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Easyjet Selects Airbus  
User currently offlineDalecary From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 39259 times:

The much awaited order has been announced . I saw it on Reuters. 120 firm and 120 options.

Dale.

364 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 39034 times:

Too good to be true. Do you have a link?

Gerardo



dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineMrLineGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 39020 times:

If this is true, this is definitely a blow to Boeing and the 737NG. I would be interested in the reasoning behind choosing the A32X over the 737NG. I.E., was it price alone? Was the 737 not fitting operationally within EasyJet's structure? Should be interesting, and although I am a Boeing fan, congrats to Airbus on a job well done!

Regards
MrLineGuy



More right rudder...
User currently offlineChrisEDDL From Germany, joined Apr 2002, 67 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 39006 times:

Check out this link on easyjet's website...

http://www.easyjet.com/en/news/20021014_01.html

Very nice...

ChrisEDDL


User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 39003 times:

Doh! If only I was online earlier.

Very interesting.

Ray Webster of Easyjet Group is going to be on CNBC EUROPE in the next 13 minutes

(UK ntl:home channel 124)



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineFly-K From Germany, joined May 2000, 3153 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 38974 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Since when can you put 150 or even 156 seats into an A319?

Konstantin



Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
User currently offlineAirways From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 880 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 38961 times:

An interesting details accoding to the press release from easyJet:

"A319s will be introduced initially via easyJet's Geneva base from August 2003 operating under easyJet's Swiss air operator's licence."

So, I think we can expect the first A319s to fly on the Geneva- and Zurich-routes. What do you think, is there a special reason behind the registering under easyJet Switzerland?

Michael
http://airways.ch



User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7152 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 38945 times:

Excellent news for the European Aviation Industry. What this does to the Boeing Share Price, and to the already weak 737 production line should be interesting. With around 60 737's from Go and Easyjet coming into a very weak market, it will be interesting to see how boeing reacts with production levels.

Key points of the deal:

Firm order for 120 Airbus A319 aircraft for delivery from September 2003 over 5 years
Options with price protection on a further 120 Airbus A319 aircraft until 2012
Airbus A319 will be configured with 150 seats, with the possibility of increasing to 156, compared to 149 on the Boeing 737-700
Options for larger sized Airbus A320 and Airbus A321 at pre-agreed prices.




The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineERAU Pilot From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 38941 times:

Well I didn't see this one coming. Airbus must have made them a deal they simply couldn't refuse. I sure wouldn't want to be stuck on an A319 for very long with 156 seats squeezed in it, most airlines operate only 150 seats on the A320. But, I guess it will be interesting to see the A319 painted up in easyjet orange!

Best of luck easyjet.
ERAU Pilot


User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 38940 times:

Great news, it's about time the European low-cost airlines saw the benefits of Airbus...

I wish easyJet every success with the new bird.



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7152 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 38927 times:

They are using the Swiss operation first as it will not be affected by the changes currently happening in EasyJet regarding the merger of GO. Because of this the Pilots have only one thing to worry about.... A319 conversion.

When the UK settles down (in 18 months time or so), then will be the time to introduce the new aircraft.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineWiLdmanVzla From Mexico, joined exactly 14 years ago today! , 616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 38921 times:

That's so great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*******


User currently offlineSean-SAN- From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 770 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 38914 times:

Shocking.. I guess the folks at Boeing seriously need to consider a new family design (737 thru 767), otherwise the only people left buying Boeing will be the US military and Southwest.

-Sean


User currently offlineIkarus From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 3524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 38875 times:

The worst aviation news I've read in a while...

Well, so long easyjet. In 20 year's time, they'll be laughing at this low-cost airline that could have been No 1 in Europe and failed it all. Stelios is smart to slowly get out of it while it's still overvalued...

Somehow easyjet management seem a bit megalomanic: Taking over Go (at inflated post 11/9 prices) was a big step. Getting an option on dba would, if they go through with that merger as well, be another big step. Buying an entire fleet of aircraft of a different type to their current fleet? Could any worse management decision be made at this point? They're pretty much going to choke - overzealous expansion will ruin the airline.

Low-cost no-frills airlines were underestimated for years. Now, after the 11/9 restructuring of the airline industries, they're way overestimated and overvalued - a stock market bubble waiting to burst, like IT companies a few years ago.

Regards

Ikarus


User currently offlineAirbus_A340 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2000, 1560 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 38873 times:

This is great news! I wish Easyjet every success with their new Airbus Aircraft!

Trevor



People. They make an airline. www.cathaypacific.com
User currently offlineTullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1569 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 38850 times:

Ikarus, I think you may be half-right. Lo-cos are undoubtedly over-valued at the moment but the difference between them and the hi-techs is that lo-cos are making real money at the moment. Unfortunately the hi-techs never did.

As far as the Airbus selection is concerned, it will be a few years before we know if it the right decision. It is a point of difference between Ezy and Ryanair so it will be interesting to see who pulled the right rein.



717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 38858 times:

I think they looked at the success of JetBlue and Frontier and that helped decide for them.

While I too wonder about the kind of cabin you'll get with 150 pax in an A319, do not forget that it will be a single class cabin.
And huge numbers of seats are not that uncommon. Charter layouts regularly put 20% more seats in an aircraft than would be feasible in a regular layout (and lowcost nofrills carriers like Easyjet operate similar cabins usually).
For example, SobelAir puts about 270 pax in a 767-300, where KLM (also not known for the very roomy interiors) gets no further than about 220.
Just going to single class will gain you about 50% extra seats in the part of the cabin that would otherwise hold the businessclass seats.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 38832 times:

270 in a 767-300? We get 328 in ours...


I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineCapt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 38786 times:

Well, it's certainly interesting news, and I never ruled out seeing an Airbus in Easyjet colours.

Deviating from the tried and proven Ryanair/Southwest model doesn't necessarily imply imminent failure (although it doesn't seem to rake as much profit).

I agree that JB was an inspiration (well, the press release/Stelios mentioned them, along with FR and WN).

According to my no-frills study aid, the JB decision to acquire Airbus 320s was based on these facts:

-24 more pax than the 737

-more legroom for pax than competing Y class cabins

-burns less fuel than the 737

-slightly wider seat bottom (!!)

Another interesting day in the aviation world.....well, it would have been a bit boring if it was just another batch of 737-700s!  Big grin


User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3750 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 38766 times:

will they have leather seats?

will they have PTV like JetBlue?

Will they have one loo at the front and toulouse at the back?

Will they not be orange?

Hope they introduce excellent cleaning regimes to keep them clean inside and outside.


User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 38755 times:

This also finally means eventually in the winter easy will be able to continue operation on those foggy days at Luton. The airport is very susceptible to fog, and it is such a shame to have all those orange 737s diverting to other airports whilst the likes of Monarch A320s and ourselves trundle on in with CATIIIb autoland...

The 73's just can't hack it in the thick fog...

Also I find the minibus a far smoother ride from a passenger point of view than the 737, flies like it's on rails...



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 38741 times:

Indeed in an article Stellios referred to Jetblue as an example they looked at.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ryan Gaddis - SPOT THIS!


Any chance Easyjet will have PTV's and leather seats like Jetblue ?


User currently offlineQatarAirways From Qatar, joined Sep 2008, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 38752 times:

Ikarus,

If your read EasyJet's statement you'll see that they won't be loosing anything by switching over from the Boeing 737 to the A319. Read the quotes below.




It is expected that the final contract would provide easyJet with a number of significant financial benefits:

- easyJet estimates substantial savings, compared to buying additional B737-700s today

- easyJet estimates the A319 would achieve an approximate 10% improvement per aircraft over the existing Boeing 737 operating cost base (measured per available seat kilometre)

- Airbus to provide extensive support so that the introduction of the A319 to be no more expensive than the B737-700 in the first two years

- Airbus backed maintenance program means cost not higher than Boeing

- Airbus assistance reduces residual value risk on remaining 10 owned B737-300s.

Basically Airbus has given them a deal they can't refuse and Boeing didn't loose by not getting this order because their B737's are already well established with other low-costs such as RyanAir and Southwest Airlines.


User currently offlineAirblue From San Marino, joined May 2001, 1825 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 38736 times:

Airbus A319 will be configured with 150 seats, with the possibility of increasing to 156

150 seats.... it seem very cramped compared to the current 144 seats used by some charter airlines.
I think it's very unlikely they will put 156 seats cause that means one more FA and 4 FA's for 156 pax are 1 every 39 pax.


User currently offlineTurin_airport From Italy, joined Oct 2001, 278 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 38674 times:

Well, it's good to see how some so called aviation fan reacts to a positive aviation news (no airline closing, no air crash, etc, but just an airline choosing a new plane...). Or is something related to that particular company based in Toulose?

T_a


25 Keesje : Perhaps the most Important for Airbus is that they undermined the Boeing promoted picture Airbus is for "expensive" carriers (SR, BA, LH, AF) and 737
26 Post contains links SAS23 : The City doesn't like this news ... EZY shares currently down 8p. http://www.londonstockexchange.com/landmark/EastAnglia/company_EastAnglia.asp?sedol=
27 RayChuang : One thing does worry me though: EADS is essentially footing the entire bill to convert from the 737 to the A319. A bill that could exceed €100,000,0
28 Thomas_Jaeger : I also expect easyJet to get the slots the are looking for at Paris Orly now. I once heard Webster would have been in Paris to talk to the transport m
29 Mia777 : and what is to happen with the 737s? It says there are keeping them to use them "interchangeably"...but that doesn't seem realistic. Don't lowfare car
30 DutchDeltaDude : By the way, I just saw the official announcement, and Easy-Jet is only stating an INTENTION to buy Airbus, but also adds that the terms of the deal st
31 Post contains images Airsicknessbag : I hear they´ll install an additional pair of overwing exits for the increased capacity. Daniel
32 Teva : About the extra seats, maybe they are going to find the space by removing some of the galleys. They sell some drinks and sandwiches. They do not serve
33 SAS23 : EZY's shares are now down 14p, after having been down 17.5p! There's a lot of uncertainty about how EZY plans to fund this purchase, and if a rights i
34 Joni : I think Airbus has thought of their own production capacity in this deal. By selling that many planes they can avoid having to trim down their produc
35 Ikarus : Mmmmh. I looked at the press release again. Basically, they say that Airbus is the preferred manufacturer - nothing been signed yet, and everything is
36 Voodoo : Two things: 1) will the 319 one day outnumber the 320? 2) I guess this order ensures Airbus wins the 2002 orderbook `race'.
37 Post contains images Godbless : I had hoped to see them go for further 737's since we have enough airlines with the A32X here in europe ny now... When I read the statement on their w
38 Soupthansa : I prefer Boeing jets anytime
39 Touchdown99 : Mmmmh. I looked at the press release again. Basically, they say that Airbus is the preferred manufacturer - nothing been signed yet, and everything is
40 Airbuspilot : For me it is good news that EZ goes for Airbus! What I do not understand is why they opted for the A319! As stated before it is quit heavy for the num
41 BR715-A1-30 : If their cabin looks as good as jetBlue's when it comes out, then it will be one helluva nice looking cabin. I was astonished when I saw B6s A320 for
42 L-188 : Well this is the way I read the situation,. Easyjet just announced to the world and Airbus that if they can keep the costs of operations of the A-319
43 Ikarus : BR715-A1-30: I remember reading somewhere that the guy who started Jetblue originally assumed he would be buying Boeing. As usual, he made enquiries t
44 Western737 : Ahhh, poor us who love to fly have to deal with Airbus' tiny window view.
45 JAL : I'm surprise that Airbus won the order, anyway congrats to them!!
46 BFS : I must admit that I am not too sure what to make of this news. For one, I was always under the impression that lo-cos like easyJet and Go (I haven't f
47 Jwenting : Easyjet is unlikely to go for such luxury items as leather seats and PTVs. Not only are they aming at another market that doesn't care for leather sea
48 Keesje : I don't think Airbus was the only one offering a "can't refuse" deal. Look what Boeing did last year buying new SQ 340's. We are talking the same Boei
49 Godbless : But for an order of 120 aircraft, with 120 options at pre-agreed (incredibly discounted) prices? That goes a bit far - so far that it seems kinda unli
50 Post contains links and images Keesje : Just stupid detail some LCC have leather seats .. Virgin View Large View MediumPhoto © Dave Faulkner View Large View MediumPhoto © Tsung Tse
51 Post contains links and images QatarAirways : BFS, Airbus offers integral airstairs in the A319CJ, I don't think it would be too difficult to implement this on the A319. Look at the photo below of
52 Post contains images Airsicknessbag : Think of leather seats as coins and non-leather seats as banknotes - the former are a lot more expensive to produce, but they last longer. So, if an a
53 Post contains images AOMlover : AMAZING NEWS !!! Thanks easyJet !!!!!
54 Post contains images Donder10 : Will Easy be selling sardine sannies from now on ?
55 Squigee : I think that both Boeing and Airbus are cutting their prices and giving in to way to many demands to "get the order". Possibly at the great expense of
56 A340-Fan : Great deal for Airbus. So we have to LCC with big orders: Ryanair: 100+ B737 Easyjet: 100+ A319 (A32X)
57 GD727 : A very stupid descision for Easyjet. They already have tons of new 737NG's, so why the hell spend all that money retraining crews when they already ha
58 Spotterboy : Its great to hear this news... I'd prefer the A320 family... I don't like the B 737's... Looks like much work for the ingeneers in Hamurg...
59 Trvlr : I don't think this will be a move that too significantly hurts EasyJet, but I believe they would have had a much easier time had they ordered 737NG's.
60 Wingman : Well, for the Airbus fans who laughed about Leary "raping" Boeing, here's to EZY positively "buggering" Airbus. They are surely receiving an even high
61 Cfalk : Industry sources (on Reuters) are saying that Easyjet has secured a discount of between 40 and 45%, along with Airbus paying the training bill. Easyje
62 Post contains links PW100 : Well Airbus now made it public as well: EASYJET GOES FOR AIRBUS A319 OCTOBER 14, 2002 easyJet, Europe’s fastest growing airline, announced today
63 Srbmod : It really is surprising that EasyJet went with Airbus, yet another loyal Boeing customer bites the dust. I guess it really is a no-brainer since the A
64 Post contains links and images BA777 : OK guys, ure in for a treat!! Made a rendition of a EZY 319, the template was a 320, but you get the idea Small (140kb) http://www.aitraffic.net/ezy32
65 Tom_eddf : Srbmod: Boeing will never end up like MDD, with their defense/space division in their back, they would be able to run their commercial aircraft busine
66 Srbmod : MDD basically survived as long as they did because of their military contracts, which were their bread and butter, but as things changed as a result o
67 Tom_eddf : I was pretty sure that the 777 was a completely new design and not based on the existing 767. The A330/340 is basicly a refinement of the TA9/11 propo
68 GDB : While this deal is a surprise, suggesting that EU governments had any influence on an operator like Easy Jet is pure delusion. As for the JetBlue comp
69 Lortab 7.5mg : The 777 is a completely new design. The only major thing in common with the 767 is that it's a twin-engine widebody. It's not a total loss for Boeing
70 Post contains images Donder10 : I'm interested to see a reference to the 321.I wonder if EZY will order some of these for use on slot-restricted routes eg Palma,Alicante?Shows some f
71 RayChuang : One thing that worries me--besides the financial issue I mentioned above--is the fact that Airbus has yet to prove it can make the A319 so it can with
72 0A340 : IKARUS: "Anyway. I still believe the deal is bad for Easyjet, and bad for Airbus." So, dear fellow, are both AB and Stelios in a self-destructing mode
73 B757300 : In other words, Airbus sold them so freaking cheap American or Continental wouldn't have said No. Maybe I'll go buy myself an A380, bet I could get it
74 Flashmeister : One thing that can always trip up a business is a radical change to their business model. I'm not sure that this change is radical, but I'd be very ne
75 Duncan : Any ideas, rumours or news on the Engine choice yet? V25 or CFM56???? DD
76 N766UA : All I see for their reasons is that the bus is comparable to the 737. It says nothing about anything actually being better. I'm not really convinced w
77 Post contains images Aamd11 : I think its time to quit with the "i hate airbus so they shouldnt have ordered them". OK, not everyone like Airbuses, on the other hand several people
78 TK : Whenever Airbus gets major orders, people here will start pointing fingers and cry how Airbus are selling their planes cheap. Has any one of you stopp
79 0A340 : Today is about as important as the day Boeing decided to pull from the 747X and 764ERX markets facing a huge loss to Airbus. IIRC, these are the only
80 Post contains images Voodoo : So what was the deal with Swissair's A32X engine choice? Did they -have- to get CFMs because of Swiss environmental laws? Were the V2500s too gassy? A
81 777236ER : In battle 1 (A388 vs 747X and A332 vs 764ERX) we saw new designs (388) and flying aicraft (332) beat the proposed derivatives of 747 and 767. In battl
82 Post contains images Ikarus : Aamd11: There is a difference between BA and easyjet. BA did not choose to add A330s, A340s, A346s, A300s and A310s. They chose the A320 and A319 / 31
83 Post contains images Tom_eddf : My bet is CFM It would make sense to have the same engine supplier for the A32X and the existing 737s. In general, i'd say that it's a good deal for A
84 Post contains images BBADXB : Great news for Airbus Industrie... & easyjet
85 Mlsrar : The 777 design was refined during the early 90s, around the same time as the A330/340 program was getting its legs. Fallacy. This is a production airf
86 Wingman : Without a doubt EZY is the winner. But I stand by my position that Airbus is dumping below cost. Where Boeing would have to pull a modest miracle to m
87 Cyprus-turkish : This certainly good news for Airbus, Europe, and aviation as a whole. Airbus narrow-body sales have proven to be very successful for several reasons,
88 Staffan : Can anyone actually show some proof that Airbus is dumping prices and wins every deal by giving away aircraft on the taxpayer's cost? Judging by the s
89 Sv11 : Anybody know how many cycles (landings/takeoffs) Easyjet operates their 737s on a daily basis. I thought that the 737 was more suited to high cycle op
90 Tullamarine : A number of early A320 uses have operated their fleets over a significant range of missions varying in length from under 1 hour to 4 hours + and have
91 RayChuang : Sv11, I believe that EasyJet (U2) operates their fleet in a similar fashion to Southwest (WN)--at least 4-5 flights per day per plane. All those takeo
92 Sv11 : Found this on southwest website (http://www.southwest.com/about_swa/press/factsheet.html) "Southwest aircraft fly an average of about eight flights pe
93 Flashmeister : Wingman has a great point: How much of this really is about cash-flow during a very expensive development project? I think more than we might believe.
94 Post contains links and images BWIA 772 : BBC world in its report said that airbus offered discounts on the aircrafts, and it figures. Easyjet must be getting those buses at dirt cheap prices
95 SAS23 : Buy one, get one free. Not tins of beans this time, but aircraft. Yesterday easyJet signed with Airbus for 120 planes, plus options for 120 more, and
96 Udo : Sure, Airbus aircraft cannot do as many cycles as B737s. Any Airbus operator has to watch their aircraft carefully so that they don't fall apart...I g
97 Post contains images Bragi : "I´m gonna offer you a deal you can´t refuse....." (from the movie Godfather)
98 Post contains links Capt.Picard : Brief BBC News report clip: http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/38340000/rm/_38340653_easyjet18_pike_vi.ram
99 Widebody : I think you need to ask airbus are they happy with the deal......no win situation that they had to win....simple as that. WB.
100 Post contains images Solnabo : Why are the B-team in here yapping about?? RyanAir´s getting 100 738´s/ SW´s getting (dont know) 737´s, so what the fuzz????? No Billy Gates in th
101 Greg : I'm probably one of the few Boeing shareholder happy that Boeing did NOT get the deal. Let Airbus suffer through this one--they won't make a dime (but
102 Racko : Boeing sold 100 (+ options) 737s to Ryanair for a price 40-45% below the list price, now Airbus sells A319s with the same discount and you complain. T
103 M27 : Greg: No, you are not the only Boeing shareholder that is happy about this! I always believed Airbus would do whatever was necessary to win this order
104 Scorpio : To all those bitching about how Airbus supposedly sell its planes at a loss, just for the hell of it: one word: RYANAIR 'nuff said
105 Post contains links Keesje : As I said before on another thread Find one Boeing project that is not govt paid on their today opening page : http://www.boeing.com/flash.html EADS w
106 Vfw614 : One thing that worries me--besides the financial issue I mentioned above--is the fact that Airbus has yet to prove it can make the A319 so it can with
107 DeanBNE : Well folks, with the A319's soon to be available 156 seats configuration by using slimline seats, it is going to put that aircraft in an even better p
108 0A340 : IKARUS: "0A340: Ooooh, an American who can do sarcasm! " Dear Ikarus - It is not sarcasm. It is reality. BA is losing in all fronts except for the 777
109 Crosswind : There have been some comments about the A320 family being unproven in intense short-haul operations, and questions about it's reliability in such a ro
110 N79969 : I hope Greg and M27 are correct. I read that part of the Airbus offer included covering incremental costs of operating a mixed 737/319 fleet. This is
111 Cloudy : Southwest once put a QuickTime video of a "growth airlines conference" (this was pre-sept 11) on its site. The CEOs of Ryanair, Easyjet, a higher up f
112 Cwapilot : As Airbus continues to slash prices on A319s (and other models), and cash-strapped, large operators such as United now owe as much or more in remainin
113 Gerardo : Crosswinds: these are very interesting datas. DOu you have an URL, where I could take a look at? Thanks in advance Gerardo
114 Cfalk : Crosswind, While I doubt that the A319 has a serious issue obout durability vs. the 737, the data that you posted does not help in that analysis. Flig
115 Post contains links Crosswind : Gerado, I'm glad someone found the information interesting! The URL of that file is: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline_data/200110/082_Airline_Type
116 Post contains links and images Crosswind : Cfalk, Yes you may have a point. But I fail to see how flight hours per day are irrelevant. Is it not significant that several airlines manage to keep
117 TP313 : 1. It is sad that with a few notable exceptions the critics of this deal that post on this thread engage in nothing more than mindless Airbus bashing.
118 LJ : When are they going to actually start concentrating on making money and maintaining the asset value of their customers? (See the related post for more
119 Artsyman : Why would boeing change the 737ng series, if it isnt broke, then why fix it ?, they are great planes, changes should be made because they are needed,
120 Cfalk : Crosswind, Hours per day give you a good idea of utilization. A plane sitting on the ground 20 hours per day cannot earn much money. But it is irrelev
121 0A340 : Artsyman "Why would boeing change the 737ng series, if it isnt broke, then why fix it ?, they are great planes, changes should be made because they ar
122 N79969 : Boeing has to gingerly tread in the new product area. If they announce a 737NG replacement, fewer customers will want to buy 737NGs thus depriving the
123 N79969 : Boeing has to gingerly tread in the new product area. If they announce a 737NG replacement, fewer customers will want to buy 737NGs thus depriving the
124 Artsyman : N79969, What do you suggest they do at Boeing. You brought up a lot of series that I was not refering to, I was refering to the 737ng series. I cannot
125 0A340 : N79969 What do you suggest they do at Boeing. You brought up a lot of series that I was not refering to, I was refering to the 737ng series. I cannot
126 Mlsrar : Boeing thinks and feels that the 717-200, 767-400, 757-300, 747XQLR, 737-900, and all other derivatives in their porftolio are indeed great aircraft.
127 0A340 : Mlsrar With such insight into what Boeing feels about their commercial product array implicitly Oh, no. I just live by major Boeing marketing offices
128 Artsyman : Once again, you have just stated that the order book validates your point, but how about making a suggestion as opposed to just saying they need to ch
129 Hkgspotter1 : This is so funny. The way the B***** fans just can't accept when A**** get business. Ryanair got a 100 + deal and so have Airbus with Easyjet, whats t
130 Artsyman : This is so funny. The way the B***** fans just can't accept when A**** get business. I agree completely, whats the big deal, just don't start writing
131 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : "No matter how important market share is, a company that has to make it on its own can't sell below cost for very long! " Unless the friendly EU rep.
132 DeanBNE : Once again, you have just stated that the order book validates your point, but how about making a suggestion as opposed to just saying they need to ch
133 Dc10guy : I hope easy jet falls flat on its ass ... Rock on Ryanair....
134 Post contains images GunFighter 6 : Dont you to like these Airbus vs Boeing comps hehe... let me do my share Airbus rocks, to hell with boeing..... cheers mates.
135 Capt.Picard : Well, I'm glad I'm just a passenger.........I love flying in both! I love the 737-800 flightdeck (had a great opportunity to jumpseat on Ryanair 738 t
136 N79969 : Jeremy and OA340, I actually was not suggesting that Boeing mess with the 737NG. Rather I was responding to all of those people saying that Boeing nee
137 Post contains images Sabena 690 : A question: are those additional aircrafts, or are they going to phase out their 737 fleet? Sorry if the answer is somewhere here in the topic, but I
138 N79969 : They are going to phase out the oldest 737-300s and keep the new 737-700s. They still have four of the latter aircraft on firm order. Part of the Airb
139 Sabena 690 : Thanks N79969! Regards, Frederic
140 RickB : N79969 - just for reference the KC135 flew a couple of years before the commercial 707 - the KC135 design was modified to become the 707 !! Back to th
141 Sabena 690 : BTW: is there a chance that they come to BRU? Regards, Frederic
142 Mlsrar : Oh, no. I just live by major Boeing marketing offices (Arlington, VA). As to how do I know, it's very simpe: I read their marketing announcements. Jus
143 Wingman : People here are talking about the "old age" of the 737 again when this had absolutely no bearing on the decision. The Airbus deal was $500M less than
144 N79969 : Well said Wingman. Now take cover.
145 Keesje : Wingman, blaming governement support is always the easy way out. No, more painfull : it was the best aircraft. Apart from that Boeing receives billion
146 0A340 : Engage in fact. I'll be more than happy to sypply Fact: Public statement by Boeing http://www.boeing.com/news/breakingnews/2002/021014g.html Summary:
147 Mlsrar : Summary: "Our product is better, we lost to A's lower prices". Not a hint of even a possibility that "well, may be their product is better, afterall".
148 N79969 : Keesje, Boeing sells to the Pentagon. They are not getting money and sending nothing back. Don't forget the future linchpin of European military airli
149 Joni : Wingman, N79969, "Airbus is freed from market pressure, excused from development costs, pardoned from taxation". Oh, sweet. It sounds like it's reall
150 0A340 : Mlsrar - Tell me more how come ElAl was not allowed to order the A332 even though that's what they wanted... - Don't confuse Boeing's military, space,
151 N79969 : Joni, I completely accept the fact that Airbus made the better and unbeatable offer. Besides a low airframe cost, they have assumed 100% of the risk a
152 N79969 : The 773ER has six customers and not six orders. I count 46 orders on Boeing's web site.
153 United Airline : So what's the market share for both companies?
154 RickB : N79969, I think you will find that the original market for airliners was fairly global both pre and post war. The fact that a completely new commercia
155 LJ : EZY planes were sold below cost. No comparison is possible to Ryanair because the cost of crew training and airframe mods is enormous, that's exactly
156 RickB : One thing I would like to say is that this is one of the best topics on here for sometime - N79969 comes out with some good stuff as does Joni etc. -
157 N79969 : Laurens. We cannot file anything with the WTO. We shot ourselves in the foot over steel and farm products. Horrible move on our part. There has been e
158 LJ : BTW according to EADS the deal is cash positive "thanks to progressive and significant customer advance payments." They also expect the order to contr
159 Post contains images Udo : Amen, Wingman. You could perfectly perform as a preacher for Boeing and tell the world how evil Airbus and the f.... Europeans are. Your Boeing-Star W
160 Srbmod : Actually, Boeing and Airbus have seen orders and deliveries slip. With the entire airline industry being in flux, many airlines are either cancelling
161 N79969 : I think Srbmod is correct in pointing out that someone is going to pay for EasyJet's discount. I am sure this deal will be cash positive for Airbus fo
162 Cfalk : Anyone who complains about Boeing's military contracts should take a look at Airbus Owners EADS and Bae's financials. They depend as much on military
163 Joni : N79969, Airbus's total margin is a public figure, and if they ruin it by selling under cost then it will be evident for everyone to see. Presently th
164 N79969 : Joni, I think no one disputes that the actual Airbus manufacturing process is actually very efficient. I certainly do not dispute it. But Airbus is m
165 Post contains links AirOrange : We have add the A319 in easyJet colours. Look at the home page of http://www.liladesign.com and hover over the green sign "announcement". Regards, Air
166 Staffan : Europe is EVIL. The European taxpayers are forking out billions of money for Airbus to develop and build aircraft that fall apart mid-air, that don't
167 Ikarus : Europe is EVIL. The European taxpayers are forking out billions of money for Airbus to develop and build aircraft that fall apart mid-air, that don't
168 Voodoo : Airbus v. Boeing yadda yadda To talk about something `new': I seem to recall Airbus offered EZY the 319 with extra (320 style) emergency exits over th
169 Capt.Picard : 'The "Me too" attitude sucks You gottit, as they like to say on the other side of the pond. What amuses me is the European GPS thingy they want to bui
170 Wingman : EADS comapnioes receive more military subsidies than Boeing. Wake up Airbus supporters. Airbus gets more on the military side ON TOP of the civilian c
171 Udo : And again, AMEN! Hey Wingman, come on, don't shout around, just go ahead and tell the guys in DC to wake up. Maybe "Bubble-U" will bomb us just like a
172 Ovelix : Very interesting thread, very interesting. Reading all these I learned that EU is an evil entity that backs financially its aircraft company with the
173 QatarAirways : Wingman, Your government isn't doing much because if they raise an Issue with the WTO over Airbus "subsidies" the EU will retaliate by complaining abo
174 Scorpio : Wingman, EADS comapnioes receive more military subsidies ...yadda yadda yadda bitch bitch bitch... exporting company. And you no doubt have numbers to
175 Joni : N79969, Saying that they don't have to amortize r&d expenses is very inaccurate. The A300/310 program was heavily subsidized, that being effectively
176 Mlsrar : Your beloved and brainless president will launch a war in no time to make you forget about everything. Absolute relevance to the topic I see. Must be
177 Mlsrar : Guess you missed the ~100 orders, during which time the 747 pax versions sold something less than a handful. Well, your incorrect reference was to ord
178 N79969 : Joni, I do believe that the A320 program has a positive ROI. It is a great product and sells well. I do not believe the same is true for 300/310/330/3
179 RayChuang : I think the reason why the original A300B series wasn't that big a seller was the fact given the size of the plane, a lot of airports weren't ready to
180 0A340 : RayChuang, I am going to question your logic here. I think the reason why the original A300B series wasn't that big a seller was the fact given the si
181 Wingman : EADS gets more military subsidies than Boeing, pure unadulterated fact. Look it up yourself. And I'll always go back to the most insightful question e
182 M27 : Wonder what the next objective is for Airbus? Could it perhaps be southwest? I wonder what kind of a price they could get for a complete switch over t
183 Ikarus : May be, I humbly say may be, it was chosen on technical merits, as being better than the competition, not just as being the only choice. What do you
184 N79969 : I don't care at all when I read that the Airbus A3-whatever is better than a Boeing B7-whatever. It may or may not be true in a given situation. It's
185 0A340 : Ikarus At the time, LH, AF, IB and AZ were all government owned airlines - flag carriers. They initially bought Airbus because that was the official l
186 N79969 : OA340, Bad comparison. Back in 70s, 80s, and early 90s. Airbus and the flag carriers were in the same hands- the respective national governments. That
187 0A340 : MARTINAIR SELECTS THE A320 OCTOBER 17, 2002 After an intensive evaluation process, the Dutch carrier Martinair has selected Airbus’ single-aisle
188 Sllevin : The things that concern me may be more related to my exposure to the 'tech wreck' here in the US, especially in regards to companies bleeding money in
189 Voodoo : Nobody knows if EZY's 319s will have 4 emerg. exits over the wings? By the way AI's next target is Spirit AL.
190 Joni : N79969, Why is it significant to you, where the money is borrowed from? I have a feeling that if they sold bonds, you'd suspect it was the French gov
191 Mlsrar : By the way AI's next target is Spirit AL Look like the price of a 319 is about to dip below aftermarket MD-82s.
192 RickB : Wingman, I would certainly be interested in details of EADS receiving more in military spending than Boeing - could you please post details and links.
193 Gerardo : ..... and while at that, I would also like to know the amount of subsidies for Boeing thru Exim Banks, which has been qualified as illegal by the WTO
194 L-188 : I love listening to morons try and claim that the military paid for the 707. Boeing funded the 367-80 prototype, doesn't anybody remember Bill betting
195 RayChuang : Reminder: By the time the 320 appeared as a choice (EIS 04/1988), there were alternatives: the MD-80 (EIS 09/80) & the 734 (EIS 10/88). No need to rus
196 0A340 : Reminder: By the time the 320 appeared as a choice (EIS 04/1988), there were alternatives: the MD-80 (EIS 09/80) & the 734 (EIS 10/88). No need to rus
197 Post contains images Keesje : I would certainly be interested in details of EADS receiving more in military spending than Boeing - could you please post details and links. ..... an
198 Post contains images Ikarus : Airbus just makes more modern and economical Aircraft these days At least someone has a sense of humour! The best joke I've heard in a while! Regards
199 0A340 : Keesje Airbus just makes more modern and economical Aircraft these days Ikarus At least someone has a sense of humour! The best joke I've heard in a w
200 N79969 : Joni, The nature of the lender is incredibly important. Let's think about this for a moment. Volkswagen, Boeing, Ericsson, Nokia, General Motors, or a
201 AvObserver : This was hands-down a no brainer for Easyjet, given that Airbus is picking up the tab on so many fronts. But, yet again, it calls Airbus finances into
202 David_itl : But, yet again, it calls Airbus finances into serious question, just HOW can they bend so far for a customer. And what, exactly, did Boeing do with th
203 N79969 : Boeing did cut a huge deal to Ryanair. But there are some crucial differences between the two deals. Airbus is paying for costs resulting from a mixed
204 Sterne82 : From what I've seen in this topic, lots of people over here are really narrow minded guys which seems to need to evacuate the pressure of the day by b
205 Wingman : Sorry guys, no time to look up the hard numbers, but the very fact that the four member companies of Airbus have a larger combined military business t
206 Staffan : "Sorry guys, no time to look up the hard numbers" But you have time to make countless posts against Airbus, sounds like a bad loser to me.. low...very
207 AvObserver : Username: David_itl posts: "And what, exactly, did Boeing do with the Ryanair deal? One hestitates to suggest this as a reason: ..their ultimate aim i
208 Post contains images Rickb : Wingman, Just for reference, 20% of Airbus revenue is from military orders, leaving 80% which comes from civilian projects (figures taken from Airbus
209 Post contains links Lamyl_hhlco : That must be a hit for the Boeing company which i support ! I still don't understand why Easyjet "a long time Boeing User" has decided to go by the ai
210 Srbmod : We would not be having this discussion at all if one important event had not happened. Had Airbus not offered the A300 at such a sweet deal to Eastern
211 RayChuang : Srbmod, Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas didn't take Airbus seriously at that time because Airbus was offering only the A300B and its close derivative, th
212 Mlsrar : Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas didn't take Airbus seriously at that time because Airbus was offering only the A300B Not many others were taking showing
213 L.1011 : I thought easyJet was a good airline. Obviously they've made a bad decision.
214 Wingman : Point of clarification. When you include BAe in the mix, "Airbus" member companies have larger milirary revenue than Boeing, I'd sayt by about $3-4B.
215 Cfalk : Wingman, Airbus is a front company for EADS, which owns 80% of Airbus, and British Aerospace, which owns the other 20%. EADS and BAe are also supplier
216 Gerardo : Just a question: As far as I know, BAe defense is not part of EADS, whereas Boeing has all under the same roof: civil and defense. Is that so? If the
217 Joni : N79969, I still don't see your point regarding the loans from governments. Is it an article of faith to you that corporations should borrow money fro
218 Rickb : Wingman, Airbus does not receive more in military spending than Boeing - the fact that Boeings military income is very nearly as big as Airbus itself
219 Cfalk : Airbus does not receive more in military spending than Boeing - the fact that Boeings military income is very nearly as big as Airbus itself proves th
220 Joni : Cfalk, Thank you for your text on how higher risk drives up the costs of borrowing money. However, I don't think that that is unknown to the particip
221 Mlsrar : Joni, The clause in the EU/US convention does limit the incentives the respective governments can apply towards industrial productivity which would re
222 Post contains images Cfalk : Joni, I didn't mean to talk down to people. I expect that most of you know the mechanics of the debt markets - I wanted to explain the way it works fo
223 Post contains images Joni : Cfalk, If you feel I'm making the same point you are, then perhaps we're moving toward agreement I wrote governments don't use the same analysis, but
224 RickB : Cfalk, one error in your text though is the constant mentioning of 'low interest loans', as mandated in the 1992 agreement, these loans have to be at
225 N79969 : Cfalk, nice job trying to explain this loan issue. Joni, The bottom line is that you or I or virtually any other company must go to a commercial lende
226 N79969 : "Cfalk, one error in your text though is the constant mentioning of 'low interest loans', as mandated in the 1992 agreement, these loans have to be at
227 Joni : N79969, Would you care to share with us your analysis on how the "EU taxpayer" is getting an artificially low return on their money? I dare guess tha
228 N79969 : Joni, It is very, very simple. Blindingly simple. You can deduce 100-percent of this by reading the newspaper. No need to be a CFA to figure this one
229 Joni : N76696, You are again stating as fact things you in fact don't know for a fact. Banks can hardly complain if I or anybody else borrows money from els
230 Cfalk : Joni, RickB, Can you explain then, if the project was commercially viable, why Airbus got loans from the government? There are dozens, even hundreds o
231 Viscount : What I feel is most important in the business of flying is always the customer. Of those of you who fly regularly, like I do, for business or pleasure
232 N79969 : Joni, "You are again stating as fact things you in fact don't know for a fact. Banks can hardly complain if I or anybody else borrows money from elsew
233 Post contains links LJ : You can deduce 100-percent of this by reading the newspaper. No need to be a CFA to figure this one out or to be on the "inside of the deal" or "privy
234 M27 : "They do pay above Libor"_ "You just don't know what goes on at EADS/AIRBUS unless you either work for their investment bank or the treasury departmen
235 RickB : Guys, we are talking about 33.3% of the development costs can be provided by governments - the remaining two thirds must be financed by the same metho
236 N79969 : LJ, It's no joke. I simply am pointing out that the commercial sector is not financing the A380s development hence I deduce that governments are stepp
237 RickB : N79969 - thats my point - only a third of the development funds are coming from Governments - the rest comes from normal sources like financial instit
238 N79969 : RickB, At you least you recognize the difference between a government and a bank. I don't mean that in a condescending manner but many here refuse to
239 LJ : Someone want to reconcile these statements for me? I certainly do agree with no one really knows about Airbus. Wonder if they could be a little more d
240 Cfalk : only a third of the development funds are coming from Governments - the rest comes from normal sources like financial institutions etc. That is bad en
241 LJ : Banks lend to corporations all the time. They lend huge amounts for risky ventures and charge high rates. This is nothing new. What are you talking ab
242 N79969 : LJ, I am not sure what you are getting at...but I read a mixture of US/Euro stuff: The Economist, Wall Street Journal, NY Times, and so on. What exact
243 Cfalk : Moreover more and more banks go out of (or reduce its exposure to) the corporate lending business (high risk, relatively low return). Corporate bankin
244 N79969 : "You probably haven't heard of the fact that for every $ they lend to company X they have to have Z $ amount of capital to back up the loan (in case t
245 CX747 : Your right on the money N79969. Unfortunately, the cat is out of the bag and Airbus wins another round. The only losers here are EU taxpayers. Don't l
246 Cfalk : Did everyone think that the 737 would be the only aircraft in the market place? Here's to capitalism in its truest form. Of course not, and we should
247 Post contains images RickB : European taxpayers do stump up the funds for some of the development of Airbus aircraft - but its not a total drain on the taxpayers. The UK has recei
248 Cfalk : The UK has received repayment of its development loan on the A320 including the interest - it also now receives royalties on each aircraft sold Correc
249 N79969 : I have actually praised the 319/320 aircraft for their quality and have also noted that they have definitely paid themselves off. But like Cfalk said,
250 Post contains links LJ : "If Airbus actually defaulted on a EU loan, do you see the French police towing/flying aircraft away from Tolouse? Putting a lock on the gates? This m
251 N79969 : Come on, LJ. You are probably a smart guy. Do you really believe that France would put WTO compliance over the crown jewel of its industrial base and
252 Cfalk : Thanks LJ, for those links. Now we have some numbers. (top of page 39 of the first link) The launch aid from the governments is for just over 3.8 bill
253 Staffan : But why doesn't someone file a complaint with the WTO? Staffan
254 N79969 : Read the last paragraph of page 38 of report (page 40 of Adobe file) of the first link. That's an open admission that Airbus is subsidized. Surprising
255 Wingman : The problem is that the aid is entirely legal due to the moronic agreement set in 1992. The French could continue to subsidize Airbus even if it had 9
256 N79969 : I agree that the 1992 agreement was terrible for the US. Like I said before, I think it was signed because the US realized there was no way they could
257 LJ : Cfalk, 1 year USD libor is around 2%, thus still above Libor (it all depends in which currency you lend) Read the last paragraph of page 38 of report
258 N79969 : Does Airbus borrow in Euro or USD? Better yet since so many think that loaning taxpayer money to aerospace firms is and has been a good deal for the E
259 Cfalk : The loan was made in the EU, to a European company that keeps its books in Euros. A dollar loan would be like the U.S. government making a loan to Boe
260 N79969 : The reason I asked is that aircraft transactions were (are still?) conducted with USD for a very long time. I was not sure of how this works in the EU
261 Post contains links Joni : It's a pleasure to see that every now and then someone comes up with actual information. So, the government loans are at rates unavailable from priva
262 Wingman : The problem Joni is that the "subsidies" the EU accuses Boeing of receiving relate to military and/or space projects. The difference between these "su
263 CX747 : Wingman, amen. What an outstanding post. I agree with you that the current situation isn't going to last that much longer and then we'll see how the E
264 Joni : Wingman, I was under the impression that the Typhoon fighter had sold hundreds of frames, but I can be mistaken. Regarding the subsidies Boeing gets,
265 Cfalk : Very good post, Wingman. Regarding the subsidies Boeing gets, they are not solely related to military projects. I don't know of ANY such subsidies. Bo
266 Joni : Cfalk, Governments give subsidies as part of their industrial policies. They want to improve their standing in certain areas or support local produce
267 Post contains images S.p.a.s. : Hi... For those who are not willing to wait the "real stuff", here's a retouched photo of the above mentioned A319s and by the way, also the Martinair
268 N79969 : "Regarding the sale of Typhoon to potential adversaries, the Pentagon is using this as a prime reason why the US needs to build the much more expensiv
269 Keesje : .. and make them buy billions of US made weapons of course.. let US build the weapons, they are the best in that. they love weapons, even in thier own
270 N79969 : Keesje, As long as Airbus gets to wear a diaper in its competition with Boeing, this issue will not go away. It taints everything. Every remark made a
271 Keesje : Lets try a new opening : Boeing sold hundreds of 400+ seat 747's without competition for decades. Margins were "generous" That enabled them to discoun
272 N79969 : Boeing did and does use monopolistic pricing on the 747 to this day. They competed vigorously with McDD and Lockheed. These three companies were not s
273 Post contains links Keesje : Airbus will never receive the kind of R&D funding Boeing has for the last 50 years. They won't come even close. http://www.boeing.com/flash.html To sa
274 RickB : Oh for gods sake (and im not religious) will you cut this garbage out !! EU subsidies to Airbus take place with loans (repayable) as stated - the rate
275 N79969 : Keep the thread going. Keesje, Why did you link Boeing's website?
276 Post contains images RickB : N79969 - no one will ever agree about this - its like trying to convince a Redskin fan that Dallas are a really great team - it just aint going to hap
277 Post contains links M27 : N79969, and Wingman, some excellent posts! Wingman, I hope you are correct about the US finally taking some steps to deal with the situation! I have n
278 N79969 : It's about time we spoke up about this nonsense. I hope we do actually follow through and don't sell out Boeing for a few electoral votes in the 2004
279 Post contains images Staffan : "I think we at least make a serious attempt to be objective on this side of the pond." From your side of the pond we have heard just about everything
280 RickB : N79969, This is the reason I think we should leave this thread alone - its too contentious - I do believe that Airbus are subsidised but having read t
281 Aerosol : SAS inflight magazine Scanorama page 113: 340-300: 0.039 litres per seat mile 330-300: 0.035 321-200: 0.031 767-3ER: 0.040 737-600: 0.044 737-700: 0.0
282 Cfalk : RickB, stop yaking about Boeing's military contracts - EADS and BAe's military contracts are as big or even a bigger part of their business, as a perc
283 Post contains links N79969 : RickB, I was not picking on you personally. But since you raised it: "I do believe that Airbus are subsidised but having read through the 1992 agreeme
284 Post contains links LJ : Anyone claiming that Airbus is not supported by the European governments is lying (you only have to read their annual report in which they admiot it).
285 Wingman : I continue to be shocked that the pro-Airbus crowd simply points out military "subsidies" to Boeing. Between BAe and EADS, the member companies enjoy
286 N79969 : LJ, The word "direct" is used to convey how blatant EU behavior has become and not to silently contrast it to some "indirect" subsidy that the US prov
287 Staffan : Wingman, we don't come to this forum to have our entire continent insulted. If that makes you feel good, so be it... Have a nice day.
288 N79969 : Wingman, That was outstanding...you should write op-eds for a newspaper. To all those just insulted by Wingman: There is not much in the way of exagge
289 Post contains links N79969 : Speaking of the devils: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134564275_airbus28.html Maybe the EU will drop the A400M and buy C-17
290 Post contains links and images Mark_D. : Wingman I continue to be shocked... LOL! ya d-o-n'-t say the member companies enjoy of Airbus enjoy at least an equal amount of military subsidies Hey
291 Post contains images Mark_D. : N79969 Wingman, That was outstanding...you should write op-eds for a newspaper. LOL, N! Why oh why am I not surprised to see you say something along t
292 N79969 : Mark_D, Nice to see that the western provence of France has chimed in...always good to hear from you guys. You're right I probably would have gotten a
293 Dexter : I don't get it guys! Why can't you just agree that neither A nor B are actually competing in a 100%fair manner? A get over-generous loans from their g
294 Post contains links and images Mark_D. : N79969 Nice to see that the western provence of France has chimed in... LOL, N! What's a "provence"? You sayin' there's another Côte D'Azur (wow, if
295 LJ : In fact N79969, the JSF contract is more direct government subsidy than indirect. I (as a Dutch taxpayer) pay part of the EUR 896 mio our government h
296 Mark_D. : Dexter I don't get it guys! Why can't you just agree that neither A nor B are actually competing in a 100%fair manner? I sure agree this is what's goi
297 747-451 : Wingman, Very well written and correct. Add to that, Boeing has it's share of issues as far as loosing its "edge". The 737 should have been scrapped l
298 N79969 : Mark_D, Thanks for the article....I will write a letter to editor first thing in the morning. Actually those were non-sequiturs...Did I say provence?
299 N79969 : One last thing LJ, the JSF development team is run by Lockheed...What does that have to do with Boeing? What is your point?
300 747-451 : I agree, if Boeing is allowed to collapse because the "EU" feels jobs are threatened, then we should fund Boeing with tax dollrs just as Airbus was du
301 Areopagus : The 737 should have been scrapped long ago and repaced with a more modern design (why not try a radical shrinking of a 757 perhpas) instead of wasting
302 747-451 : No, I would not have complained about a 757 derivative; since the 757 is a newer, more efficient design would have offered even more commonality with
303 Post contains links RickB : Changed my mind N79969 - this thread should keep going - if only to have a standard place to house all A v B wars !! The blinkered idiocy of some post
304 Wingman : Rick, what is BAe's military revenue? Then add that to EADS military revenue. Now what do you have have? Wake up brother. And Mark D and Steffan, ther
305 RickB : BAe turnover last year was £13,138 million - or around $19707 million Okay so 30 billion plus 19 billion euros comes to around 49 billions Euros for
306 Areopagus : 747-451, I do wish the 737NG had the 757's nose section. When Boeing developed the 757, they said that the new nose was less noisy and created less dr
307 Cfalk : RickB, how about putting them in proportion to each other (military/civilian). And don't forget to include the space programs. EADS/BAe and Boeing are
308 LJ : I would say that Boldman chose his words to avoid starting the same, tired argument that you have been making for the last week which is, "but Boeing
309 RickB : Cfalk, The best full breakdown of EADS income is for the first half of 2002 and is as follows (bear in mind that its half year): - Airbus - 9870 Milit
310 N79969 : LJ, If I mistakenly attributed the argument to you, I apologize. I probably confused what someone else wrote and thought it was you. 1) Should governm
311 747-451 : 757 over 737NG The cargo hold is deeper in the front and rear-remember only the upper lobes are shared, the rear cone is more efficeint aerodynamicall
312 Post contains links Cfalk : Rick, I looked at FY 2001 figures, supplied at http://www.finance.eads.net/commerz180602.pdf, and Bae financials from this summary http://production.i
313 Post contains images LJ : LJ your an accountant right? These days this is an insult No I'm not an accountant (fortuneatly not all people who work in financial accounting are ac
314 N79969 : LJ, I believe that you work at a large bank. Everyone is looking for low risk/high return investments. If it actually exists then it is a) insider tra
315 RickB : Charles, Those figures are the same as I used - although in the financial documents EADS claimed that 20% of revenue was from defence related projects
316 N79969 : No, they are not all doing it. Again, you keep imputing Airbus subsidies to Boeing. It is not the same in amount, concept, or form. Boeing sells stuff
317 RickB : No its not purely about that - its also about the exchange of technologies developed with US government money and then filtered down into civilian pro
318 Wingman : Can anyone here name a single technology developed from military contracts that's ended up in a Boeing jetliner? I think you guys mean Airbus. Airbus
319 Artsyman : Airbus has never ever reported a profit. Can you find me any other company that could trade for 30 years without a profit and not be getting subsidies
320 Sllevin : I hate to get into these, but, what the heck. Where is it written that defense contracts are a subsidy? Are Boeing's margins that high on defense proj
321 RickB : Okay guys here goes, fly by wire technology, use of composites, use of advanced alloys to name but a few. These technologies where developed for milit
322 Joni : Artsyman, Where did you get the idea that Airbus has never posted a profit? N76679, Why do you find it so difficult to admit that Boeing gets subsidi
323 Cfalk : Why do you find it so difficult to admit that Boeing gets subsidies? The US government admits it subsidizes Boeing. Again, WHAT subsidies? They pay fo
324 RickB : Cfalk, ah but a grant is not repayably - a loan is repayable - therefore by your own definition Airbus is not subsidised !! RickB
325 Cfalk : Rick, I never said anything about grants, but the general idea is that Boeing is a supplier to the U.S. government, and whatever money they receive is
326 Krushny : Again, WHAT subsidies? They pay for research and development, but they get products in return. That is NOT a subsidy. The other day I watched an old
327 N79969 : Joni and Rick B, "Why do you find it so difficult to admit that Boeing gets subsidies? The US government admits it subsidizes Boeing. I don't think it
328 RickB : I give up on you guys - you cant accept reality as stated by Boeing themselves - if you dont want to listen whats the point in posting. RickB
329 Wingman : Rick, All those supposed military technologies ended up in Airbus aircraft first, making your argument ironic indeed. Imagine that, not only does Airb
330 Post contains images Cfalk : Oh, come on Rick, this is fun We are listening, and have yet to hear of any sub-market loans, or outright cash gifts to Boeing from the U.S. governmen
331 4holer : I can't begin to argue this issue as well as some of you have. But as someone who has been following this thread with interest, I do have a question.
332 Joni : N76696, The case in Boeing's aid is not from them selling hardware to the government as regular businesses do, but subsidies in the Webster/Oxford de
333 RickB : In 1998 the that total indirect subsidy to Boeing through the defence department and NASA amounted to around 5 - 10% of Boeing's total revenue - or we
334 Post contains images Joni : When Madelaine Albright threatened to discontinue Israel's 4bn USD/a aid unless El Al drop their plans to order from Airbus and order from Boeing ins
335 Post contains images Gerardo : So far, most part of the discussion regarding US subsidies to Boeing were only focussing on subsidies thru the defense sector. What I didn't see so fa
336 N79969 : Joni, Think about it. Almost every Airbus supporter insists that a Boeing sale is a subsidy. This is an EU position. The US obviously realized that th
337 N79969 : Gerardo, All US exporters got the illegal tax credit. It was not targeted at Boeing. In contrast, Airbus gets launch aid and repayable government loan
338 0A340 : Why does Olympic fly A340s? Greece is a net beneficiary of EU aid. First for some real, technical reasons. OA does not have ETOPS certification. Thus
339 Post contains links Joni : N79969, So you're claiming that the US side in the 1992 negotiations didn't think the WTO would be impartial and had to agree to a lopsided deal? Thi
340 N79969 : Joni, The WTO did not exist in 1992. The agreement was between the US and EU with no intermediary. It was founded on January 1, 1995. Thanks for attem
341 Mf3864 : No offense but... Does this Avs.B hot air festival ever end?
342 N79969 : Mf3864, I actually have nothing against actual Airbus aircraft. Although I strongly prefer Boeing airplanes, I actually think the 330-200 is a very go
343 LJ : The WTO did not exist in 1992. The agreement was between the US and EU with no intermediary. It was founded on January 1, 1995. Thanks for attempting
344 Post contains links N79969 : LJ, No. I'm right. http://www.wto.int/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/whatis_e.htm When the US and the EU signed the deal, there was no intermediary. The ge
345 Joni : The agreement is bilateral, however you missed my point. My point was that you thought that the US didn't believe GATT/WTO would condemn Airbus' subs
346 N79969 : Point is simple and proven: how can you rely on organization that does not exist to enforce an agreement? GATT is a framework and WTO is an organizati
347 PW100 : So I went through this complete thread [took me about a week or so to catch up...]. I've seen overwhelming evidence that development of Airbus aircraf
348 Joni : N79969, Your new position in this thread is not very solid. Aerospace industry makes money, so there is definite economic sense in having a strong ae
349 N79969 : Joni, If civil aerospace is naturally and easily profitable, then it will attract capital on its own and would not require EU style government steward
350 Joni : N79969, No-one has contested that the decision to enter the civil transport business in Europe has been deliberate. Politicians get paid to make deci
351 Post contains images Solnabo : Everybody bitching in here, so I´ll better join the A-TEAM cuz I´m swedish and SAAB has something to do with the A 388 project.(wingconstrution?) "S
352 N79969 : Boeing never had a monopoly on airliners...the EU is getting close to buying one though.
353 RickB : N79969 - just incase you were under any illusion - the US has been welcome in Europe along with its support since WWII, however a couple of factors yo
354 N79969 : Rick, I think Denmark (or Norway) is the only country to have paid back the US. Would you have been happier had the US not stepped into WW2 and not of
355 RickB : N79969 - the reason why we havent paid it back in full is because we are still paying for it !!! As I said in the other thread - at the moment both Ai
356 N79969 : Sorry Rick, BCAG does not receive benefits, direct or indirect, anywhere close in size or in nature to what Airbus receives. There is nothing roughly
357 Post contains images RickB : oh dear - I see we are going down that now familiar disagreement rat hole... Whats the weather like where you are (its a safer subject I think ) RickB
358 Lortab 7.5mg : "Sonic Cruiser gonna be the fastest subsonic jetliner in near future"; that doesn´t sound apeling to me, neither as a pax or a crew, or what do u guy
359 RickB : Lortab 7.5mg - the sad fact is that the sonic cruiser is already a waste of US tax payers money - see the details of the NASA supersonic research prog
360 Post contains images Lortab 7.5mg : The government money has already been spent, mostly in methods to reduce or eliminate the impact of sonic booms Why is that a waste of money? That's R
361 N79969 : Maybe Airbus will get a crack at the data. They have used NASA research in the past.
362 RickB : When was the last time Airbus was a subcontractor for NASA ? RickB
363 N79969 : RickB, Where did Airbus get the idea for the A310's supercritical wing?
364 RickB : Yeah but did NASA pay Airbus to develop it ??? Thats what NASA do with Boeing !! See my post on the other thread !! RickB
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