UALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2042 times:
Just a couple of myths that I am tired of seeing in this forum:
1) UA will cease flying.
If UAL (the parent of UA) files for Chapter 11 I will be at work the next day. UA planes will continue to fly. Service will remain the same.
2) UA will retire older planes in the fleet.
This is a forgone conclusion, however the next person who says UA needs to retire its 727's and 737-200's will get hit over the head w/ an albatross.
3) UA will get a new CEO.
I don't know where to begin on that fallacy.
4) UA's employees got UA into this mess.
UA's employees had nothing to do w/ this mess. The economy, poor management from the previous leaders, and 9-11 had everything to do w/ this predicament. This is an insult to EVERYONE at UA from the CS agents and the folks at the airport to the sales folks and middle management folks in WHQ an around the system. We have endured the senseless killing of colleagues and passengers in our care. The bickering of management and the Union leadership. The slurs and insults of some in the internet crowd. The useless leadership from a series of ineffectual leaders. We have pulled together and are leading the industry in many of the field the DOT keeps track of.
5) UA's financial woes have lead to poor maintenance.
Fortunately posts of this nature have been removed. THANK YOU A.net
6) Good bye UA.
See #1 and this comment add NOTHING to a discussion of the How, what, when, UA will pull through this mess.
7) Boeing and Airbus are going to repossess planes.
UA owns MOST of its fleet. On the other hand that's what Chapter 11 prevents. Creditors from foreclosing on debt. UA's management will not allow a debt payment from taking away assets, they will file before that happens.
8) Who gets what when UA folds.
Again this is jumping the gun in the extreme. UA will not change a wit the day after it files for chapter 11. It is not even close to liquidating so any Ideas that the remaining carriers will cherry pick of UA is a bit premature. Who has jumped in to cherry pick US and they are much closer to chapter 7 than UA.
9) Let competition weed out the weak.
I am a person who belives in capitalism. I understand it. I cherish its virtues. I have studied it in school. This is not competition. This is predatory destruction. Despite what some who have EVERYTHING to gain and nothing to lose by UA's fileing Talk about a BIAS opinion. I can't see a company of 80 thousand people being brought down by a few men as free market economics. Before you mention Enron, that was a conspiracy in the board room, that was a giant fraud perpatrated by the officers and accountants. UA isn't a fraud.
There is a ton of useless nonsense in ALL of the UA threads in here. I for one am sick of it. There I have said it. I haven't flamed anybody, or used any harsh words.
MD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1287 posts, RR: 22 Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2015 times:
Of course you are sick of it. Your company is under siege from within and without. And the truth is that no one really knows whether UAL will make it or not. For your own sanity I'd suggest you take a rest from the speculation. I don't really think you will or can. Neither would I if it were my company in this distress, but the speculation will continue.
BTW. It doesn't really matter whose fault it is. Their will be plenty of blame to go around. I hope UAL employees can put the rancor behind in order to rescue what remains.
DIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 30 Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2003 times:
Most everyone out here in Denver agree as well. UAL will survive come hell or highwater. This isn't just wishfull thinking. . .it's just understanding how businesses work under varying conditions. Of course the media will squeeze it for all the panic-stricken statements it can muster out of this whole ordeal. . .which is probably where most people are getting their notions of "Goodbye UAL" among other newsey sounding vices.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
ChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 3804 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1999 times:
My Christmas wish is to find a United Airlines Boeing 777 on eBay. I'll buy it and operate it on a Manchester (NH) - Manchester (UK) nonstop and name it 'Manchester United.' Sorry if anyone is an Arsenal or Nottingham Forest fan!
Tbird From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 851 posts, RR: 22 Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1941 times:
As stated by MD88Captain UAL is under siege and the spotlight is on you guys. Trust me I know how it feels my company is also under siege and so far everybody has counted us out, and yes you do get sick of hearing it, but get used to it. Everybody has their opinions and their aloud to have their opinions.
My advice show them you can do it. We use the story of Apollo 13 as our role model, everybody thought Apollo 13 was done for but they overcame countless obstacles and they made it. As Flight director Gene Kranz said "I believe this will be our finest hour". That's how you have to think or you will fail.
Artsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4741 posts, RR: 43 Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1858 times:
UA's employees had nothing to do w/ this mess.
What a crock, so, the pilots had nothing to do with fighting to get a 38% raise, the pilots had nothing to do with getting a 55% share of the company along with the mechanics etc (which has been proven in almost all circumstances to make managing a company virtually impossible.
AlaskaMVP From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 150 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1852 times:
United employees definitely are responsible for this mess. Remember the summer of 2000, when United had its customer-infuriating pilot slowdown? Think that endeared UAL to it's customers? Do you think if the many frequent fliers who switched and never came back were still UA customers it would be losing $7M per day?
And the end result was that a board controlled by the employees caved in and gave employees unsustainable pay increases that drove UAL into bankruptcy.
If it's management that's at fault & incompetent, well, the employees selected the management. When Jim Goodwin spoke the truth that UAL was facing bankruptcy a year ago, his bosses (the union reps on the board) had him thrown out on his a** and ignored the warning. No CEO can be hired by UAL unless the union board members agree, which means the CEO is hopelessly compromised from day 1. Hopefully the bankruptcy judge will realize this and send Tilton on his way.
Rick Dubinsky, the former head of United's pilot's union, famously said pilots didn't want to kill the golden goose, "We just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg." Well, the employees choked it a little too hard, didn't they? I think the goose expired
Everyone believes in capitalism until it's their turn to compete, then it's why me? UAL wasn't sunk by "a few men", it took 80,000 shortsighted employees to do it.
Flyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1850 times:
UALPHLCS, if I were you I wouldn't bring those back. I heard of a flight attendant getting fired for eating one piece of food which would otherwise have been thrown away. I'd say just put it in you past, forget about it, and to not do it again if you feel that strongly about it.
DIA77 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 700 posts, RR: 7 Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1809 times:
Nice post. I'm 1K on United and I will stick with UA through thick and thin. This past weekend I was flying on AA from DEN to CMH via ORD. My ORD-CMH flight was cancelled on AA and I spent the next 4 hours trying to get on an AA flight (not AA's fault since it was weather related). However, I was treated somewhat rudely by the AA gate agents (I'm sure they were getting yelled at by other passengers so I don't hold anything against AA). After having no luck getting on AA flights, I walked over to my home away from home (ORD terminal 1) and was treated like a king by the UA folks (they honored my AA ticket and gave me a prime seat on an incredibly busy travel day). The little things that UA and it's employees have done for me when I travel make all the difference in the world. I have flown the other majors quite a bit and I really don't think anything compares to UA. We all have different experiences (depends on the day), but consistenly UA has come through for me and I know that they will emerge stronger than ever. They have great employees, great planes, and great hubs.
KaiTakFan From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1585 posts, RR: 7 Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1798 times:
Excelent post UALPHLCS! I am sick of these nonsense in all of the UAL posts. I just dont read them anymore. The reason why is I just dont know where everyone seems to have their magic viewing balls! It seems everyone in most UA threads are fortune tellers as well as the next best thing to Airline CEO's who know just what is best! I do agree that the next coming months wont be pretty. However, I do look forward to what the future holds for UAL. And to those who blame this all on UA employees... get real!
UALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1779 times:
Please people about the stuff, I was kidding.
What happened in 2000 was terrible. I do blame the pilots for it. But it was also one of the most unnessasry things that UA management ever put up with.
I blame the pilots for what they did.
I blame UA management for letting it happen.
If UA had better leadership they would have done what AA did when there pilots called a sick out just months before. They went to court and got an injunction. MAnagement ran to court ONE DAY after the IAM 141M started a slow down. Why did Goodwin roll over for ALPA.
They caused the customers grief, CS was living a nightmare as was Reservations and Sales. The Piots did what they did only because THEY WERE ALLOWED TO.
All through that nightmare it was UA employee's the F/A's, the CS agents, the Rampers the Reservations agents that pulled together and did what they could for passengers who without being able to do anything to the real culpits in WHQ and the cockpit spit in our faces. We whiped it off and rebooked them on another flight.
Don't tell me that UA employees did this. I certainly didn't do it. UAL777contrail did not do it. UAfa@jfk didn't, and niether did anyone lower than the executive suite at WHQ. WE had to clean the mess.
AA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 14 Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1761 times:
I hope UAL comes out of this ok.
But...I also hope the UAL pilots who are in the COS C130 AFRES remember back in 1996 when you went up to a friend of mine and squadron mate who was at TWA and told him "why don't you guys just do the right thing and go out of business?". Fate can be cruel. I hope your experience with financial troubles doesn't last as long as TWA's.
DIA77 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 700 posts, RR: 7 Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1717 times:
I had a regular AA ticket but I'm guessing that since there were weather related issues UA agreed to honor it. The UA agent was able to lookup my AA ticket (since it was an e ticket) and issue me a UA boarding pass (I actually received UA ff miles for the ORD-CMH leg). Maybe an agent can clarify how this works? UALPHLCS any insight?
DCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4402 posts, RR: 38 Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1705 times:
Very good post, UAPHLCS. I'm not convinced at this point that UA will make it, but ya'll have a fighting chance, even in bankruptcy. Even those of us who strongly support low-fare carriers, should *not* take any pleasure in the suffering of employees at network carriers like UA. (There might be pleasure in inflicting suffering on Jim Goodwin, say by hurling livestock over the ramparts, but that's a different story )
In the end, my impression is that the unholy alliance of Jim Goodwin, seeking market share, and Steve Wolf, trying to sell failing US Airways, is the biggest contributor to UA's situation. Both of them should have been paying attention to their airlines, to their employees, to their markets. They thought DOJ would roll over. But in the face of ferocious consumer & Congressional opposition to UA-US, DOJ stood firm. Now you all are paying the price for their empire-building.
UA would still have had to drastically reduce costs to deal with the reality of low-fare carriers, and the horror of 9-11. But maybe UA would be in a less precarious situation, more like AA or DL, had there been competent leadership at the helm, and had the pilots thought about someone other than themselves.
Spark From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 431 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1690 times:
Being from the Bay Area, I'm scared of the possibility of a United death.
Personally, I can't really see it happening. I'm an optimist, and believe that congress will not let one of the big three waste in the wind. (I also wouldn't have believed Pan Am would die either, but I did believe the SF Giants wouldn't move to Tampa).
One of the SF congresswoman (Ellen Tausher) just raised a huff about the refused loan guarantees. I can certainly see the Colorado, Illinois, and Virginia congress contingent rallying around United cause.
BTW, I feel real sorry for the CS agents, who have always did their best in the miserable summer of 2000. I'm sure 99% of UA pilots are equally dedicated, and just want the best for thier airline. They only followed along with the slowdown because of Union comittments.
FutureFO From New Caledonia, joined Oct 2001, 3095 posts, RR: 24 Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1651 times:
UA will stand but there will be concessions made on all sides and not by choice. There will be more Cities given to Express companies and I known that is going to tick alot of UA Employees off, and I am sorry about that. I know that when we at ACA took over at MBS a UA agent told a passenger that they were losing their job to a scab airline. I cannot express how that comment pissed alot of people off at ACA. Also when I worked in JAX we do have alot of UA commuters and former employees who came to work for us. I know that there are rumors that UA will take over some of the cities that they lost to OO,ZW, and DH. Tough Tango that is not going to happen and that is the truth. Also with UA declaring bankruptcy work would probably shift to the Express carriers and that is fine by us. I hope that we all take a long look at where we are at and hopefully things can turn around, just like CO on their 3rd Bankruptcy filing.
I Don't know where I am anymore
25 Ual777contrail: ualphlcs, what a pleasure to read youR thread, l know we'll get through THIS. UNITED WILL STAND UAL 777 CONTRAIL
26 Airbus Lover: I hope United will make it... They've treated me well when I had the chance to fly on them. As much as I might agree that most UA employees have cause
27 Android: Received this E-mail today from United "December 5, 2002 =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Dear Mr. Android(edited) It is n
28 De727ups: Well....this is the way it works. You go to buy a car and you try to get the best deal you can, right? Pilots were trying to do that same thing....alw
29 FLY777UAL: It's all about the bumper stickers and pins! Have quite a few of them at home, and a few here in San Diego! F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
30 Vikingivest: Employees in general have to make a decision whether they want to take a long term view, or squeeze the company for all they can get and risk it foldi
31 61Heavy: When Jim Goodwin spoke the truth that UAL was facing bankruptcy a year ago, his bosses (the union reps on the board) had him thrown out on his a** and
32 Dc10guy: Yo Mr. UALPHLCS, (#1) United has always had top notch aircraft maint. anyone who says otherwise is "talking out their ass" (#2) With the republicans i
33 EWR757: All of this cheerleading and such for UAL still does not change the hard facts. Their financials are in terrible shape, they have no viable business
34 Alpha 1: 1. I don't think anyone here knows exactly what's going to happen. To say for certain that United will survive, or that it will be gone by 2004 or wha
35 EWR757: Intelligent and accurate thoughts. My opinion is that your suggestions are too little to late. This type of thinking needed to be embraced long ago.
36 Ybacpa: I'm sure many who have dedicate their lives to United are rather upset about the latest news. I don't work for United, nor have I ever worked for Unit
37 Coronado: I just hope UAL has the right management team for the times. The fate of airlines that have gone into Chapter 11 and either went completely out of bus
38 UALPHLCS: My list was a list of Myths. Opinions and Jumping the gnsenarios that had no basis in fact other than it used the names of current airlines. Some thre
39 Greg: I like United. They have been a served me well the last few years across the Pacific--and have become one of my carriers of choice for international t
40 Ybacpa: UALPHLCS, You are confusing myths with opinions. My personal favorite on your list is #3. There is absolutely nothing wrong with speculating either wa
41 ONT 737: WTF is with these work rules? "United is the only airline in the world that is still contractually required to include a licensed mechanic in the crew
42 FlyPNS1: UALPHLCS said: So far as I can see the difference between UA and the others is While AA and the rest are cash rich they are asset poor, UA is cash poo
43 OH-LGA: United is not going anywhere soon. That is a fact. They could file Chapter 11 tomorrow and still be flying 4-5 years down the road. This is, of course
44 UALPHLCS: In defense of my original thread: I understand that people are allowed to have opinions. This Website is in the free world. However some opinions that
45 JC5280: Great post UALPHLCS! Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you on one thing though. It really was UA employees that caused this mess. I am sure it wa
46 Ybacpa: I do agree with you on the factually lacking posts of others, I've misunderstood some things in some posts I've made (not just related to UA), and I a
47 UALPHLCS: If you mean that UA's current management team will leave once the airline is back on track, that is a possibility I don't discount. The stress just th
48 AlaskaMVP: From today's Wall Street Journal, here are the main carrier seat mileage costs. United - 11 cents USAir - 10.95 cents (Any wonder that USAir and Unite
49 N79969: To echo what Greg said, I also really like United and want them to survive and eventually prosper. Best of luck to you guys.
50 UALPHLCS: Jim Goodwin said UA would be dead 1Q 2002. I wasn't in the board room but I gotta tell you Goodwin wasn't writting that letter as a lets fix our probl
51 Padcrasher: So here it is Friday, the Government has denied the loan, stock is down to 80 cents per share. Here's the head of the pilot union at UA http://biz.yah
52 DCA-ROCguy: From today's Wall Street Journal, here are the main carrier seat mileage costs. United - 11 cents USAir - 10.95 cents (Any wonder that USAir and Unite
53 AlaskaMVP: UALPHLCS, Maybe we don't disagree, I don't hold any candle for Goodwin, my point was only that the CEO of United for the last 8-10 years has had to pa
54 ToFlyToServe: Hey, why don't all those LOYAL FF flyers stop using their miles for a while and just buy their tickets. I mean can you not use your miles when UAL pul
55 EWR757: The employees and the unions do not have a grip on reality. Unreal with the financial storm swirling around them.
56 9844: I just watched an interview with Mr. Tilton, this guy just doesn't get it...To say that the employee's enjoyed a good experience with the ATSB, is jus
57 Ladevale: UALPHLCS states: "While AA and the rest are cash rich they are asset poor, UA is cash poor but asset rich." This statement couldn't be more wrong. Bot
58 Ual777contrail: Reading some of these posts, Some of you must be pretty out there. I have never read so much nonsense. All you arm chair quarterbacks out their who th
59 9844: Yup chapter 7.... That's my opinion.. While Tilton and the rest of the board members agree that the barn is burning, seems to me, their just standing
60 Boeingfan: UALPHLCS You make excellent points and I agree whole heartedly with you. UA will continue to fly, and if they really restructure correctly (like CO di
61 UALPHLCS: Time to ressurect this thread. More Myths, Bullcrap and wild fantasy stories about UA's death are out in force again. "The rumor of my demise has been
62 MSY-MSP: Glad to see a somewhat positive UAL thread. I agree with UALPHLCS. I have read the bankruptcy filings. While they don't paint a pretty picture of the
63 Apathoid: Hmmm....9 major carriers filed Chapter 11 in the last 15 years. 6 of them never emerged. Continental is twice a "success" story, if you want to call i
64 UALPHLCS: As everyone is so fond of saying UA is not CO. It is not PanAM either, and unless you all just got back from the future you haven't the faintest clue.
65 N79969: Cheerleading aside...either unions have to cave soon or the company will need to break the backs of the unions. There is little middle ground.
66 UALPHLCS: Yes there is middle ground: The Unions, despite the stupid notions of militants like Dubinsky, Have much t lose and little to gain by forcing a Compan