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No Flaps Departure? Scared The @#%^ Out Of Me!  
User currently offlineB737-112 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 891 posts, RR: 5
Posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2643 times:

It was on a AA Fokker F100 (N1420D) from Des Moines (DSM) to Dallas (DFW) operating as AAL1067. As we started our long taxi my brother and I started discussing when the flaps will come down, as we approached the end it bacame a very scary experience picturing that MD-80 (I believe it was) that went into the water many years ago because the pilot forgot the flaps. After a long takeoff roll and then about a 1000 foot roll on just the main gear the plane lumbers into the sky unwilling to leave ground effect. After we landed I asked the captain and he said it's normal on that equipment type. -Ryan

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNKP S2 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1714 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2049 times:

Not to sound like a wise guy..but were you referring to trailing edge flaps or leading edge (slats/and or flaps)? Fokker jets don't have leading edge devices. Some people confuse the two. Later.

User currently offlineB737-112 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 891 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2009 times:

I was referring to flaps in general, not one notch of trailing edge or leading edge. That's what I noticed and the pilot said. -Ryan

User currently offlineJabpilot From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 423 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1989 times:

i believe the crash you mention was a Northwest Airlines, MD-80 series jet departing Detroit-Metro. it was caused by not using the "leading edge slats" for the takeoff and it crashed just after lifting out of ground effect. i believe the FAA ruled the crash "pilot error" and thought it may have been caused by distractions in the cockpit while there was excessive talking going on between the flight crew and a flight attendant.

User currently offlineBritnet From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1970 times:

At our local airport The KLMuk F100's flying out of there never have the flaps down.

User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12565 posts, RR: 35
Reply 5, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1914 times:

A 767 can takeoff with the flaps at one and I've been in an Emirates A310 where the flaps were up, but the slats only extended.

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1891 times:

I belive that on the MD-80 type most of the lift is generated not by the flaps but the leading edge slats.........

A safe takeoff can be made with any aircraft type with the flaps up......The aircraft just has to accelerate to a speed where the "clean" wing is able to generate more life then the aircraft weight........With most jet airliners that would require takeing off from a very large dry lakebed instead of the average airport runway in order to get enough speed.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineHawaiiB777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

I had a no slats/flaps departure from Buffalo, NY in a United 737-200. It really startled me, when we were rolling, I thought of Northwest flight 255 (the DTW crash). The roll didn't seem that long, though.

User currently offlineJet Setter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1840 times:

Just to add my, 2 Bob,
Don't know what happened but F100s have no leading edge slats at all. On T/O the leading edges are most important, if the load was light and the runway long I expect a flaps zero T/O was OK. The F28/F70/F100 are however vulnerable in icing conditions - see the Air BC F28 crash at Dryden and the US Air F28 crash at La Guardia.


User currently offlineBruce From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5066 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1803 times:

Just wondering...was it a light flight? Light load or full max. capacity?

I'd guess it was light...and with the light weight they can go for zero flaps.

I bet if it was fully loaded they'd need flaps, right?

Bruce



Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
User currently offlineN949WP From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2000, 1437 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1795 times:

Aeroflot's A310's are regularly seen taking off from HKG on the non-stop flight to Moscow with flaps retracted, even on hot days!! Wonder if it had more to do with the load factor than the aircraft's performance.


User currently offlineLeon From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1790 times:

If you watch wings like me on taxi out, you must hate waiting for the last-second deployment of slat and flaps. I prefer to fly Fokker aircraft for that reason. Gets rid of the suspense. Who needs another Northwest-like pilot error.

User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5915 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1797 times:

I hope you haven't given up on getting a straight answer. I was on an American F100 flight from ATL to DFW (number 530 or 570, I think) and the plane was FULL. There was not one empty seat on that plane. We took off without any flaps. I was with my grandfather, and it scared both of us to the point of saying our goodbyes. We took off uneventfully, however, and enjoyed a smooth flight home.
Randy


User currently offlineTr1492 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1776 times:

Not too long ago I took a USAirways F-100 from PHI-ALB, the plane was full and we also took off w/zero flaps! And yes, it scared the heck out of me, too!!! The takeoff roll and climbout were normal. On approach, the pilot used 48 degrees (I believe) of flaps (USAir's F-100's have the flap angle indicators marked off on the wing so all can see them). I, too, tried finding out how this was possible with a full plane (probably not much fuel onboard for the short flight, though!) - does the F-100 generate that much lift without flaps??? Pretty neat, although a little disconcerting!!!

User currently offlineAA777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2544 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1778 times:

Well once the pilot left the ailerons in the full left bank position even during the takeoff roll(MD-80) ... i thought the plane was gonna bank left, clip the wing and there i would go in a big fire ball...but we were fine... ( the ailerons moved to the normal position after we were about halfway down the takeoff roll.) I know that doesnt have anything to do with flaps...but it still scared me...
-AA777


User currently offlineHappy-flier From Canada, joined Dec 1999, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1775 times:

I have an example from when I used to fly frequently on Air Canada's DC-9's. Trailing edge flaps were usually extended for takeoff, but I do remember one instance where on taxi the crew extended the flaps to about 30 degrees and then retracted them up to 0 degrees just prior to takeoff. I don't recall the ground run length, but I do know that with the compulsory forward slats deployed and 0 trailing edge, our takeoff was very steep indeed. I would think that this technique would be perfectly fine on days when your headwind is high and the load is relatively light.

Don't know if a DC-8 could do it though...

Best...



May the wind be always at your back . . . except during takeoff & landing.
User currently offlineN754PR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1767 times:

I saw a Philippine 744 try this once !!, off course as soon as he applied the power he took it off again. I guess all kinds of alarms must have gone off !!

Daryl


User currently offlineIlyushin96M From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 2609 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1749 times:

I think this has more to do with the design of the wing. I know both the Fokker F100 and Airbus A310 have a special high-lift design. Any other aircraft use it?

User currently offlineBruce From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5066 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1753 times:

I thought the 727 has a "high-lift" wing design but has anyone ever seen a 727 take off with no flaps??

It must have something to do with the aircraft's design.



Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2969 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1753 times:

This happened to me on a flight from MCI to MSP. The pilot actually came over the intercom and announced that we would be making a flaps up takeoff, and that it was a rare occurance. This probably had to do with the fact that we had a 9,000 foot runway, and about 3 pax on board.


The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineShankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1547 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1731 times:

Have flown KLMUK's F100's out of Stansted, London with no trailing edge flap selected and am still here. Don't forget flaps cause drag as well. Taking off with landing configured flaps wouldn't be too healthy either. I'd only get worried if they weren't extended for landing


L1011 - P F M
User currently offlineB737-112 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 891 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1731 times:

To Bruce, the high-lift design on the 727 comes from the flaps/slats themselves, so I'm pretty sure a 727 would be unsuccessful even at the longest runways without them. Here's the info on my flight! Total fuel on board = 13,824lbs with a ramp weight of 85,257lbs, which means it was almost totally full. -Ryan

User currently offlineDL_mech From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1979 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1725 times:

AA777- The ailerons and elevators on DC-9s and MD-80s are controlled by the small control tabs mounted on the surface itself. The tab controls surface movement by moving in an opposite direction of the desired surface position. You can rotate the control wheel in the cockpit and all you will move are the tabs on the ailerons. The ailerons will become faired when there is enough airflow across them. This is why you saw the ailerons in a turn and then straighten themselves out during the takeoff roll.


This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
User currently offlineBoeing727 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (14 years 9 months 5 days ago) and read 1700 times:

I have been travelling on numerous AA F100 and I have yet to see any flaps extended for take-off. I have been on full and long flights and those darn things never come down for T/O....

Boeing727


User currently offlineScotty From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 1999, 1875 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (14 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1681 times:

Today I watched a KLMuk F100 and a British Midland F100 take off from Edinburgh. They are so laid back its unreal. But some of my best flights have been on these aircraft and they are excellent. I once flew on an Avianova F70 ex Florence and they are equally laid back on take off.

25 Wannabe : Can anyone get a hold of an F-100 checklist and settle the question?
26 AAR90 : I flew as AA F100 FO in BNA 1995-1996. At that time AA's F100 standard procedure was to use Flaps-8 for all takeoffs unless conditions did not permit
27 B737-112 : Do you remember what speed was used on that approach? Also, what type do you fly now?
28 AAR90 : >Do you remember what speed was used on that approach? 150-160 knots I think. Been a long time ago. >Also, what type do you fly now? Captain, MD90.
29 Post contains images Dnalor : I think the main reason you saw the ailerons activated was that the pilot was performing a cross wind take off, which requires less aileron as speed i
30 KALB : I have flown on USAIRWAYS F-100 several times. I remember a ALB-CLT flight was no-flaps take-off. No problem. I believe SAAB S-340 uses no flaps for t
31 Post contains links and images MD-90 : Flaps are primarily used for landings. Even with spoilers, thrust reversers, and brakes, stopping an airliner is hard work. It's easier to firewall th
32 Post contains links and images MD-90 : I didn't mean to offend anybody with the jibe about not being pilots. The Kolb ultralight I fly doesn't even HAVE flaps. Of course, it has a very effi
33 KALB : MD-90 is right. Great Article on the venerable three-holer by Len Morgan. Delta flies only 727-200 into ALB from ATL and CVG. UA morning departure ALB
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