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Northwest Considering MIA-NRT  
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33053 posts, RR: 71
Posted (12 years 22 hours ago) and read 2327 times:

From a traditionally reliable source at the FlyerTalk message boards, Northwest Airlines, following the very successful launch of MIA-AMS, is considering launching non-stop service between Miami and Tokyo Narita. Service would operate two or three times a week with a 747-400 and is largely dependent on the approval of the CO/DL/NW alliance.

Also, I have heard rumours, and these I do not know how relaible they are, that NW is taking a look at launching Detroit-Sao Paulo late next year.



a.
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7787 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (12 years 22 hours ago) and read 2287 times:

Certainly a thrice or four times weekly flight to Tokyo would make sense. This might also get American Airlines to commit one-way or the other to that market as well.

However I cannot honestly see DTW-GRU as a reasonable possibility in the next 18 months. Honestly things will have to get a lot better for that to be feasible. But it may make sense to apply to the DOT to get the slots to do the flight.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineAZO From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 767 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (12 years 22 hours ago) and read 2227 times:

Wow, I never even would have imagined DTW-GRU as a possibility. And of course it still may not be, but you never know. New territory for NWA. Comments from Farve?


Kalamazoozoozoozoozoozoozoo
User currently offlineMia777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2002, 1165 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (12 years 22 hours ago) and read 2209 times:

ok I really hope NW starts an MIA-NRT flight -- finally some Asian service (besides El Al who connects in JFK or ERW...and we've already had the "Is Israel in Europe or Asia debate")....I also think AA should serve this route....they do have a large hub in MIA. Nearly every plane that flies over my house is AA (on their Latin America ops)....oh well...hope this news turns out to be true!

MIA777



MIA777
User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2514 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (12 years 22 hours ago) and read 2202 times:

Most interesting news indeed!
However, can the 744 [non ER] do MIA-NRT both ways non-stop without payload restictions year round?? Isn't this route more suitable for the ultimate long rangers 345/346ER/772LR?
Anybody?

PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (12 years 21 hours ago) and read 2184 times:

I don't see DTW-GRU any time soon. The Brazilian market has been hurt badly by the Latin American economic crisis. NW can perhaps flex its alliance with CO and code share through Houston or Newark to Sao Paolo.

ContinentalEWR


User currently offlineUnited_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7507 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (12 years 21 hours ago) and read 2159 times:

Does NW have enough feed in MIA or would they rely on O & D ?


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineEzra From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 474 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (12 years 21 hours ago) and read 2141 times:


NW could also rely on its feed at NRT to make this route work.


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (12 years 21 hours ago) and read 2141 times:

ORD - HKG 7793 miles
NRT - MIA 7436 miles

UA flies ORD-HKG on a 747-400.

744s can do NRT-MIA easily.

However, that isn't really the issue.

The Miami Metro does not have a large Japanese population nor is Miami a big destination for Japanese.

Ties between Asia and Miami are minimal.

If NW were to operate this route, it would need to rely on O&D and the O&D is not there.

If AA were to operate the route, then it might have a chance because of the connection opportunities to South America.

But this route cannot succeed without connections which is why I don't see NW flying the route.

With the current economic crisis, I do not think you will see a new US destination from Japan until 2004/2005. What currently exists between the US and Tokyo is all that can be supported at the moment.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (12 years 21 hours ago) and read 2117 times:

Lets not forget the operational costs and crew costs of such a flight.

Because of the distance of this route, costs are going to be extremely high to the point that the revenue generated from such a flight will not be enough to cover the costs and therefore the flight will not be profitable.

You will need to charge passengers a lot for such a flight that making a connection will be much cheaper and therefore people will not fly on it.

This is a big problem with Asia - US flights. It's a completely different issue from Europe flights.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33053 posts, RR: 71
Reply 10, posted (12 years 20 hours ago) and read 2052 times:

We'll see what happens, but the O&D between Miami and Asia is there for three flights a week. In addition, Northwest Airlines codeshares with all of Gulfstream's intra-Florida and Bahamas flights out of MIA. Plus, don't forget about cargo.


a.
User currently offlineScottysAir From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 20 hours ago) and read 2040 times:

Yeah, right and we're won't not happened with the new nonstop from MIA-NRT flight anytime into the future. I do think about hear Vraig were already opreation nonstop from MIA-NRT flight. Don't you guys know remember about this one for last time. I'm pretty sure that will be great to high load factors for the new nonstop. I did know about AA might will be chance for the new route from MIA-NRT anytime into the of future. Well, later!!

User currently offlineGARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1518 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (12 years 19 hours ago) and read 2025 times:



This is a very interesting proposition. Seeing as I do the cargo sales
for NW in MIA, there is a definite interest for some direct Asia service.
On the surface an O&D market may not exist, but remember that South
Florida is a very large banking and insurance area and there are many companies that have their Latin American branches in this area.
There is also a very large Japanese population in Brazil, Peru and somewhat Argentina. Produce from Chile is also very popular in Japan. I think a
3xweekly service would be ideal for start up and could eventually
go daily. As far as payload on this flight, I dont think there will be
much for cargo as you are probably looking at a 13hr+ flight time, which
after pax, baggage, and fuel, there isnt a lot left for cargo.



Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2514 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (12 years 17 hours ago) and read 1953 times:

BA
Thanks for the info. Does UA face payload restrictions on their west bound ORD-HKG flights?

MIA is indeed a good cargo market. NW could certainly use a 744 Combi [KLM ??] for a NRT-MIA run!

What are conveniant departure/arrival times from at MIA and NRT from a pax point of view? Would MIA-NRT fit in as an extension to the current KLM AMS-MIA flight [arrives MIA @ 14.45, departs MIA @ 17.35]? KLM could fly a 744 Combi [they have 16 or 17 of them...] into MIA from AMS under joint KL/NW flight number. The same ship could depart 2-3 hrs later for MIA-NRT as a NW flight? Just an idea...

PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlineGARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1518 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (12 years 16 hours ago) and read 1902 times:



PW100
That in effect would make the flight a KL flight since it would be flown
with KL aircraft and crew. KL already serves NRT nonstop from AMS
plus with the Dutch crew flight hours, I dont think this flight would be
realistic. There is a NW B747-400 that sits for almost 24hrs at JFK
but you would need two aircraft for this. Only one if you operate say
on days WE,FR,SU. Most of the Latin American flights arrive MIA
early in the morning, while the European flights all land between 1-3pm.
Another option might be the two B747-300 Combis that NW owns, but
has removed the engines for installation on their own Freighters.
4 New Engines would be significantly cheaper than a new B747-400.



Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (12 years 16 hours ago) and read 1878 times:

I suspect it could work. Contrary to some folks thoughts that there wouldn't be enough support, I have to say, I was on AA943 last week from DFW-MIA and when the bags came off at MIA, there were a LOT of bags that had come through AA60, the NRT-DFW flight.

MIA (especially with the feed to MCO) is always going to be a significant tourist destination. I suspect that once NW starts up the service, everyone else will jump on the bandwagon.

Steve


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33053 posts, RR: 71
Reply 16, posted (12 years 16 hours ago) and read 1864 times:

MIA (especially with the feed to MCO) is always going to be a significant tourist destination. I suspect that once NW starts up the service, everyone else will jump on the bandwagon.

If everyone else jumps on the bandwagon the market will be at overcapacity and yields will suck. I think Northwest Airlines can do very well with MIA-NRT two or three times a week.

On the Miami end, they can get interlining connections from Latin American flights. Peru and Brazil have heavy traffic to Asia. There is also and O&D traffic base to Asia. Miami is a major banking and fashion centre (don't laugh, because it is the fashion industry that make's Alitalia MIA-MXP flights such big moneymakers), and so is Tokyo. Plus connections on NW coded Gulfstream flights to the Bahamas and intra-Florida.

On the Tokyo end, Miami and Latin American originating travelers will have acsess to Northwest's extensive Asian network, which includes Manila, Singapore, Shanghai, Pusan, Taipei...that is just to name a few.

While I do think on the Miami-originating end, American Airlines (or even LanChile) would have the upper hand, Northwest clearly could make this service work based on its extensive Asian customer base.

We will just have to wait and see what happens. It seems too good to be true, but the service is being looked at.






a.
User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (12 years 15 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

I really don't see a Detroit- Sao Paulo flight anytime soon either. If there is, it would be a once a week thing on a 757.

I think Northwest would put their focus into many other international destinations before they went to South America. First of all, Detroit area doesn't have that many South Americans living in it.

Detroit has the largest Arab population outside the Mideast and Northwest doesn't fly to anywhere in the Mideast other than thru KLM connections at AMS. One would think Northwest would serve Saudi Arabia or UAE first.

If Northwest goes for that long range 757 or something about 767 size, I could see a few more European destinations being added like Warsaw, a return to Milan, Shannon, a return to Glasgow, Copenhagen, Moscow and maybe Manchester.

Northwest will probably reinstate direct flights to Seoul that were dropped in the Asian crisis first or any others that could go direct to Asia without a stop at NRT


User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2100 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (12 years 15 hours ago) and read 1811 times:

If NW were to start MIA-NRT service would this then constitute their longest route? I think the service would do very well as it would probably provide the quickest link to Japan for South Florida, South America, and the Carribean.

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (12 years 12 hours ago) and read 1722 times:

"Japan for South Florida, South America, and the Carribean. "

This route is not going to make out that well (imo) for two key reasons, first the Carribean and South Florida are way too far away to attract that many Japanese tourists. Hawaii, Guam, Australia, Fiji etc are all much closer and much cheaper for the Japanese to visit than the Carribean or South beach.

This is the same reasoning why there's no flights from Europe-Hawaii.

Also Miami is the financial Capital of Latin America, there's very little industry in Florida itself which has trade with Asia. The Mid-West (Detroit, Chicago) have strong manufactoring ties to Asia, NY and Bos have strong financial and Cultural ties to Asia, and the West coast has huge Asian populations for which trade and tourism thrive.

There's little trade or cultural ties between Florida and Asia, otherwise someone would have connected the two regions a long time ago.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33053 posts, RR: 71
Reply 20, posted (12 years 12 hours ago) and read 1720 times:

There's little trade or cultural ties between Florida and Asia, otherwise someone would have connected the two regions a long time ago.

JAL flew MIA-ANC-NRT in the 1980s with a DC-8.



a.
User currently offlineNWA Man From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1828 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (12 years 10 hours ago) and read 1671 times:

"If Northwest goes for that long range 757 or something about 767 size, I could see a few more European destinations being added..."

Hehe...like the A330? On its way in, buddy. Those routes going to be added? Doubtful. NW's quite happy with letting pax connect in AMS and continue on to their finals. DEN-AMS, PHX-AMS and DFW-AMS are more likely than MSP-CPH or anywhere else on the list.


"Also Miami is the financial Capital of Latin America..."

You're going to have to explain yourself on that one, considering that last time I checked, Miami is in the United States, which is not in Latin America. Miami and Tokyo both have large banking and finance industries, so one could argue that this route is needed to connect these two cities.

We'll see how it turns out...should be interesting.


N-Dub




Create your own luck.
User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 22, posted (12 years 10 hours ago) and read 1659 times:

The problem is that MIA doesnt have any NW connecting flights, but I guess that the same thing can be said about LAX, SFO, and SEA. Do you think MIA could fill a 744 75% daily...probably not, but they could do it 2 to 4 times a week. I dont know...stranger things have happed. As for DTW-GRU, I dont see that happening, there is not a strong enough Latin American population in Detroit for something like that to happen. I have a feeling that NW is content feeding pax through IAH for South American flights, so that its not their ass that is on the line when the volitaile South American markets turn south (no pun intended).


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33053 posts, RR: 71
Reply 23, posted (12 years 1 hour ago) and read 1572 times:

You're going to have to explain yourself on that one, considering that last time I checked, Miami is in the United States, which is not in Latin America. Miami and Tokyo both have large banking and finance industries, so one could argue that this route is needed to connect these two cities.

No need to explain, it is a widely known fact. Miami is home to something like 114 forieign banks from Europe, Latin America, the Caribbean, Asia, and Africa with nearly $55B in assets. Those 114 banks include the Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi, which has big offices in Miami. Because of the instability of most Latin American economies, most of Latin banks have huge operations in Miami. In fact, it is hard to name a major Latin financial instiution that does not have huge Miami operations.

Check these links out:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22financial+capital+of+latin+america%22+miami&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22capital+of+latin+america%22+miami&btnG=Google+Search

Some do argue that Panama City is the financial capital, but Miami is the widely accepeted one.








a.
User currently offlineA330_DTW From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (11 years 12 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1419 times:

I really don't see a MIA/NRT route anytime soon.
A) NW barely has enough 744s to keep its DTW-Asia operation running.
B) MIA is not a traditional destination for the Japanese. (Now a MCO/NRT I could see. We ran a 744 MCO/DTW/NRT several times a few years ago and it was full all the way from MCO to NRT every time).

As for DTW/GRU...Delta is pulling out of S. America because of low demand. I don't see NW trying to enter this market.


25 Derico : I wish there were already a MIA-NRT route, it would be very, very nice (even better if it was a Japanese carrier, but let's not daydream too much...)
26 MAH4546 : B) MIA is not a traditional destination for the Japanese. (Now a MCO/NRT I could see. We ran a 744 MCO/DTW/NRT several times a few years ago and it wa
27 BA : MCO-NRT is more likely than MIA-NRT. For one, it's a route that will actually have a lot of traffic. While it's true MCO-NRT will obviously be mostly
28 Trvlr : Right now, every city in the US that has Tokyo service is all that can support Tokyo service. BA: I tend to disagree with that statement. I feel that
29 MAH4546 : Japanese love Disney World. Exactly, which is why they have the Tokyo Disneyland Resort, a resort far superior to any other Disney park, built to much
30 HlywdCatft : In response to my mention of Northwest getting a long range 757- 767... ""Hehe...like the A330? On its way in, buddy. Those routes going to be added?
31 MAH4546 : but they don't have Epcot, MGM or Animal Kingdom as part of it now do they? Does Japan have Universal Studios or Sea World? No, they do not have Epcot
32 BA : Trvlr, The market between Asia and the US has been hit really hard as a result of the poor economy. Asia was much more affected than Europe service. I
33 BA : HlywdCatft, I know what you mean. When I was in Orlando, it was full of Japanese. I just couldn't believe it. I felt as if I was in Japan. My ATL-MCO
34 GARUDAROD : How did this turn into a thread about AA and their hubs? The title of this posting is NORTHWEST....Most people dont seem to realize that MCO is less
35 STT757 : "Also Miami is the financial Capital of Latin America..." You're going to have to explain yourself on that one, considering that last time I checked,
36 MAH4546 : How did this turn into a thread about AA and their hubs? The title of this posting is NORTHWEST....Most people dont seem to realize that MCO is less t
37 PSU.DTW.SCE : No more outstanding orders on 747-400's. Those 2 were delivered earlier in 2002.
38 BA : MAH4546, You're forgetting that Singapore Airlines recently started flying to LAS 3x a week. The flight flies SIN-HKG-LAS. While that's not Tokyo, it'
39 Rafabozzolla : About DTW-GRU Maybe most people do not see it happening... until it someone has the idea! Brazilian economy faces hard times nowadays, but let's not f
40 MAH4546 : You're forgetting that Singapore Airlines recently started flying to LAS 3x a week. No, I am not. With Hong Kong there is a much wealthier demographic
41 BA : MAH4546, No, I am not. With Hong Kong there is a much wealthier demographic, especially to Las Vegas. A lot of high-rollers, not the case with NRT. Ja
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