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Truth For Aborted Landing?  
User currently offlineYvr74 From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 52 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1183 times:

Several years ago I was aboard a DL L-1011 from ATL to MCO. It was night and therefore dark. We were what appeared to be just a few feet from touchdown when the airplane's engines begin to spool up, the nose lifted off, and a few seconds later almost in unison, two FA's literally dashed pell mell down the two aisles toward the rear of the aircraft. Nothing was said for several moments--what seemed an eternity as my heart lurched and shuddered.

The pilot came over the PA system to announce that we had to do a go around because the FA's had not finished securing the galley in time. We did a slow circle and landed without incident, but this has always seemed like somewhat of a suspicious explanation for a go around, but I don't know anything about how things work.

Does anyone have any speculations or could this have been the real reason?

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1127 times:

That's exactly what happened and also illustrates an interesting point: even when you make sure you explain exactly what happened on a go-around (or other event) there will always be a certain percentage of passengers that think you are lying to them. If you know that someone is standing you cannot land. I have gone around more than a few times for the FA's not being ready. Like probably was the case on your flight I have set up to land and been told by the FA's that they were running behind on securing the cabin. You tell them to do their best and you press on. If they don't call by landing time you just go around.

User currently offlineNZ767 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 1620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1118 times:

Could well be true although "Cabin Secure" is a checklist item so they should've known about this long before they reached "a few feet from touchdown".
You say it was several years ago; maybe it wasn't in the landing checklist at that time, I don't know.  Smile


User currently offlineNZ767 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 1620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1105 times:

MD88Captain,
Are the F/As (or the Head F/A) reprimanded in any way if you have to initiate a go-around because the cabin isn't secure?


User currently offlineMD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1088 times:

No reprimands. They are doing their best. Getting everyone served on a 302 passeneger L1011 on a 59 minute flight is a big job. And things happen. Those carts on the L1011 were notoriously difficult to secure. You get passengers going into the lav on short final despite being yelled at by the FA's. And sometimes the Captain gives the 10 minute out call at 5 minutes out. Go-arounds are just part of the business. They seem a big deal to the passengers, but to the pilots it is just another flight manuver. They actually break up the routine and that makes them fun in an expensive kind of way.

As to going around at a low altitude for the cabin not being ready, that is up to the Captain. As a FO/SO I have seen it done under 500'. The Captain wanted to give the FA's every opportunity to get seated so the landing could be made. As a Captain I would just go around at 500' because that makes me more comfortable.


User currently offlineMD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1073 times:

Also, at DAL we do not have a Cabin Secure on the Aprroach or Before Landing checklist. DAL used to have a procedure where the FA's had to call the cockpit to say they were ready to land. Now they just call if they are not ready. We coordinate with the head FA to give him/her a good idea of time remaining. 10 minutes out is a common call to the back although some like a 20min and 10 min call. And technically we do not actually have to talk to them on interphone because 4 bells on the No smoking sign means 10 minutes out. Most guys will ring it on descent through 10,000' because that equates to about 10 minutes. But in the case of a slam dunk the FA's can get caught behind because what you thought was 10 minutes becomes 5. Personally I just give them 4 bells and call. And if we are getting slam dunked I call again. That usually keeps us from a go around.

User currently offlineNZ767 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 1620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1071 times:

Thanks for clarifying that; I thought that would be the case.

I've never had the "pleasure" of a go-around on any of my flights.
Mine have always been "boring, ie, everything goes to plan apart from the nice bumpy landings into my local airport (NZWN/WLG); take a look in the scene library on Airsidetv.com under "Extreme Footage", "Gusty Landings" and you'll see what I mean.

I do recall a flight though when an F/A only took her seat about 30 seconds before touchdown.
I was starting to get worried then!


User currently offlineAA61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1070 times:

i dont think they would lie. i mean the pilots dont get anything out of it.


Go big or go home
User currently offlineStar_world From Ireland, joined Jun 2001, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1055 times:

I had an interesting experience on a TG flight from BKK to HKG last year... it was a night-time flight on a 777-300, and there were no delays at all which meant a straight-in approach to HKG. I was watching the altitude and speed on the PTV screen, and noticed us descending to 3000 feet, then 2000 and below. There was no call from the flight deck indicating "10 minutes to landing" as there normally is. The FAs were still moving through the cabin, picking up cups and other items when we touched down.

I've never seen people move as quickly as they did!  Smile They all immediately dropped everything they were doing and literally ran to their jumpseats, looking extremely embarassed.

Seems like a strange situation - I've never seen this happen on any other flight in my life.

star_world


User currently offlineDutchDeltaDude From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1026 times:

The same happened to me on a KLM flight from LAX to AMS, the pilot gave a 10 minute warning and less then 5 minutes later we landed... the FA's were all walking in the cabin, and it scared the hell out of them  Smile There were some empty seats in coach, and some just sat down in the nearest available seat. Some others rushed towards the galley.

User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 944 times:

I was on an AMC flight once. It had no winows (KC-10) and the landing really scared me was we were not informed that it was comming.

User currently offlineJcxp15 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 997 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 800 times:

I was on a DAL 767 from LGA to ATL sitting right next to the "middle" galley where all the coach cabin F/A's where sitting, and they were still standing about 30 seconds before touchdown. I mean we had gear down, full flaps and were just about to cross that big highway when one lady took her seat and strapped herself in.

User currently offlineBWIrwy4 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 940 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 771 times:

MD88Captain: "even when you make sure you explain exactly what happened on a go-around (or other event) there will always be a certain percentage of passengers that think you are lying to them."

The problem is that we are lied to so much that we no longer know where the explanation ends and the bull starts.


User currently offlineFly_emirates From United Arab Emirates, joined Oct 2000, 1046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 767 times:

MD88Captain,

you are absolutely right, one time on emirates airlines me and my fellow crew filed a complaint against one of the pilots because he didnt tell us that we were 40 minuites ahead of schedule, and didnt give us enough time to clean up and secure the galley, and instead he cracked down the plane with a hard landing. i took my jump seat few seconds before touchdown, Nadya, the assistan purser on economy was standing while landing. we just contacted the appropriate personnel and they took care of it. if it wasnt a safety issue, then why would we bitch on passengers to fasten their seat belts during take off and landing??


User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6202 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 701 times:

The only reason why they probably wouldn't tell the "whole truth" is when it's clearly the pilot's fault (i.e. forgot to complete checklist item or something). It's probably better to reassure the passengers that all is well (even if it's not completely true) than to give the impression that the crew may be incompetent.


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 699 times:

Sure would be nice if people would stop questioning everything that pilots do and let them fly the plane.


09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6202 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 694 times:

Sure would be nice if people would stop questioning everything that pilots do and let them fly the plane.

That's why there's a big locked door separating them for everybody else!  Smile



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4041 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 685 times:

Jhooper,

Must agree with you there. I've heard pilots blaming things on atc or the ground staff etc. that was clearly their fault. Seems they find it hard to hold up their hands and admit they screwed up.

Like the A321 that pulled onto the wrong stand at LHR (a stand that an A321 is NOT certified to use) and just missed the wing of a another of the company 737's by about 1.5 ft, and the other wing was actually in the inter-stand roadway, and blamed that on ATC, when we clearly heard them tell him the correct stand number, he just taxied too fast past it, by which time it was too late, as all the other stands in that cul-de-sac were occupied.

Just last week, right outside my office window, the marshellers were bringing a Royal Brunei 763 onto stand. They signaled the a/c to stop (nothing else, just stop), just as the nose wheel had entered the stand, whilst some equipment was removed. The f/deck then shut down both engines with 3/4 of the a/c still stuck out in the taxiway !!!. I bet my A$$ they didn't admit that, bet they told the pax that the marshellers had signaled them to stop AND shut down. It did give everyone some amusement, when they had to start the no.1 up again to taxi fully onto stand. I just hope the pax were able to see all the ground crew (loaders, marshellers, us in our office) giving them a round of applause when they finally got onto stand.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineYvr74 From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 664 times:

As part of the largely uneducated flying public, about the only time we hear about civil aviation issues is with the advent of something that revolutionises air travel such as the introduction of jet aircraft, the introduction of the Boeing 747, and more recently the announcement of the A380. Aside from that, about the only thing the casual observer knows about airlines and aviation is the front headlines and news magazine glossy photos of metal shreds of what remain of aircrafts, massive infernos, and charred remains spread over a wide area after some hideous crash.

To most of us, (I'm putting myself in the category of the largely uneducated), traveling somewhere by airplane equates to a trip to the airport, boarding an aircraft & taking off, cruising for some amount of time, and then landing without incident. Anything other than this is non-routine, and in the mind of many people who are not in the know, non-routine is synonymous with "not good at all" and conjures up images of what has been read and viewed from the media.

I would never have thought in a million years that something as simple as a galley not being secured would indeed be sufficient to cause a go around, and furthermore I never would have assumed that go arounds were inconsequential in the grand scheme and that some pilots even enjoy them as a break from regular routine as MD88Captain explained in his first response.

The next time a go around happens on a flight I am aboard, I won't worry about it knowing what I now know. It just goes to show though, that a certain percentage of passengers who assume they are being lied to are probably not categorising pilots as bad people not to be trusted, but rather drawing conclusions from the only sources they know.


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