B737-112 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 891 posts, RR: 5 Posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2693 times:
It was on a AA Fokker F100 (N1420D) from Des Moines (DSM) to Dallas (DFW) operating as AAL1067. As we started our long taxi my brother and I started discussing when the flaps will come down, as we approached the end it bacame a very scary experience picturing that MD-80 (I believe it was) that went into the water many years ago because the pilot forgot the flaps. After a long takeoff roll and then about a 1000 foot roll on just the main gear the plane lumbers into the sky unwilling to leave ground effect. After we landed I asked the captain and he said it's normal on that equipment type. -Ryan
Jabpilot From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2039 times:
i believe the crash you mention was a Northwest Airlines, MD-80 series jet departing Detroit-Metro. it was caused by not using the "leading edge slats" for the takeoff and it crashed just after lifting out of ground effect. i believe the FAA ruled the crash "pilot error" and thought it may have been caused by distractions in the cockpit while there was excessive talking going on between the flight crew and a flight attendant.
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29885 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 1941 times:
I belive that on the MD-80 type most of the lift is generated not by the flaps but the leading edge slats.........
A safe takeoff can be made with any aircraft type with the flaps up......The aircraft just has to accelerate to a speed where the "clean" wing is able to generate more life then the aircraft weight........With most jet airliners that would require takeing off from a very large dry lakebed instead of the average airport runway in order to get enough speed.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
HawaiiB777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1910 times:
I had a no slats/flaps departure from Buffalo, NY in a United 737-200. It really startled me, when we were rolling, I thought of Northwest flight 255 (the DTW crash). The roll didn't seem that long, though.
Jet Setter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1890 times:
Just to add my, 2 Bob,
Don't know what happened but F100s have no leading edge slats at all. On T/O the leading edges are most important, if the load was light and the runway long I expect a flaps zero T/O was OK. The F28/F70/F100 are however vulnerable in icing conditions - see the Air BC F28 crash at Dryden and the US Air F28 crash at La Guardia.
N949WP From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2000, 1437 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1845 times:
Aeroflot's A310's are regularly seen taking off from HKG on the non-stop flight to Moscow with flaps retracted, even on hot days!! Wonder if it had more to do with the load factor than the aircraft's performance.
Leon From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 1840 times:
If you watch wings like me on taxi out, you must hate waiting for the last-second deployment of slat and flaps. I prefer to fly Fokker aircraft for that reason. Gets rid of the suspense. Who needs another Northwest-like pilot error.
AA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5980 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 1847 times:
I hope you haven't given up on getting a straight answer. I was on an American F100 flight from ATL to DFW (number 530 or 570, I think) and the plane was FULL. There was not one empty seat on that plane. We took off without any flaps. I was with my grandfather, and it scared both of us to the point of saying our goodbyes. We took off uneventfully, however, and enjoyed a smooth flight home.
Tr1492 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 1826 times:
Not too long ago I took a USAirways F-100 from PHI-ALB, the plane was full and we also took off w/zero flaps! And yes, it scared the heck out of me, too!!! The takeoff roll and climbout were normal. On approach, the pilot used 48 degrees (I believe) of flaps (USAir's F-100's have the flap angle indicators marked off on the wing so all can see them). I, too, tried finding out how this was possible with a full plane (probably not much fuel onboard for the short flight, though!) - does the F-100 generate that much lift without flaps??? Pretty neat, although a little disconcerting!!!
AA777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2551 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1828 times:
Well once the pilot left the ailerons in the full left bank position even during the takeoff roll(MD-80) ... i thought the plane was gonna bank left, clip the wing and there i would go in a big fire ball...but we were fine... ( the ailerons moved to the normal position after we were about halfway down the takeoff roll.) I know that doesnt have anything to do with flaps...but it still scared me...
Happy-flier From Canada, joined Dec 1999, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1825 times:
I have an example from when I used to fly frequently on Air Canada's DC-9's. Trailing edge flaps were usually extended for takeoff, but I do remember one instance where on taxi the crew extended the flaps to about 30 degrees and then retracted them up to 0 degrees just prior to takeoff. I don't recall the ground run length, but I do know that with the compulsory forward slats deployed and 0 trailing edge, our takeoff was very steep indeed. I would think that this technique would be perfectly fine on days when your headwind is high and the load is relatively light.
Don't know if a DC-8 could do it though...
May the wind be always at your back . . . except during takeoff & landing.
Spacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 3016 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 1803 times:
This happened to me on a flight from MCI to MSP. The pilot actually came over the intercom and announced that we would be making a flaps up takeoff, and that it was a rare occurance. This probably had to do with the fact that we had a 9,000 foot runway, and about 3 pax on board.
Shankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1781 times:
Have flown KLMUK's F100's out of Stansted, London with no trailing edge flap selected and am still here. Don't forget flaps cause drag as well. Taking off with landing configured flaps wouldn't be too healthy either. I'd only get worried if they weren't extended for landing
B737-112 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 891 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1781 times:
To Bruce, the high-lift design on the 727 comes from the flaps/slats themselves, so I'm pretty sure a 727 would be unsuccessful even at the longest runways without them. Here's the info on my flight! Total fuel on board = 13,824lbs with a ramp weight of 85,257lbs, which means it was almost totally full. -Ryan
DL_mech From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 2035 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (14 years 11 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 1775 times:
AA777- The ailerons and elevators on DC-9s and MD-80s are controlled by the small control tabs mounted on the surface itself. The tab controls surface movement by moving in an opposite direction of the desired surface position. You can rotate the control wheel in the cockpit and all you will move are the tabs on the ailerons. The ailerons will become faired when there is enough airflow across them. This is why you saw the ailerons in a turn and then straighten themselves out during the takeoff roll.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
Scotty From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 1999, 1875 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (14 years 11 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1731 times:
Today I watched a KLMuk F100 and a British Midland F100 take off from Edinburgh. They are so laid back its unreal. But some of my best flights have been on these aircraft and they are excellent. I once flew on an Avianova F70 ex Florence and they are equally laid back on take off.
: Can anyone get a hold of an F-100 checklist and settle the question?
: I flew as AA F100 FO in BNA 1995-1996. At that time AA's F100 standard procedure was to use Flaps-8 for all takeoffs unless conditions did not permit
: Do you remember what speed was used on that approach? Also, what type do you fly now?
: >Do you remember what speed was used on that approach? 150-160 knots I think. Been a long time ago. >Also, what type do you fly now? Captain, MD90.
: I think the main reason you saw the ailerons activated was that the pilot was performing a cross wind take off, which requires less aileron as speed i
: I have flown on USAIRWAYS F-100 several times. I remember a ALB-CLT flight was no-flaps take-off. No problem. I believe SAAB S-340 uses no flaps for t
: Flaps are primarily used for landings. Even with spoilers, thrust reversers, and brakes, stopping an airliner is hard work. It's easier to firewall th
: I didn't mean to offend anybody with the jibe about not being pilots. The Kolb ultralight I fly doesn't even HAVE flaps. Of course, it has a very effi
: MD-90 is right. Great Article on the venerable three-holer by Len Morgan. Delta flies only 727-200 into ALB from ATL and CVG. UA morning departure ALB