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Toronto Island Airport To Expand.  
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Posted (11 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3775 times:

Toronto City council voted tonight 29-11 in favour of a fixed link to the Island Airport.

Despite lobbying from the idle wealthy, the tree huggers & other gliterati, TO council voted in favour of the economic gains that would come from an expanded Island Airport, including downtown jobs & more Dash 8 production in Toronto.

Yahoo!


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineH. Simpson From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 949 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (11 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3653 times:

Expand!?

I thought the Island(isn't it City?) Airport was almost close down because of lack of activity!?

anyway, nice to hear the Dash-8s being produced in downtown...:D


User currently offlineLymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (11 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3632 times:

Hopefully that planned Q400 operator will resume their startup plans. They could seriously take business away from AC et al. Even VIA Rail could suffer!


buhh bye
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (11 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3625 times:

What's the record of past attempts in this market? I.E. City Express? And why are they no longer around? Does REGCO really stand a chance with this, or will everybody lose with an expanded island airport with similarly low levels of traffic in the future?


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2070 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3595 times:

The key words are `fixed link'. No more time-delaying ferry ride.
I would think all systems go for REGCO and the Q400.



` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineDripstick From Canada, joined Dec 2001, 2364 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3587 times:

Neil, I hear WestJet is coming in. They will be only using their oldest B732s and appyling full reverse thrust upon touchdown.

I believe they're calling it "Condo-Rocker" service. Yee Haw!!!

 Big thumbs up

Dripstick




What's another word for thesaurus?
User currently offlineA380 From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 658 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3578 times:

I am for the expansion of YTZ because it's important to attract business into downtown Toronto. I always think it's better for a person to go to downtown Toronto to land at YTZ rather than YYZ (then fighting the traffic on 427 and QEW). Also YTZ is very useful for medavac flights as well. (remember the cluster of downtown hospitals)

User currently offlineGmonney From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2159 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3513 times:

Hey Vincent, I think in the future the GTAA will cover you problem with fighting traffic, they are going to be putting a rail link from YYZ - Union station, the way i look at it, thats convienent!!

I will try and find the link from the GTAA website

Grant



Drive it like you stole it!
User currently offlineA380 From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 658 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3506 times:

But people still have not had a consensus on the feasibility of a YYZ-Union rail link, and AFAIK no one had expressed interest on building and running it.
At least we already have the basic infrastructure in place at YTZ.


User currently offlineLymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3510 times:

What's the record of past attempts in this market? I.E. City Express?

If I'm not mistaken, City Express had actual mob ties. I would trust the mob for many things (such as off-ing annoying a.net memebers!!!....hehehe, joke joke) but not to run an airline. Additionally, comparing the airline industry from 1988 to now is completely ridiculous. Another matter is the fact that the Q400 is much different than the early models of Dash-8s and slow, fuel hungry Dash-7s that City Express was using...Qs can fly farther, faster and more efficiently. To top it off, it's Toronto built! Even the idiot mayor will like this deal.



buhh bye
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

Lymanm you make good points. I just hope they are not too optimistic with their projections and end up bankrupt as is the case with 99% of all Canadian startup airlines.


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineCch362 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

The fixed link to Island Airport had been planned for about 70 years. Work actually started on a tunnel in 1935 and was terminated after two weeks due to politics.

It's ironic that the City Council needs another approval now, after having originally approved building a bridge across this 500-foot "gap" back in 1983. Maybe this one will finally end the debate over the fate of the airport once and for all. I certainly hope so.

Based on its history though, I just won't hold my breath for any significant changes at Island Airport. But in an idealistic scenario, I would love to see Q400s and BAe146/ARJs taking off against the backdrop of the Toronto skyline!


User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3458 times:

Nuno you are going to make me hurt you...you know full well the track record of Mr. Deluce, and the potential of the TCCA. City Express was trying to operate in competition with a full blown Air Ontario operation during poor economic times....Jazz is not less then half of the operation it once was at the TCCA, and I'm sure that Mr. Deluce has spent a long time researching the project, you don't get $550 Million from private investors just because you ask nicely....

I also wanted to clarify, this isn't really an expansion, they are improving the existing facility and replacing old, and out dated facilities with new ones, they are not expanding runways, or adding terminals, rather they are removing old buildings and putting one new one in. The word Expand was used by Community Air and other such nonsensical groups to try and defeat the airport, we as the aviation community should not be so "liberal" with our words...I cant wait to see the fixed link, this is a project that is 50+ years in the making, and I think it will be the first step in using the facility to its full potential, without going beyond the restrictions set out by the city. The fact that locals are so stupid that they thing flying a CRJ into the TCCA is going to make more noise then a turboprop just goes to show how much research the put into their argument against the airport.


I'm done ranting for now  Smile



"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineSkywatcher From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 456 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3448 times:

I quess the real estate developers lost this round but I doubt they'll give up.

IMHO,that beautiful, retro airport is interfereing with their plans.

I don't think they really mind the fixed link so much (it'll eventually be needed no matter what happens to the island) but any growth of the airport is contrary to their interests.

I once saw a list of the 100 wealthiest people in Canada and Toronto real estate developers were very, very well represented on it. Their plans count big time at city hall.

Maybe if the Downsview airport is freed up for development (like Cartierville airport in Montreal was) they'll back off from the island airport.



User currently offlinePilottim747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1607 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3408 times:

Here's a link to the story in The Toronto Star on 11/29/02: Bridge to island okayed

Dripstick, are you serious about Westjet? I think that'd be a sight to see a B732 land at Toronto City. Longest runway is 4,000 ft., right?

pilottim747



Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3405 times:

Hmm wonder how much service this airport will take away from YUL  Smile  Smile  Smile


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineDbailey62 From Canada, joined Oct 2002, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3399 times:

It seems that the downtowners don't realize, or won't accept the premise, that a Q400 is a lot less annoying than many of those single engine buzz saws that generally use the airport.

Also it's ironic that all these condo types at Harbourfront who are so worried about additional pollution seem to live so happily right next to the Gardiner Expressway and Lakeshore Blvd.

db


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3377 times:

It seems that the downtowners don't realize, or won't accept the premise, that a Q400 is a lot less annoying than many of those single engine buzz saws that generally use the airport.

Also it's ironic that all these condo types at Harbourfront who are so worried about additional pollution seem to live so happily right next to the Gardiner Expressway and Lakeshore Blvd.


Exactly! I'm one of those rare Harbourfront condo types who's in favour of UNBRIDLED Island airport expansion! A noise study was done a few years ago that showed that the Island Airport only contributed 3% of the ambient noise at Harbourfront.

City Express was trying to operate in competition with a full blown Air Ontario operation during poor economic times

Not quite. City Express was in financial trouble before AO started flying to YTZ. When AO started, CE was down to just the 3 Dash 7's (the 4 Dash 8's had been removed).

this isn't really an expansion, they are improving the existing facility and replacing old

Correct. In City Express' best year, they handled about 600K pax at YTZ (I think it was 87 or 88). Now AO only handles about 120K/year. The REGCO proposal will only bring traffic back to earlier levels.

Dripstick was just joking about the 732 at YTZ! BUT I WOULD LOVE THAT!









Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineGmonney From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2159 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

Hey Neil, Slawko was thinking about spotting down at the lake front one day? A little change....we just have to get a sked i guess.....and go from there....might be fun!!!!

Grant



Drive it like you stole it!
User currently offlineDripstick From Canada, joined Dec 2001, 2364 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3364 times:

Hey Neil, Slawko was thinking about spotting down at the lake front one day...

Definitely a good idea, but can we wait about 6 or 7 months? Then we can all spot from Neil's penthouse and get a good view of the entire airfield and adjoining nudist beach.

Dripstick



What's another word for thesaurus?
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3361 times:

Hey Neil, Slawko was thinking about spotting down at the lake front one day...

Sure, but there's not a hell of a lot happening. Just Jazz Dash-8's. Only -100's, not even -300's. But soon........the Q400!

Definitely a good idea, but can we wait about 6 or 7 months? Then we can all spot from Neil's penthouse and get a good view of the entire airfield and adjoining nudist beach.

Sure! Summer's best. I look west over the Inner Harbour. You can see everything coming & going from YTZ (once again, it's not much). If the wind's up, I could take you sailing.









Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineA380 From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 658 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

I am for the expansion because it should be good for Toronto's economy and not for our spotting fun. However Dash8 Q400 is just good for YTZ; CRJ is too noisy in my opinion, based on my experience at Boeing lot.

User currently offlineLymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3308 times:

The runways range from 2700 ft to 4000 ft. I don't think you'll see RJs there because 4000ft is very tight for an RJ. I know ASA operates ATL to EYW with the CRJ-700, but the 700s have leading edge slats, which help the short field performance. Neither the 100s or 200s (of AC and AC Jazz) have them. However, Jazz's 146s could fit there quite nicely. I recall Air Atlantic did some tests there in the late 1980s (and my childhood memory recalls a picture of a 146 at YTZ on the cover of some Canadian aviation rag); the 146 is ideal for airports like City Centre.


buhh bye
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3291 times:

Yeah, an Air Atlantic 142 (in CP colours) made a much publicized visit to YTZ in 1990. For years after, BAe had billboards all over downtown about the 146.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6659 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3251 times:

What routes will YTZ have?All I know is that Ottawa is served from there currently(YUL too?)

25 Slawko : REGCO is plainning YUL, YOW, as well as NYC, ORD, and other points withing I think 500NM of Toronto, mostly major business cities.
26 Post contains images Dripstick : Ya know if the runway was just a wee bit longer, I bet WestJet would serve YTZ before YUL. After all, YUL is overserved. Dripstick
27 Post contains images Slawko : Lets just say I would be that WJ would take their chances into 4000FT at YTZ before they even think about going into YUL's 11000FT
28 Yyz717 : After all, YUL is an over-served market (as small as it is). "YU'L have to wait a long time for a flight out of YUL". ...as the saying goes.....
29 FLYYUL : Hey Neil expert in economics, glad to know that you chickened out...
30 Yyz717 : I keep hearing how hyper you were Mark at YYZ. ....must have been all the aircraft movements....you're not used to such a big airport.
31 Noise : God you Torontonians are pathetic! I mean you guys are really, really sad. If I did know any better, I'd think you guys are 2nd graders. Can't you guy
32 Slawko : Oh please, its all in good fun...Noise if I didnt know any better I would think you are from Toronto, talking like you have a pickle up your ass...we
33 Captaingomes : Oh c'mon noise, it's all in good fun. Ask Mark, he met us all (except for Neil) and I think he got a good impression of us here. We were definitely ve
34 Post contains images Noise : Alright, that's cool I guess. Didn't really know. Nice to see you guys finally met Mark, maybe one day you guys can come here to YUL. Oh but wait I fo
35 Post contains images Slawko : No there just aren't enough flights between YYZ and YUL we could get all 8 or 9 of us out there on the same day
36 Post contains images Noise : Yeah I guess so.
37 Yyz717 : Why don't you jump on an apperatus MD-83 LOL Nuno!
38 Yow : Kudos to TO city council to finallllllllllllllly expand YTZ. Actually Neil, the last time my dad flew into YTZ about 2 months ago (he loves the conven
39 FLYYUL : Actually Neil, With all due respect, I was impressed with Toronto.. but its nothing special, its no JFK, no MIA.. The truth remains that you chickened
40 Lymanm : An article in the Globe said that this was one of many votes FOR the bridge in the past 10 years, yet none of them resulted in the bridge *actually* b
41 Noise : Speaking of trains, the use of trains in Canada has soared at an unbelievable rate. Perhpas trains are taking over on the Quebec-Montreal-Ottawa-Toron
42 Post contains images Teej13 : You know, on the one hand, I like the idea of the fixed link to YTZ. Here's why: 1) The economic potential of a quick hop over to NYC on a Dash-8, com
43 Yyz717 : I'm not surprized that YTZ traffic has fallen to 80K. Jazz rarely offers seat sales from YTZ. Everyone I know who flies from YTZ says that the flights
44 Yyz717 : Good points Teej13. Both City Express & Air Ontario flew YTZ-EWR and then dropped the route. Not sure why. US Airways Express flew ROC-YTZ for 18 mos
45 Post contains links and images Gmonney : Good news everyone, looks like CO Express has tested the airport and will start service this spring. Look out YUL, soon this island will be bigger and
46 FLYYUL : Hyper? So Neil, you would know because you were there right? Or maybe your trying to prove a point? You didnt chicken out? How do I take your "I dont
47 Post contains links and images Mark_D. : Well let's see what happens now. I'll believe it when the cranes and cement mixers are out there, maybe by April or so when the snow's melted. And of
48 Post contains images NorthStarDC4M : I'm very happy about this. REGCO i have a funny feeling is gonna realise the Q400 is too big pretty quick and switch most of its order to Q200s, thats
49 USAFHummer : 4000 ft. for a 732 is entirely possible, Alaska Airlines serves an island in the Aleutians with a 732 that has a 4000 ft. runway... YES I KNOW IT WAS
50 Yyz717 : USex tried ROC-YTZ with the Beech 1900D. It lasted about 18 mos until summer 2000 I think. Soon after they started the route, Air Ontario added YYZ-RO
51 Q400 : Now that there is a GO to build the bridge, any clue as to when REGCO will actually place the order with Bombardier for the Q400s?
52 Slawko : Mr. Deluce was on TV the other night and he is ready to place the order as soon as a start date for construction is officially set, he said it takes a
53 Dbailey62 : All I can say is that I hope that this development eventually has some impact on pricing. At present, it costs the same to take Jazz to Ottawa as it d
54 Captaingomes : I will still go against the wave here and suggest that REGCO will have a tough time, at least initially. Too many people have deflected to train and r
55 Yyz717 : Nuno, I completely agree with you. It will be damn hard for REGCO to operate 70-seat Q400's profitably from YTZ. He should start with used 100's or ev
56 Post contains links Yyz717 : Did you all read the following article in the Globe & Mail yesterday? The author is against airport expansion. Her arguments are ridiculous....she cla
57 Captaingomes : Interesting article! Of note, there are positive environmental gains from the Toronto Island Airport expansion. Noteworthy, in my mind at least, there
58 Yyz717 : These rich idle downtown tree huggers want the best of both worlds: to live in a lively downtown environment somehow shielded from the transportation
59 A380 : I concur with Captaingomes and Yyz717. In North America there was an era when great progress was made in infrastructure like railways, roads and airpo
60 Lymanm : This woman appears to have a cottage in Georgian Bay, so it's almost a sure thing she drives an SUV. What a hypocritical, self-riteous skank. Toronto'
61 Slawko : HEHE I like here quote about Venice and how they used to deal with polluters, someone whouls execute her for polluting a good paper, with mindless dri
62 Post contains images Yyz717 : What a hypocritical, self-riteous skank. Ballet dancers, who dance with bloody toes, broken ribs, and tyrannical schedules claim that ambient aircraft
63 Skywatcher : The whole Canadian STOL (short take-off and landing) industry was designed for close-in city airport operations back in the seventies. YTZ was the sho
64 Dbailey62 : Thanks Lymanm. That was a little mental typ-o on my part but it doesn't change the point I was making, which was that I hope to god that some real com
65 Yow : Of course, the big question is, can they afford to get into a war with the bully of the block? The bully will of course argue that they are just being
66 Yyz717 : A price war at YTZ is just what is needed to generate traffic. I used to fly to YUL on business a lot and was able to walk to YTZ. Until my corporate
67 Crj 900 : A couple of points. You'll never see the 146 at the Island, they'll be gone soon. Jazz wants 39 CRJs and they'd like 'em quick, so in order to do so,
68 Slawko : Unfortunatly Tree Huggers think jets are louder and not safe, and so you will probably never seen any jets at YTZ///
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