Pressclub From Belgium, joined Nov 2001, 775 posts, RR: 5 Posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7715 times:
A good Belgian newspaper anounced today that SN Brussels Airlines is ready with its expansion plan.
They will add three 130 seat aircraft to the AVRO fleet next summerseason.
It's not clear if it will be Boeing (Classic or Next Generation) or Airbus. Decision will be taken later this month by the Board but three aircraft is confirmed. Unlike the longhaul Airbus 330 operation (wetlease from Birdy), SN Brussels will operate the 130 seaters on their own.
Good news for almost 100 guys and girls in Belgium. Thanks to this fleet expansion SN Brussels is going to hire 30 to 40 first officers (for the Avro's) and almost 60 cabin crew members.
Apuneger From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 3032 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7547 times:
Thanks for the interesting news (as usual ). It seems they are taking things really seriously over there, research-wise. They have been studying this expansion for how long now, 5 months or so? Now let's hope that the economy doesn't degrade any further...
About the Airbus - Boeing thing: I can only hope they will take some Boeing aircraft. For some reason, I'm more affiliated with Boeing than with Airbus. And, you have to admit, if they would fly Airbus again, just think of all the headlines. But then again, they should only be looking at the economic performance of the aircraft I think. And if, according to them, Airbus would be better suitable than Boeing, then that's OK by me (yeah right, like I have to give them permission ).
FlyAirbus From Canada, joined Apr 2002, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7431 times:
Correct me if I'm wrong but this is all about power greed and jealousy.
Wouldn't the most logical choice be to put experienced pilots in the seat of a 737 or Airbus? Pilots ALREADY trained on the aircraft? ...WRONG! ...Not at SNBA.
SN Brussels RJ85/100 pilots are afraid that more "senior pilots" would get the jobs on the "bigger" aircraft, therefore they are going to choose the most senior amongst themselves, to go through 737/Airbus training (at what cost???).
The vacancies left behind on the RJ's would be filled by "younger" pilots. (you wouldn't want more experienced and senior pilots flying smaller aircraft while the "younger" guys fly the bigger jets, would you???)
Isn't SN Brussels short of cash?? Can't they use every cent they've got wisely? Then why go through expensive training costs (millions) while other "experienced" and "trained" ex-Sabena pilots are there, ready to fly? There are so many of them that SNBA can pay them any wage they please.
The unnecessary "rebranding" (new logo); aircraft to be repainted, ticket agencies, signs, counters, letterheads, etc... everything with the name SN Brussels Airlines all need to be redone, also an unnecessary extra cost. For what??
Makes you wonder. WHAT ARE THESE PEOPLE DOING???? What a circus!! To think they used to complain about Sabena. That was nothing compared to this. I've said it before, I'm a passenger and whitnessing it for myself eveytime I need to fly. There's never any money for anything but for the above they're willing to "throw away" millions!
Spitfire From France, joined Feb 2001, 801 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7374 times:
There surely will be a deal between unions (and BeCA) and SNBA stating that 10-15% would be young inexperimented pilots, so 10-15% of DAT pilots will "upgrade" to Boeing/Airbus. And the rest, ex-Sabena qualified and experimented pilots. I think that this way is "honnest", does not increase too much the training costs for SNBA and also give a chance to the youngest first job-seekers.
There is also a problem concerning the "seniority list" to be solved.... "Senior" ex-Sabena pilots will never accept to be put at the bottom of this list, behind all the younger DAT/SNBA pilots...
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
Flying Belgian From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 2425 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7309 times:
I'm sorry to tell you that FLYAIRBUS, but if SNBA would hire some ex-Sabena pilots it's 99.9% sure they will be on the bottom of the seniority list, simply because they have to apply the same principle they applied to the cabin crew according to the unions.
The ex-Sabena cabin crew that were hired back in April are all in the bottom of the seniority list. Even a Senior Purser with 30 years of experience is under a young purser with 1 year experience. If I was to go from DAT to Sabena previuosly I was loosing all my seniority...!!!
Really if something is acquired, if ex-Sabena pilots are hired they will fore sure start at 0 on the list.
But DO understand well that I would be very happy to see ex-Sabena pilots entering our NEW SN Brussels Airlines !!!!
Airbuspilot From Belgium, joined Apr 2000, 416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7284 times:
This most probably will be the last time that I get angry over this subject...
I have decided for myself to leave the deadly sick Belgian world of aviation behind and to go and look for the joys of living at FL350 elsewhere where the weather is hot, the pay is good and the companies are managed professionaly!
I am lucky to be able to leave for good here and with no strings attached i will start a new life However, a lot of my colleagues find themselves in situation where they can not kleave Belgium for a long period of time so you might consider this posting for their sake!
The circus that is being pulled off these days at SNBA is hilarious! On one hand they do not have enough money to fly decent airplanes, run a proper marketing campaign, have a ferquent flyer programme that is worth anything etc etc etc and on the other hand they are throwing money away on new liverys, new uniforms and unneseccary training of crews! Tell me, what good is there about new uniforms (everybody receives three I believe!!!!) when you even have not enough money to have a good inflight service!!!!! (this is not ment to be against the FAs, they have to manage it with the tools handed to them by this lousy managment)
But they like to run a good news show! Look at our loadfactors, they have gone up beyond expectation! Not to difficult if you ask me when the Belgian government buys 30% of SNBAs capacity day in day out!
And in order to have the bookks look allright they sold the LHR slots!!!Not only does this proof that a long term policy is totally inexistant because every airlines would do anything to have 8 daily LHR slots! Besides that the money they received for the slots went almost entirely to the curators of SN!!!Bad operation if you ask me!
But they keep on buying luxury cars for the managment etc etc etc....!
Now we have come to the faze where they where able to announce that they would operate MH aircraft! Waaaaw! Whichone....well, we do not know yet! Maybe 737 maybe A320......we will see!
First of all a bigger issue needs to be solved! How to prevent ex-SN pilots from enetring the new SNBA! There actually was a ban demanded by SNBA pilots! No way they would allow SN pilots in "their" company! No way they would allow direct entry captains and if possible they would even prevent FOs from entering on the MH aircraft!
If they wanted they could start on the Avro! Thats it. On the bottom of the seniority list!
Excuse me but this is outrageous! I have been passing my time the last 10 months with applying at other "real" companies and everywhere where I came a position on the seniority list was offered according to the experience I had! Nowhere I had to start on the bottom!
So this is not normal!!!!
Second of all they are facing huge training costs and for what! To feed the pride of certain frustrated pilots who always have been angry because Sabena did not want them! Now is the time to take revenge! Lets ban them....There still more than enough qualified pilots without a job on the Belgian market. But no, FOs RJ will be trained captain on the MH-->New f/os will be trained on RJ and new F/Os will be trained as FO on the MH plane!!!!
Three times a training cost of 2 miljon Bef!!!! 5 crews/airplane*2 pilots/plane*3 planes that makes at least 30 crews......That is 1.5 miljon euros all for nothing and this does not include the costs of crews having to get payed when out of rotation etc etc...
Way to go SNBA, way to go dear colleagues!!!! Keep on messing around like that and I am afraid you will end up like the ones you are trying to ban now....without a job and begging on your knees for a new one!!!
You all have no clue what its like to be without a job and you do not know what you are playing with....
Sabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2735 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7158 times:
I don't know what the problem is with you all guys?
(and with that I mean my ex-colleagues of Sabena)
Don't you get the picture then?
The correct situation is this:
SN is clearly planning to hire around 40 pilots for their fleet expansion and wants to do so by hiring new direct entry pilots (no ex-Sabena pilots as previously promised!) and on top of this they want to put them straight on the bigger B737 (which is much cheaper then train them on RJ and a have RJ pilots move to MH).
Your DAT colleagues find all this a bit too arrogant from their management and say: look, eighter you are going to hire pilots direct for the MH fleet and then you take ex-Sabena pilots (as has always been the plan), or if you do not want to hire ex-Sabena pilots (as it seems to be the case) then WE want to have those places by internal promotions and you'll have to hire new guys at the bottom of the list on RJ!
I find this quite logical from the SN Brussels pilots: they still show solidarity towards us and want to give up most if not all of their seniority places on MH for ex-Sabena pilots (mind you SN Brussels Airlines is a new company, and has nothing more to do with Sabena, so no seniority claims can be upheld), but they do not want to do the same gesture for other fresh from the book co-pilots or direct entry captains!
Your colleagues at DAT are NOT trying to keep their Sabena colleagues out of a job at all! However, you must understand that Sabena and the whole group is gone and that you can not keep all your seniority claims as if nothing happened. Try applying at Sobelair... and you'll see what I mean.
Lumumba From Belgium, joined Mar 2001, 369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7104 times:
I'm totaly agree with you .
But in the past when the Pilot's had a problem they never askd the other workers advice to star a strike!
And this was not correct so now they have a bad name they will pay it.
Because they are like the Truck drivers they are corporatist(i'm not sure it's the word in English).
Airbuspilot From Belgium, joined Apr 2000, 416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7119 times:
And please do not forget that the whole reason why SNBA saw the daylight was to help reduce the dammage done by the demise of Sabena!
I still remember the big words of our so beloved government: in januari 3000 ex sabeniens will find a new home at Snba!!!!! my a**!
I know that there are still some SNBA pilots caring about the faith of jobless colleagues and friends but hey, this is a vast minority! All the rest do not give a shit about the jobless pilots! They only care about their salary, their position and their jobsecurity!
And I still am serious when I say that a lot of them see this as an opportunity to get even with Sabena pilots....frustrated, thats all!
As a proof I will again post here an extract of their intranet....see for yourselves how far the solidaruty goes.....
Concerning the seniority list: the whole thing is based on and made by Sabena pilots!! So there are two options: you maintain the list and you let everybody have the place he or she deserves (including Sabena pilots) or you throw it away and you start a new one based on different criteria!
Now the list is mostly based on results of training at the EAC/BAS/SFA so why should a pilot be denied the place that he deserves!!!!
Get real guys......if it was not for the guys who you are now stabbing in the back you still would be flying DAT like 20 years ago! Maybe you should ask the " anciens " about what it was like back than!!!!!
And please get back on your feet....if it was not or the good sense of the curators you all would be grounded now as well! You know why I still hve not touched a dime of my " sluitingsvergoeding, opzeggingvergoeding etc etc".....because first priority was to let SNBA survive!
- Do Sep 05, 2002 12:27 am
Onderwerp: Report of the Ip Meeting of the 04/09/02
The Financial status of the company is still better than foreseen and improving.
The SNBA is consolidating its position.
The introduction of the new MH a/c will be announced officially by the end of September. The type is not defined yet (depending on the marker availability). The number is reduced versus the first rumors...
A minimum of 50% of the new MH pilots will come from Dat.
On the 17th September a press conference over SNBA will take place.
The pilots salary is not to be increased in the next future...
As the company is doing well the whole SNBA employees may expect a reward of it...
The 6 FO upgrading will undergo a new training program with SN Brussels Airlines Crewroom - Report of the Ip Meeting of the 04/09/02more accent on the captaincy.
Ex SN/Dat BAé 146 pilots are expected to rejoin the SNBA as Dat Captains will upgrade on the new MH a/c.
The problem list seems to be a little short :
What about DEMOTIVATION? LACK OF RESPECT FOR EMPLOYEES?SOCIAL IMPACT ON PILOTS AND THEIR FAMILIES AFTER THE SALARY REDUCTION ? THE LACK OF JOB SECURITY DUE TO THE FACT THAT WE HAVE NO LOSS OF LICENSE ANYMORE ? DO THEY REALIZE THE OUTCOME OF THIS IF SOMEBODY LOOSES HIS LICENSE OR HAS A MEDICAL PROBLEM, AND I COULD GO ON....
AND BY THE WAY THE PROBLEMS YOU DESCRIBED ARE THE RESULT OF ALL OF THIS, AND THE WHOLE PILOT COMMUNITY HAS ALREADY BEEN PUNISHED...
- Do Sep 05, 2002 5:05 pm
Onderwerp: Re: Report of the Ip Meeting of the 04/09/02
A minimum of 50% of the new MH pilots will come from Dat.
And the other 50% from outside? Will they get a position on the sen. list?
Btw what is Ip?
- Do Sep 05, 2002 5:44 pm
I agree on your list, but:
Getting us imposed to fly full automatics as the Brits is the last thing I want to hear about...
Let's be smart enough not to give them the reason to impose it...
Let's be professionals !!!
- Do Sep 05, 2002 6:05 pm
, for heaven's sake, what is IP?
- Do Sep 05, 2002 8:06 pm
Professionalism is something you acquire after years of hard work and motivation, self esteem and unfortunatly with our profession it is very much related to the safety of an airline operation.
This is exactly what I am trying to point out, THERE IS NO ROOM FOR BEING "UNPROFESSIONAL" in this industry and these poeple have created a very UNSAFE environment by treating us the way they did and continue to do...
Just take in consideration what most crew members discuss inside the cockpit : MONEY, JOB STABILITY, FATIGUE, OTHER JOB POSITION, FAMILY STRESS,etc ....
We should be TREATED like professionals by our employer.
There is a great saying: " You feed peanuts, you get monkeys"
- Vr Sep 06, 2002 5:39 pm
it seems to me that we are going back to 'square one'!
Again: the problems that exist today and that have a tendency to decrease the safety HAVE A DEEPER CAUSE! Repressing langauge and dito actions to restore safety have an adverse effect in the current situation (look back at the past).
( I realize you just give us an extract of the reunion so it is not a personal attack)
I guess, what we are saying for about 8 months now, is that we gave our best but we feel pretty much f**cked in the *** (Oops sorry!).
Maybe the situation exist because some of the 102 ex-SN staff have a hidden agenda and feel the should 'do' something for there colleagues stil on the ground (don't know, just a tought).
For the people I mostly fly with I say 'chapeau!!' Since the beginning we kept flying for the pax and our company keeping the punctuality and safety high regardless of how they felt and their opinion.
I guess the stress of the whole situation is taking its toll whether we like it or not ...
This extract from the reunion is very hard to read!
Maybe the management may be lucky that we do not react in the same way as the Air France pilots (yet) but we at least try to exploid all options.
Have a nice week-end
All the best,
- Za Sep 07, 2002 10:52 am
Motivation is still lacking in the pilot group. So there will not be a salary increase in the (near) future, but we can expect rewards ??!! Is that on paper or is it just another carrot?
People are leaving the company constantly. How many more are going? Who has a cv out with another company? If there are over 80 (out of our 300 pilots) cvs at just one other company then you start wondering what is going on.
For all those that have left, why not redistribute the pay amongst those that are still here? Maybe I can't add and maybe I am just naive, but a lot more people are packing their bags.
From another disgruntled pilot.
- Za Sep 07, 2002 8:43 pm
IP stands for Instructor Pilot
Demotivation is omnipresent among pilots and I am not an exception.
Nevertheless I do not accept to let my upset feelings influence the quality of my work in the cockpit.
My demotivation do influence my quantity of work into this company and on my personnal contribution into this company, being into the cockpit or not. Although it doesn't appear immediatly into the company results the pilot proactive participation into the company is an essential key.
I don't come to work to do unprofessional work.
My quantity of work and investment into this company is going to be the image of the way we are (badly) treated and payed for.
Nevertheless in the cockpit you have to stay professional otherwise you and all your colleagues may pay the bill...
I don't want to be obliged to fly full automatics ILS all year around.
- Za Sep 07, 2002 10:57 pm
Why no any response from the top now they have fully acces to this forum to give us more information about what's going on? A cancer is growing ... Nobody feels happy anymore while everything seems to go
very good ?