which is kinda misleading since you have to take one of NJ transit's diesels and then change), mainly because the two are accessable via mass transit, cab fares are cheaper to both than EWR, and they're in NYC(there's just something about going into Jersey that makes EWR seem so much farther).

Anyway, any comments on this? Do you think it is a viable idea? AA has a lot of internation traffic in and out of JFK as well as trans-con service, and I can definately see AA setting up at least an "Eastern third of the US" hub at JFK. If AA were to establish a hub at JFK, especially if a one seat ride from MH was established, how bad would this affect CO at EWR? I know a lot of EWR's pax come from NJ, SI, PA and the Hudson Valley, but I'm sure they draw quite a few from the city as well.... Any comments..

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCLL777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4955 times:

I don't know what will happen, but way back in the old days, AA was based out of JFK. DFW just lured them away with nice financial incentives. They already fly a bunch of flights from JFK-California and their presence was growing until the major downturn. With the new terminal maybe it will be but look at MIA being the major focus of their new operations, they added a MIA-LHR flight for the winter.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16228 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4899 times:

It depends how you define "hub". Arguably, AA has a sizeable hub (or presence) at JFK already.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16693 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4908 times:

First NJ Transit does not operate diesels into NY Penn, only Electric trains (either third rail or catenary) can go into either NY Penn or Grand Central.

The Newark airport rail station is on the North East corridor about 1-2 miles South of Newark Penn, it's served by NJ Transit and Amtrak (all electric) from Manhattan and points along the NEC. CO codeshares with Amtrak for service on Acela Regionals from EWR to Philly, Wilmington DE, New Haven, and Stamford.

Once you arrive at the Newark Airport rail station you board the Airtrain into the terminals, from the rail station to Terminal C takes 5 minutes. The Airtrains travel between the Rail station and the terminals every 3 minutes, Amtrak and NJ Transit run trains from Manhattan to EWR every 15-20 minutes. The trip from NY Penn to EWR takes 20 minutes, so from Manhattan until your in Terminal C takes about 30 minutes.



















There will be no one seat ride from JFK into Manhattan until 2012 at the earliest, that's when the LIRR's East Side access project will free up some slots at NY Penn which would allow more rail service into Manhattan. There's no room right now, also remember that the ROW that they want to use to get train to JFK is the Air Trains over the Van Wyck which is owned by the PA, for the PA to approve anything they need permission from both the Governors of NY and NJ.

And for NJ to go along with a "oneseat ride" proposal they would want EWR to benefit also, which would mean a PATH extension to EWR. The PATH terminates just South of Newark Penn Station about 1 mile from the EWR station, the proposals mentioned last year had the PATH going directly into the Central Terminal area of EWR.

The PATH serves 33rd street, 23rd street, 14th street, 9th street and Christopher streets as well as Hoboken , Jersey City and the World Trade Center (which is expected to be restored by DEC '03).


And with regards to the new AA terminal keep in mind that of the 50 (or so) new gates that about 20-25 are for RJs, and then other gates will be for partners.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineUsairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3326 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4881 times:

i thought the Airtrain at JFK was just supposed to pick up LIRR passengers at Jamaica and take them to the JFK central terminal area. so it would really be a 2 seat ride from manhattan to JFK

User currently offlineDIA77 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 704 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4812 times:

How extensive is AA's international network out of JFK? Anyone have a list?

User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5577 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4763 times:

There will be no one seat ride from JFK into Manhattan until 2012 at the earliest, that's when the LIRR's East Side access project will free up some slots at NY Penn which would allow more rail service into Manhattan.

East Side Access would not allow for single-seat travel between Manhattan and JFK. AirTrain cars are not compatible with operation on a mainline railroad. All that East Side Access would do is allow the LIRR to run some trains into Grand Central, which also might lead to some Metro North trains serving Penn Station. But AirTrain and JFK access would not be affected.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4684 times:

As a Manhattanite, I much prefer EWR, and I have to disagree with Jcsp15's assertion that most New Yorker's prefer LGA or JFK seeing that EWR is NYC's busiest airport. Most Long Islanders obviously would prefer going to JFK, and I don't think anyone really "prefers" LGA. EWR is such a piece of cake to get to now (from Manhattan), and it's a much nicer and better arranged facility than JFK. EWR is actually closer to most of Manhattan than JFK as well.

Nonetheless, as far as AA building up a hub at JFK... I think they wouldn't be investing the 1.8 billion (or whatever the amount is) into rebuilding their terminals at JFK unless it was going to allow them to grow there. But I do not think that means a full-fledged connecting hub.

Also, I thought AA was originally based at LGA, not JFK (as someone said earlier).



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineRai From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4633 times:

EWR is such a piece of cake to get to now (from Manhattan), and it's a much nicer and better arranged facility than JFK. EWR is actually closer to most of Manhattan than JFK as well.

I think it depends on what part of Manhattan. If you live in lover Manhattan, without question, EWR is more convenient. Midtown and Upper? That's more debatable. I used to work in Lower Manhattan and found departing from Newark more convenient. I live in Queens, so Newark isn't the best option for me. As far as which airport is closer to Manhattan, EWR is closer to Lower Manhattan, but JFK and EWR are equidistant to mid-town -- about 15 miles away each. Newark is the busiest airport (not by that much) because it actually has hub operations compared to the other two. Both airports serve their catchment areas well. Remember that JFK and LGA serve huge population bases as well and not everything can funnel through EWR.

And AA's original HQ were in New York, but they moved to Dallas.

STT757: T8 will have 56 gates -- 38 for large jets and 18 for commuters.


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4527 times:

>>Both airports serve their catchment areas well. Remember that JFK and LGA serve huge population bases as well and not everything can funnel through EWR.<<

I never said anything to the contrary. I agree with you. I was merely responding to Jcxp15's comments that seemed to imply JFK and LGA are unequivocally NY's "preferred" airports. I don't think that's true. Logic would dicate if one lives in Queens, LGA or JFK (both in Queens) are more convenient. But I would say that Midtown is actually THE most convenient part of Manhattan to get to EWR from with the new train service to EWR from Penn. I usually take the PATH as I live very near the 14th street station rather than take the 1/2/3 line up to Penn, but NJTransit from Penn is only 20 minutes to the EWR station.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineBlink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5476 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4450 times:

I don't think JFK will ever become an ORD or DFW, but I think AA will always use JFK as a hub. They aren't building that new terminal just for show.

blink



Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
User currently offlineSetjet From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1097 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4395 times:

Another side note to the famous EWR Airtrain connection from Penn Station:

Why is it almost $25 roundtrip for the 12 miles? That's overpriced a lot IMO when you compare it to the other NJ Transit fares (let alone prices in other countries!)?
Just think about the "service" you get:
You have to take very old and often crowded trains with no luggage storage facilities whatsoever and you still have to transfer (stair up, stair down).

Like many things in NYC: Very overpriced IMO!


User currently offlineJcxp15 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 997 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4375 times:

STT757:

This wasn't a transit based thread... The pictures are nice, but take so long for ppl with 56k to load, and no real point in them. So i "exagerated" a little on NJ transit using diesels.. and who exactly are you kidding.. it might be 30 mins from EWR to Penn, but then you have to include travel time from Penn to the final destination. If you go to JFK, it only costs a 1.50, but does take at least an hour to even 2 hours (depending on where you are in NYC). Plus, a lot of the time there aren't any seats on the NJ transit trains. I used to take NJ transit to Newark a lot at all times, and if you don't run to the platform, and get to the train before the doors open, chances are you're not gonna get a seat, or you'll have to sit right next to someone (which is extremely uncomfortable).
The path is a decent system. Did you know there were talks about extending it and running it up the Lexington Av local? These talks haven't gotten anywhere, in fact I think they're dead, but there was that rumor.
No one who's a tourist is gonna take the PATH into the city. I rarely see non-NY/NJ'ers on the PATH, because most people don't know about it, and it's not the greatest of trains to be on at off hours, especially if you're not from the area.

Usairways85:

No offense, but posts like yours are the kind that piss me and a bunch of other people off. IF you had read my original thread, you would have seen this "In it they mentioned the new AirTrain, which offers a one seat ride from Jamaica to JFK. (you have to take a LIRR train from Penn to Jamaica). "... It's no so much the question, but on about every thread there are questions like this, and it just disorganizes a lot, and makes for pointless posts.

TWFirst:

About 4 months ago there was a big debate about which airport NY'ers like. There's no point in rehashing things, but for the most part a lot of NY'ers said they prefer JFK and LGA. A lot of Manhattanites who lived on the "midtown" Westside or downtown liked EWR, but most of them on the Upper East Side, Upper West Side, Washington Heights etc.. prefered LGA or JFK. EWR draws a lot of CO FF members from Manhattan too. But, for the most part, in my experiences people that I associate with tend to favor flying out of LGA (unless it's late afternoon). EWR is a better bet for late afternoon flights simply because LGA and JFK can accumulate enormous delays. EWR being NY's busiest one airport is kinda misleading. First off, it's CO's hub which right off the bat funnels a lot more people through there. Second off, it's not even in NY, it's in NJ, which means that most of the people who go to EWR don't even come from NYC, let alone NYS. When most people in NYC say "i'm flying internationally" they usually go out of JFK, which offers many more international flights than EWR. In the long run, though, it really doesn't matter who likes which airport, as long as you get a cheap ticket, and get to your destination.


User currently offlineRai From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4341 times:

I rarely see non-NY/NJ'ers on the PATH, because most people don't know about it, and it's not the greatest of trains to be on at off hours, especially if you're not from the area.


I'll second that comment. That PATH is a very "interesting" ride during the off-hours.  Big grin


User currently offlineSetjet From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1097 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4349 times:

Yeah, the PATH train looks somewhat like a cheaply built spaceship in a seventies movie!
Actually very retro. But I guess it's too early to call it "hip".


User currently offlineRai From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4322 times:

Yeah, the PATH train looks somewhat like a cheaply built spaceship in a seventies movie!
Actually very retro. But I guess it's too early to call it "hip".


Still, as "cheaply" built as it may be, it's a lot better and cleaner than many subway systems I've seen.


User currently offlineAeroAussie From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 264 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4284 times:

I too am a native New Yorker, and I much prefer EWR over JFK or LGA. The airtrain, despite Jcxp15's initial comment, is quite a convenient service, and I have taken it direct to Newark from the city on a number of occasions, as well as from Wilmington, DE and Washington, DC. Furthermore, You fly through customs and immigration at EWR, versus the excrutiating lines at JFK.
Furthermore, CO has an excellent hub at EWR, with extremely convenient domestic service, as well as excellent service to both Europe and South America, as well as some service to Asia. It would be nice if AA had a hub in New York, as they also offer a good product, but for now I am quite content with CO, EWR, and EWR's airtrain.
-Nick


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16693 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4249 times:

It costs $11 on NJ Transit to EWR from Manhattan (not $25), the $23 fare is for Amtrak (alot cheaper and nicer than a cab).

"Second off, it's not even in NY, it's in NJ"

Guess what, so are the Giants and Jets. And so is the area's best Basketball team Smile I still like the Knicks though, my friend Erica from high school has been a Knick's City Dancer for 4 years. I also have a funny story about hanging out with "Herb" Williams down at the Westin Rio Mar in Puerto Rico Big grin

The PATH is much better than any NYC Subway, by far. And if it's connected to EWR it would be a huge success, especially since the PATH serves some of NYC's best tourist destinations in the Village and Herald Square. Also the PATH is the center piece to a new $4 Billion transit hub in Lower Manhattan which will draw huge crowds of both visitors and business folks.


"let alone NYS"

On the contrary EWR is very convienent to folks from Rockland and Orange Counties, right down the Parkway. Also when the Seacucus transfer opens it will allow folks from the Port Jervis and Spring Valley lines to connect to EWR, making the trip to EWR even shorter.

And I have my reservations about AA building up JFK, my opinion is I would be very suprised if they had more than 75 flights.

They only have 1 flight to Chicago, and DFW their biggest hubs and the busiest business routes from NY.


When you say NY'ers prefer JFK, you are obviously not including business travelers. Of the largest business communities with service from NY JFK offers the least, DFW, Chicago only have 1 flight each! And they're AA's biggest hubs, business travelers vote with their feet and EWR and LGA are the prefered airports.

EWR gets about 55% -60% of their business from business travelers, LGA gets about 65%, JFK gets about 25% business travelers. Which is why there are almost no flights to Chicago but lots of flights to Florida.

And Im sorry if the pictures are loading slow, it's time to get Optimun online.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16693 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4230 times:

Also keep in mind that when the JFK Airtrain opens they will most likely get rid of the shuttle bus from the Howard Beach station, they will make you ride the Airtrain.

And the fare will not be $1.50, but rather $6.50 (or more). You will have to pay $5-8 bucks for the Airtrain surcharge depending on whether you ride the Subway or the LIRR, the surcharge will be on top of the regular fare.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineJcxp15 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 997 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4178 times:

AeroAussie:

Yea, I'm not gonna dispute that the AirTrain to EWR is a lot more convenient than going to JFK, but it's not as easy as everyone makes it out to be... Many many people here in NY think it's a one seat ride, and then are completely surprised when they find out they have to take regular NJ transit to the AirTrain.


STT757:

May I ask how often you ride the NYC subway and the PATH to be able to compare them? You live in NJ, so it's not like you "live" on the trains as some of us who live in NY do. In case you haven't noticed the new trains in NYC (R142's/A's) are actually quite nice.. a lot nicer than the PATH. And, come on.. don't kid yourself.. How many tourists actually know about the PATH, and if they do how many do you think ride it? I would estimate not too many. A lot of tourists buy $4 funpasses (they give you unlimited rides all day) and then rides the subways.

Let me also ask you this question. Next to the A train station at JFK, there is parking. How are all those people gonna get to the terminal from their cars. If they eliminate the buses, they'll lose all those people and people aren't gonna wanna pay parking and then AirTrain fare.
If they do indeed suspend the buses, then it'll be a be loss for ppl from the city going to JFK.

Also, go back to my original post, and see that I said "hudson valley". That would include the counties in NYS you mentioned.

As far as the business travelers go, you're right when you say that none of them wanna go to JFK. it's too far... and LGA is a lot closer, and EWR draws mainly FF members on CO.


User currently offlineFleet service From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 622 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4097 times:

Regarding STT's "Suprise" about JFK having more than 75 flights, we currently operate 77 daily.With 20 gates no less.

Now why would we spend $1.8 billion to add additional mainline gates if there weren't plans for extensive growth?

From conversations I've had with several supervisors here, the plan pre 9/11 was for the JFK operation to grow to the neighborhood of 150 daily mainline departures.As to what the plan is now, time will tell.

STT is rabidly Pro Jersey and EWR, so his strident assertions need to be taken with a grain of salt.To hear him tell it, people that live here in Queens will go to EWR over JFK. (Easy STT, just kiddin')

For the record, there is NO JFK-ORD service,everything to ORD goes from LGA, there are two DFW flights and two to STL from JFK.





Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16693 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4017 times:

Jcxp15,

The JFK Airtrain will serve the long term parking lots and rental car facility near Howard beach, there will be no surcharge for them. The surcharge is for folks using the Subway or LIRR, there will be turnstiles at the A train and Jamaica stations where you will need to pay the surcharge to ride (just like the picture I posted above of the EWR Airtrain).

Im in Manhattan once a week, I work in Newark. I ride the PATH once a week and the Subway more often in the Fall and Winter, it's too hot down there in the Summer (I prefer to walk). The PATH is a better system, clean,nicer stations etc (IMO). Yes the MTA /NYCTA ( to Which my Grandpa worked as and electrician in the Coney Island yards for many years) are introducing the new R-142s etc, but besides those I still say the PATH trains, stations etc are cleaner and run better than most Subway lines.

Also the PATH is ordering new PA-5 cars , ten car trains similar (just a little smaller) to the R-142s.

Fleet service,

Your including Eagle with those numbers right? Im talking about jets bigger than a M-80, not ERJ-135s and SF-3s.

I just flew Eagle's ERJ-140 and ERJ-135 on a recent trip to JFK-Montreal, they were nice but I would have prefered to fly on CO's 737s from EWR to YUL. However price was a big reason why I went to JFK and flew Eagle's RJs.

They bused us from gate (door) 40 B to the Mid-field concoure (to my suprise is almost done) to board the flight.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4731 posts, RR: 45
Reply 22, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4008 times:

Nice to see some NYC'ers on this board...

I didnt know they were going to up the charge to JFK from Manhattan as a result of airtrain opening.

Also didnt' know they were getting R142's. I'd presume they were getting R143 like style trains or even the new R160's that are going to be coming down the line soon.

As you know the R142's are the new rolling stock that operate on the 2/5/6 lines, whereas the R143's operate on the L (which are, I believe, in ratio, more like the current path trains than the skinny R142's). The R160's haven't arrived yet. A great site on the NYC subway is www.nycsubway.org

-Gus



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineFleet service From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 622 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3964 times:

The 70 plus number is mainline only.If you want to include Eagle in the daily AMR departure tally from JFK you will be well over 100.



The 150 departure number is mainline alone, although as I said that was from pre September 11 conversations with local management.As to what the actual number of mainline departures will be when the terminal is completed remains to be seen.


To clarify the breakdown of gates, 20 of the gates are RJ gates, the remaining 36 are mainline gates.



Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5577 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3929 times:

As you know the R142's are the new rolling stock that operate on the 2/5/6 lines, whereas the R143's operate on the L (which are, I believe, in ratio, more like the current path trains than the skinny R142's). The R160's haven't arrived yet.

PATH cars are 8'10" wide, the same as the R142's. The R143's are 10' wide.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
25 Flyguy1 : I really doubt there will be a surcharge for passengers who transfer from the subway, over to the airtrain. This would not make sense, as now there is
26 STT757 : Of course there will be a Surcharge for transfers between the Subway and the JFK Airtrain, the PA controls the Airtrain and the MTA controls the Subwa
27 Post contains links STT757 : Here's a link to a rendering of the Airtrain concourse at the Howard Beach Subway station, notice the turnstiles. Those turnstiles are not for the Sub
28 Jcxp15 : STT757: That is ridiculous. The PA of NY/NJ should continue to offer the free shuttle bus from the train to the terminals. I assume also they're gonna
29 STT757 : There's no foot access or exit from EWR's rail station, I have a feeling they're going to fence every thing off so folks at JFK have to take the Air T
30 FutureFO : For as long as I can remember AA has always had a Hub at JFK. Albeit it is not as large as DFW or STL or MIA but it has always been there.
31 Fleet service : JFK is not a hub station,not by any stretch of the imagination. It is a large station, but nowhere near what qualifies as a hub.
32 Tpowaleny : A friend of the family who's a flight attendant for AA used to be based out of JFK for TWA. (She's now based in STL). She told me that she heard that
33 Aio86 : I seem to remember TWA having a rather large presence at JFK. Did American inherit any slots, routes, space etc. from them? I know they abandoned TWA'
34 Teahan : $5-8 to take a 5-7 minute AirTain ride to Howard Beach MTA??? While I believe it, I quite honestly find that the most ridiculous thing I have heard in
35 STT757 : You already have to pay $5-$8 dollars to ride the EWR Airtrain across highway 1 & 9 from the Terminals to the rail station, the distance is less then
36 Rai : Are you sure about that? Is this new? I don't recall ever paying money to take the EWR airtrain.
37 STT757 : The surcharge is included in the fare, so the fare from EWR-NYP is actually only about $4-5 Dollars. If don't have a ticket for the EWR airport rail s
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