JayDavis From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 16 Posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3200 times:
I hope that the people who voted "No" to the latest contract proposal enjoy living on food stamps and welfare for the next few years!
I cannot understand how some idiot union member would choose not to allow their employer to lower their wages while they could continue to have a job. What other choice do they have? Look what happened at Eastern if you need some evidence of how idiotic union leaders can bring down a carrier.
I'm sorry, I have no sympathy for any of the mechanics who will no longer have a job if UA is forced into bankruptcy! Each one of your fellow employees have given and given, yet you selfish bastards continue to make it difficult for UA to stay in the air!
I hope all of you union mechanics that work for UA starve to death who voted "No" to the latest rounds of concessions and I don't even work for UA !! Your membership is a bunch of Morons in my opinion!!
JayDavis From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3143 times:
From what I've read, every group, including the pilots have given in to wage concessions. Am I wrong? If so, I'll eat some crow, but from what all I've read and heard, EVERY group at UA including pilots have taken wage concessions, except the mechanics.........
MD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3127 times:
Jay I do agree that it makes no sense to turn down a 7% paycut in order to get a 25-45% pay/benefits cut through the bankruptcy court. I think my Dad would call that cutting off your nose to spite your face. My old Marine Gunny would call it stepping on your dick.
I can only assume that the stress of the past years and bad advice has got many of this mechanics not thinking objectively. We have the luxury of looking from a distance, while these mechanics are surrounded by conflict. They 'screwed the pooch' (my dog walker's term/I worry about him) but some may not realize it until the pink slip arrives.
Strickerje From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 723 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3115 times:
Disregarding the decision of United's mechanics, I'd suggest you take a more benign approach if you wish for people to consider your point of view. For example, regardless of whether you were right or not, the following passages most likely turned people against you right from the start:
I hope that the people ... enjoy living on food stamps and welfare for the next few years!
I have no sympathy for any of the mechanics who will no longer have a job ...
yet you selfish bastards continue to make it difficult for UA to stay in the air!
I hope all of you union mechanics that work for UA starve to death ...
A job is a symbol of one's livelyhood. Saying you hope someone loses his job is like saying you hope they starve to death. Oh wait, you said that too. Take a moment to think how well your statements will be received by your audience, and show a little discretion!
JayDavis From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3100 times:
I thought about EVERY word I said and I don't feel any grief or sorrow over any sentence I wrote.
These idiots are not going to have a job PERIOD after the bankruptcy filing. I would MUCH rather continue to have a job, even at a lower wage, than not earning any wage since many mechanics will be completely out of a job with no chance of ever returning..........
I have no sympathy for their selfish acts against UA !!
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3083 times:
Hey tough guy what about UA's greedy SOB pilots HUH?????
Bagmasher, in the pilot's place, you would have taken the same damn deal if it were offered to you-any of us would. That's not to dismiss the fact that pilot's unions-no matter what carrier, are the biggest crybabies around. They make the most, and bitch the most. But blame management for that faux pas, not the pilots. It was handed to them in this case.
Dc10guy From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 2685 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2951 times:
Right -on Jaydavis !!! The CEO's are only looking out for the employee's best interest's. Just like Enron. But them greedy employee's still want health care AND a paycheck simply for coming to work and making airplanes fly away safe ??? What nerve. In this sluggish economy some CEO's have taken bonuses that are (in some cases) less them 7 figures! Their doing their part why won't them worthless mechanics do theirs?
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
Gr8slvrflt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1604 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2858 times:
As an Eastern survivor who walked a picket line for four and a half months I can sympathize with their plight. The most important lesson I learned during that difficult period was not to judge others. Yes, it does appear that the UAL mechanics are cutting off their noses to spite their faces. But sometimes taking an unpopular stand takes a lot more courage than following what seems to the rest of the world as common sense. I do hope they fully appreciate the consequences of their actions and don't expect a "white knight" to come in and rescue them. Best of luck to all concerned~
ContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2833 times:
United will no doubt file for Chapter 11. Whether the carrier will go under or not is difficult to predict, but it will not survive as the #2 US airline under Chapter 11. I would bet that it would become the 3rd biggest carrier, with Delta picking up some of the slack from United's retrenchment.
Godbless From Sweden, joined Apr 2000, 2752 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2771 times:
The mechanics must have some reasons why they said no. But what this shows is that they are the group that feels the least connected to "their" United Airlines and after a (maybe will happen) rise to healthier altitudes should one by one be replaced by people who want to help their airline stay alive and not only by fixing planes. And what those mechanics should know is that they are nothing really hard to replace since there are many of them wanting to get back to work (As mentioned: Ex National mechanics for example).
And if I would be the CEO of UA (or whoever is responsible) I would do everything to replace the oposition in the company.
And another aspect which isn't really common in the US today is to have other airlines maintain your fleet.
Lufthansa with it's partner company Lufthansa Technik is in charge of the maintainance of the fleets of more than 200 airlines worldwide.
And if you consider the reduced fleetsize of all US-airlines after 9/11 then other airlines should be glad to be able to fill up capacity in their hangars by working for other airlines.
For example Northwest could take care of the A320 and 747 fleet and AA could handle the rest or however it is cheaper for UA...
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2766 times:
There will be some major problems if UA does go belly up !!
It will be a blow to the overall economy if UA were to cease operations-something I can't even fathom, even as an employee at a competitor. But, if you think about it, it will be a boon, at least in the short haul, if UA goes under, because it takes a ton of capacity out of circulation, and will drive people to other carriers. One problem right now is that there are way too many empty seats out there right now, and with UA (and most likely US as well) going under in the worst-case scenario, it would greatly benefit the surviving carriers.
UPS Pilot From United States of America, joined May 1999, 871 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2761 times:
This "us vs. them" mentality has always been no good for the airline business. Think about how much better the airline industry would be if everybody worked for the common goal. It seems as if a company makes a profit everybody wants more of the pie. This thinking has led to this result. You can blame 9-11 or the poor economy all you want but since the profits that were made during the good times were used for higher salaries and lavish spending. These carriers are faced with bankruptcy because they didn't put enough away for the rainy days. Management and Unions combined!!!!
UALrampORD From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2742 times:
JayDavis, I think you are being a bit harsh about saying you hope they starve to death and enjoy living on welfare. They are people just like you who have busted there ass and went years without a contract. I dont agree with them on there vote, but at the same time I dont blame them. It would be a shame to see a family of 5 go on food stamps. By the way, this post just shows how much of a heartless bastard you are.
Pmcdonald From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2705 times:
I support Jay Davis' post and I hope that it is not deleted. While strong in tone, the ramifications of the union's decision are huge and will no doubt have dire consequences for UA. I think the answer to the question of why they voted the pay cut down is simple: poor union leadership. There has been some talk of this being a courageous move on the part of the union-to take a stand. I say that it absurd. It is anything BUT courageous.
LMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2679 times:
I think Mr. Davis has taken a rather simplistic view of the situation at United. In addition to that his remarks show a bit of "ignorance" on his part. It's easy to attack someone and call them an "idiot" when you are totally removed from the situation they are in.
While I believe that UAL AMT's made a mistake I can understand their frustration. UAL mechanics went for years without a contract. They watched as the pilots got everything they wanted and then saw the company play hardball with them. Then there was that little adventure with Avolar. UAL was prepared to spend billions on biz jets while at the same time saying they were short on money. To top it off a lot of UAL AMT's don't even want to be part of the IAM but they are stuck with them due to the way the system is set up.
With that said if it were me I would have voted for the 7% paycut. Better 7% now than possible Chapter 11 and even bigger pay cuts. Then there's the fact all that ESOP stock will become even more worthless than it is now. It's obvious that they let their emotions make the decision for them. Never make an important decision while your upset.
P.S. For those who blame Eastern mechanics for the downfall of Eastern one had better look in the direction of on Frank Lorenzo.
AA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2681 times:
Pmacdonald--The IAM 141M leadership recommended STRONGLY that their members accept this agreement. I know one of the things they were upset about was that after Goodwin handed ALPA their contract on a platter, he went to war with the IAM. It took Goodwin's departure to get the mechanics a contract--knowing that concessions were on the horizion.
On the subject of Goodwin, should the unions have gone on strike to prevent the ill-advised merger attempt with USAir? How about when UAL senior management embarked on the Avolar project when the fractional ownership market was already saturated? What recourse do the employees have when those entrusted with their lives and careers are seemingly determined to undermine the financial health of THEIR company?
You can't have it both ways--you can't ask the employees for unquestioned loyalty and boundless sacrifice while depriving them of the opportunity to thwart irresponsible behavior by senior management.
This vote was an act of desperation by a group that had patiently waited for their reward to come, only to be greeted by demands for givebacks. If you haven't been in the shoes of those who voted no, you cannot know their motivation. I have been there and I understand. It may not be right, but I do understand their motivation.
Goodwin and Dutta are enjoying their multi-million dollar severance package while nursing their bruised egos on a tropical island somewhere, I would imagine.TC
Pmcdonald From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2635 times:
On the leadership issue: I am aware that IAM urged their members to accept the wage concessions. However, I am still of the opinion that poor leadership is what brought this situation to this point (and I do mean leadership-or lack there of-on BOTH sides). I would argue that the fact that the union members did not heed the recommendation of the union leadership is a perfect illustration of a leadership problem in and of itself. PM
: I don't think Jay is taking a simplistic view of United's present troubles. Its quite simple, either the big American carriers cut costs, cut capacity
: The IAM is one of the most idiotic unions around. I really don't see why anyone wants to be represented by them. This is the union responsible for put
27 Alpha 1
: P.S. For those who blame Eastern mechanics for the downfall of Eastern one had better look in the direction of on Frank Lorenzo. That's only a half-tr
: Jay Davis, you need to understand US bankruptcy law a bit better. I'm not an attorney but here's my rudimentary understanding. Chapter 11, which Unite
: I somewhat agree with JayDavis's orriginal post. The mechanics are making more than most other United workers are making, aren't they making something
: I believe there have been major layoffs in United's management ranks AND they have taken paycuts. Given the number of line employees vs. management, t
: Yes UAL must pay 325 million next week and that is why it is believed they will file for Chapter 11 in the next week or two. Chapter 11 does NOT mean
: hlywdcatft: Don't expect to see any person adequately qualified to run a company like UA to do it for 200 grand a year (which would be about 100 after
: The bottom line question for United and all the struggling carriers is...how much of a pay cut has management...particularly the upper 6 & 7 fugure gu
: I agree with some of you that have posted recently saying that management should ALSO take some pay cuts. That is a very good suggestion. I still have
35 Fokker lover
: It seems that most of the people here are making the wrong assumption that a yes vote would prevent a chapter 11 filing. As a dues paying IAM member I
36 UAL Bagsmasher
: I couldn't agree more! I am attending A&P school right now, and I have since come to respect the "lazy" mechanics at the airlines. It is not all fun a
: .....follow their idiotic union leadership...." Actually Mr. Davis if you knew a little more about the situation you would have realized that the IAM
: UALBagsmasher I now see the source of your anger against pilots. If you were in college or flight school right now instead of A&P school I guess you w
39 UAL Bagsmasher
: Well, that's one reason. The main reason is that the pilots used their ability to screw UA more than any other labor group. They have the advantage of
: Yes they do have final say as you mentioned. They also have the FAA on their side to back up any decision the captain makes. There are so many instanc
41 UAL Bagsmasher
: See, you have an insider's understanding of how the airlines run. Thanks for your perspective. All these armchair CEOs in this forum make me sick. The
: Pmacdonald--Maybe it's more a case of the monster that the IAM leadership created. You build a radical, hard-line union and then wonder why the member
: Did anyone read MD88 Captains post in this topic??? I am an AMT in ATL for the same airline and I have 3 dogs.....and walk them all myself!!!(Isn't th
: Enjoy the food stamps and soup kitchen this Holiday Season! I am not living in some aviation fantasy. I am a management employee for a foreign airline
: Well, I certainly disagree with the union's decision, but there are a few things you must keep in mind. One big problem with the machinist union is th
: Back when things were going full-bore (late 1990s) the unions' battle-cry about how the execs were making millions made their own case look sort of se
: Re-Regulation will NEVER return. Deregulation has been the spark that led to success stories like Southwest Airlines and JetBlue. Yes, there have been