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New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH  
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4436 times:

It is still early, but the preliminary IATA 2003 summer schedules for Air Canada show the following new international services:

Quebec City-Paris; 29Mar03; 767:
AC 898 YQB 1740-0605 CDG Daily
AC 899 CDG 1400-1510 YQB Daily

Edmonton-Frankfurt; 30Mar03; 767:
AC 838 YEG 1710-1015 FRA MoSu
AC 839 FRA 1155-1310 YEG SaSu

Halifax-Frankfurt; 29Mar03; 767:
AC 838 YHZ 1910-0640 FRA ExMoSu
AC 839 FRA 1155-1410 YHZ ExSaSu

Toronto-Copenhagen returns; 01May02; 767:
AC 882 YYZ 1745-0735 CPH ExMoWeSu
AC 883 CPH 1040-1315 YYZ ExTuThMo

Toronto-Seoul; 29Mar03; A340-300:
AC 65 YYZ 1015-1410+1 ICN TuThSa
AC 66 ICN 1600-1615 YYZ WeFrSu

Toronto-Hong Kong; 29Mar03; A340-500:
AC 11 YYZ 1015-1410+1 HKG Daily
AC 6 HKG 1555-1830 YYZ Daily
(does not replace the second YVR-HKG service)

In addition, YVR-NGO is back, but YVR-TPE is not. Plus YVR-LHR will become triple daily and YYC-LHR double-daily. It is all preleminary, though. Everything can change.



a.
66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4313 times:

Hey MAH4546,

Where did you find this?

Mark


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4305 times:

http://www.iata.org/sked/_files/AC_IATA-draft-documents03.doc

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 3, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4290 times:

Yeah, sorry about that, forgot to include the link. I never knew about this IATA thing until recently. What exactly is the IATA? I've found lot's of random stuff going through the scheds. AA is launching JFK-BCN and JFK-FCO; IB is adding some MIA-Central America frequencies, etc.


a.
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4265 times:

IATA is the International Air Transport Association

It is the industry body that co-ordinates activities between member carriers such as schedule and fare filing, coupon clearing, etc...

There is a wealth of information available through IATA and they are usually very helpful if you need it for research purposes.


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4264 times:

It looks like all the YYZers will sleep well tonight.

Double daily YYC-FRA, 4 daily YYZ-FRA, and no 2 daily YUL-FRA?

Its really discouraging being from YUL...

Mark


User currently offlineChrisA330 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 632 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4246 times:

I don't think a lot of these will materialize - they don't have enough aircraft to cover this. For example: YYZ-HKG with the A340-500 requires 2 aircraft for a daily operation, but they also have the A345 running YVR-SYD. They only have 2 of these aircraft on order, unless they changes their mix between the 345 and 346 again.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4231 times:

Actually, daily 345 YYZ-HKG vv would require 3, not 2, 345's. Since a 345 could not return to YYZ within 24h of leaving. Same with the new YVR-SYD nonstop.....this would also require 3, not 2, 345 aircraft for it to be daily. Since AC will only have 2, not 6, 345's in service next summer, this timetable cannot be correct (it is called draft after all).

As for the other routes:
1. YYC-LHR was 2x daily 763 in summer 02....they are upgrading one flight to the 343.
2. YYZ-LHR stays at 6x daily.
3. I'm very surprized that YVR-LHR is 3x daily including 1 all-pax 744.
4. YYC-FRA is going from 1x daily 343 to a 2x daily 763.
5. I'm also surprized that YEG-FRA is 2x week while there is still no YEG-LHR.
6. YYZ-ICN 3x weekly is a new route.
7. YVR-PEK upgrades from a daily 763 to a 343.

So, the 6 AC 744's will be used as follows:
1. YYZ-LHR (combi)
2. YYZ-FRA (combi)
3. YYZ-FRA (combi)
4. YVR-LHR (all passenger)
5. YVR-NRT (all passenger)
6. YVR-KIX (all passenger).

It looks like all the YYZers will sleep well tonight.

Of course. We always do (despite the constant drone of aircraft overhead).

Its really discouraging being from YUL...

I bet.











Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineGodbless From Sweden, joined Apr 2000, 2752 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4204 times:

YYC-FRA is going from 1x daily 343 to a 2x daily 763.
Isn't YYC-FRA operated with a 763 at the moment? All the people I know that flew YYC-FRA on AC in the past year all got the 763.

If YEG-FRA is actually started I believe it will be a seasonal flight only. Isn't YEG-LHR flown durig the summer only too?

Max


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4194 times:

Isn't YYC-FRA operated with a 763 at the moment?

Maybe, but that would be the winter schedule. YYC-FRA was a 343 in the summer. My comparisons are summer over summer.

If YEG-FRA is actually started I believe it will be a seasonal flight only. Isn't YEG-LHR flown durig the summer only too?

YEG-FRA is only 2x/week next summer....almost for sure summer/seasonal only. AC stopped flying YEG-LHR and YWG-LHR a few years ago.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4159 times:

Mark is not going to be happy with this...not one bit!!! Oh well...


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineFlyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1738 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4152 times:

I don't know how accurate this website is, but many airlines will be adding new, expanded international services next summer.
You can check to see what a favorite airline is doing for next summer
http://www.iata.org/sked/schedules.asp



727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4131 times:

Actually, daily 345 YYZ-HKG vv would require 3, not 2, 345's. Since a 345 could not return to YYZ within 24h of leaving.

YYZ-HKG is a 2 aircraft operation with 33 hr rotations inc. 2 hrs at HKG and 15 hr overnight at YYZ



User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4126 times:

Mark is not going to be happy with this...not one bit!!! Oh well....

I've never known him to be happy.

YYZ-HKG is a 2 aircraft operation with 33 hr rotations inc. 2 hrs at HKG and 15 hr overnight at YYZ

Not without backup aircraft. 2 aircraft cannot handle full sked ops for a 6-mos period with no mx days.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4121 times:

This is an airbus afterall, and a new one at that, Im sure there will be a number of delayed and xld flights in the begining, no way that 2 planes could handle a load like that. Could it be that they are planning on adding an extra aircraft or two? I understand they still hold options on A340NG's.


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineRP TPA From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4070 times:

Well, this will sure take some time to digest. Just a few preliminary thoughts:

It appears that the elapsed flight time for YYZ-HKG is roughly the same as YVR-HKG. How can this be? The YYZ-HKG route must be a much longer distance, even taking into account the polar track. Someone please explain this one to me.

It seems like the YYZ-ICN flt will be a direct one, with a stop in YVR. So, it's not non-stop, just an extension of the YVR-ICN run.

MAH4546 said it best. Everything can change.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4061 times:

It appears that the elapsed flight time for YYZ-HKG is roughly the same as YVR-HKG. How can this be?

Simple. The A343 with the CFMs is a slow-assed piece of shit compared to the A345 with the Trents.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4059 times:

It seems like the YYZ-ICN flt will be a direct one, with a stop in YVR. So, it's not non-stop, just an extension of the YVR-ICN run.

According to the schedule, YVR-ICN will get a daily 763, while YYZ-ICN will run 3x weekly nonstop with the 343......the 343 will not stop in YVR.






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineRP TPA From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4051 times:

B747....

Thank you for your in-depth technical analysis......LOL


User currently offlineWolfy From Taiwan, joined Mar 2001, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4003 times:

Good news that they are having more flights next summer, but I really hate to know that YVR-TPE will not be back. I guess, yeah, everything can change, as the booking system still shows YVR-TPE next summer.

Thx for the info, interesting!  Smile

Regards,

Wolfy


User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 20, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4001 times:

Any news on transborder routes? I know it wasn't in the IATA presentation, but I'm just wondering if there's any new info floating out there somewhere.

Aaron G.


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3984 times:

Of course I went wrong somewhere...

AC874 Montreal-Frankfurt A330-300, Boeing B74E is one of AC's best international flights in terms of load factor. This summer, I swear the flight was oversold every day, until they brought a second daily to FRA from YUL. AC's route planning decides "HEY, lets make the 2nd flight depart within one hour from the original departure AC874, same for the arrival. At the same time, lets program the route LESS than one month from the start-up"..... and the FLIGHT was still full....

They also added a 2nd flight to YYc but on a 2 weekly basis. The end result, Montreal will be stuck with the same stupid overbooked AC874, while YYC gets a 2nd. More insulting, YEG and YHZ-FRA which are nice, but using this logic, every city in the United States of America over 300,000 in pop. should get a flight to their nearest largest European alliance hub...... and Id love to see DL, AA, NW, CO, US get of their Hub track, and add PWM-CDG or MKE-AMS.

So here we are again with the same dilemma Montreal's have been facing for the last 4 years. Air Canada's international flights for the most part, all leave with consistent load factors of 90% + non-rev's. Air Canada also saw what it doubted (Milton told me to my face that OS would never survive in Montreal), Austrian do quite well especially with their code-share. No Montrealers are stuck with a half-assed airport only because AC convinced the ADM and the BTMM (board of trade of Montreal metro) that YUL was to become a hub for AC. A hub with routes to TLV, MXP, FCO, BEY, FRA, LHR, BRU, CDG etc etc. AC continuously watches high load factors, only acts when the pressure is on by other carriers, and continues to send the excess to YYZ.

The expansion $850 million until 2009, near $1.4 billion for 2020, is mostly in part for Air Canada to have better transfer facilities, gain more VIP rooms, better baggage systems, more gates, more counters..... Milton stood before Montrealers (as he is the one calling for the expansion) saying that this expansion will allow "Quantum Leaps" the "Munich of Canada"..

Of course AC's gotta worry about their financial side of the picture, but having a YUL smaller alternative to YYZ isnt such a destructive idea. Even Robert Milton himself said that this was to be Montreal's potential. He predicted great things for YUL when I met him, saying that their core-routes (those that will never change) are some of the strongest in their network..

Anyway by the like of AC"s wish list, Calgary will have the same number of trans-atlantic as Montreal. While Calgary is quite prosperous, its international traffic is 1/4 the size of Montreal's. I dont expect big things from AC, but I do expect eventual 2X YUL-LHR, 2X YUL-FRA, 3X YUL-CDG, and maybe even YUL-MUC, YUL-MXP. These are all viable routes with viable demand. They are also a multi-tude of frequencies/destinations to this mini-hub that could also be considered, without infringing on Toronto's loads..

I will discount that the demand isnt there. KLM has reported the highest load factor per flight in its whole network from Montreal, primarily shuffling the Italy and India markets. Austrian is quite happy, BA is status quo, AF is adding a 3rd flight, RAM is going daily, MS is gonna go YUL-CAI non-stop, LH is interested in Montreal, CSA is going to do YUL-PRague without YYZ feed, and AC is constantly overbooked to its international destinations.

Is Air Canada waiting for more gate space? Is Air Canada waiting for the Dorval expansion to be completed given the absolutely awful facilities that they have? Or is Dorval pax just gonna be shuffled to YYZ, YYC, YVR and other hubs..Im anxious to see this, but im not very encouraged. Im encouraged with everybody else happy with their business at YUL, expanding their business as well. As for AC's, they're flights are not gonna get fuller than they are on the international side, because they cant, they are already full... (of course some dates in Nov, early Dec, Mid-Jan are open because its real low-season)..

So in short, Im pro-AC YYZ hub. But Im also pro-AC YUL secondary hub that will not hurt the YYZ main hub. With the new installations that promise to be world-class, easy, efficient, and friendly, I wonder if AC will consider taking a better look at us. Ive seen the plans, and they are quite good..

Mark



User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 38
Reply 22, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3968 times:

YQB-CDG? Shocking! I remember this topic being posted a couple months back with AF proposing the service. I said it would never happen...looks like I've been proven wrong once again. Heres a new prediction; it wont last later 1 Jan 2004


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineAad665 From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3947 times:

YQB-CDG will never start...just a sweet for poeple living in quebec city.

aad665


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3919 times:

Lets start London,Ont-London....

Mark


25 Post contains images RP TPA : FLYYUL.... YXU-LHR will start when AC re-starts ONT-YYZ.....So, you can travel from Ontario to Toronto Ontario to London Ontario to London.
26 Lymanm : Jeez, no Ottawa-Frankfurt. Jeez!
27 Yyz717 : AC874 Montreal-Frankfurt A330-300, Boeing B74E is one of AC's best international flights in terms of load factor. Load factor means relatively little.
28 Bigo747 : Please take note that the schedules is just a draft that was sent before November 1, 2002. There will be still major changes from now till next March.
29 Post contains images FLYYUL : Neil, AC874/AC875 is among AC's most profitable trans-atlantic flights in their system. I have a list of the top 10 in 2000. That was the only thing U
30 Yyz717 : AC874/AC875 is among AC's most profitable trans-atlantic flights in their system. I have a list of the top 10 in 2000. AC does not release profitabili
31 BO__einG : I like how YYC is being involved with some of the larger more active airports like YVR,YZ, and UL. As for the Quebec City-CDG: Are you kidding me?!! W
32 Slawko : If you are going to use a 763 for QB-CDG then why not start the flight off in YOW, im sure you could get half a 767 full of people in Ottawa and then
33 FLYYUL : Neil, Who are you to claim that Quebec is a have not province? Are you listening to your bias, or to statistics. BTW, the Ontario unemployment rate is
34 Rai : Actually, I don’t find YYZ that congested. I fly there A LOT and I’ve never been anything worse than the second plane lined up to take off. I thin
35 Spyderz : While YYZ can be congested at times, it doesn't compare with congestion at other major airports like ORD or BOS. What YYZ does have problems with is t
36 174thfwff : Sorry I deleted this, however I felt like it was a copyright violation. It turns out that it isn't and I apologize for my mistake. ::BUMP:: -174thfwff
37 Yyz717 : 2 provinces are designates as "have" provinces.....Ontario & Alberta. The other 8 are "have not". Which means that equalization payments flow from ON
38 Post contains images FLYYUL : Yes, Neil is in denial that the government in power receives most of its contributions and support in the Southern Ontario region. Of course this gove
39 Post contains links Yyz717 : Bull about your equalizations payments, the recent study shows that Quebec is severely underfunded vis a vis the province of Toronto errr Ontario. See
40 FLYYUL : 19 huh, its all uphill for me... youll be worrying about your wheelchair soon...
41 Sabena 690 : Nothing known about a possible YYZ-BRU flight? This rumour was going on some months ago... Regards, Frederic
42 Yyz717 : Each link is a different source which identifies the "have not" provinces. The last link shows that Quebec is the LARGEST recipient of aid (from hard
43 Post contains images Nicolasrolland : Ok might be sad for YUL but as a traveller who love to travel to asia without having to go thru US... well YYZ-ICN and YYZ-HKG is quite interesting e
44 Post contains images FLYYUL : Neil, You need to understand that I dont really care about Quebec as a whole, or its economy. Ill admit this to you, outside Montreal, Quebec is an is
45 FLYYUL : Why YYZ-BRU? This is clearly a YUL market. Mark
46 LJ : Please take note that the schedules is just a draft that was sent before November 1, 2002. There will be still major changes from now till next March.
47 Sabena 690 : Sorry, I mean YUL-BRU. Any chance for this route? Regards, Frederic
48 SafeFlyer : Although this is only a "draft" schedule, I simply can't understand AC as for their moves. 5 weekly YHZ-FRA. Before a YOW-FRA. Ottawa Intl is in the m
49 Skywatcher : Is it time for "why can't we all just be friends" yet ? I quess I'll never understand the YYZers superiority complex nor why the YULers let it get und
50 Noise : Ottawa is much bigger than Halifax! Halifax 2001 CMA: 350, 000 Ottawa 2001 CMA: 1 Million!
51 Yyz717 : most Montrealers will agree that Quebec has two worlds, Montreal and the rest. Mark, I agree with you. Ontario is similar.....Northern Ontario is in p
52 Modesto2 : How does AC justify YQB-CDG? Or for that matter...YQB to any international destination. I've flown out of YQB once in an AC DC-9...the largest plane a
53 MEL : I think Air Transat operated Quebec City-Paris CDG a few summers back with the L1011, so the runway must be long enough to carry out long distance, he
54 FLYYUL : YHZ-FRA operated in the sumemr of 1997 and 1998 both for AC. In 1997, the route was YUL-YHZ-FRA with B767 because the move from YMX to YUL was delayed
55 Yow : If YHZ-FRA happens before YOW-FRA that makes no sense whatsoever. What would make total sense would be a YOW-YHZ-FRA flight. Ottawa's such a small mar
56 Yyz717 : While I agree that YOW-YHZ-FRA would make much more sense than YHZ-FRA, the YOW extension would be expensive. YQB-CDG makes sense to me....at least as
57 Radarbeam : FYI Quebec City longest runway is 9000 feet. That's enough to accommodate a 767, maybe with a weight penalty, but the flight is probably not going to
58 Yow : Ah but Neil, it would only be inefficient in one direction. Just like YHZ-YYT-LHR, domestic pax could be carried on the outbound. But for a city the s
59 Yyz717 : But for a city the size of Ottawa, nonstop YOW-FRA could easily be supported, even without a stop in YHZ.
60 FLYYUL : Whatever it is, the brilliant workers that are by majority elected outside of Montreal. So where do you think their focus is going to be? Just liek th
61 Rai : Why is it that Quebec has so much higher taxes, but the roads are in shit condition (especially compared to Ontario)? The difference driving across th
62 AC320 : What do road conditions have to do with airline service? Can we save the Toronto/Montreal/Quebec/Ontario Feud for the non-aviation forum, please?
63 FLYYUL : Actually Montreal has the most severe and at the same time the biggest contrasts of weather. Even if you fix up the roads, next unthawing season, the
64 Post contains images Superdawg : Many Cities and towns in Alberta go from -20 to 30 within 8 hours when a Chinook blows in!
65 Radarbeam : Why is it that Quebec has so much higher taxes, but the roads are in shit condition (especially compared to Ontario)? The difference driving across th
66 Skywatcher : Last week I drove from Montreal to Ogdensburg N.Y.,through Cornwall Ontario. Although I generally agree that many roads are awfull in Quebec, in this
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