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Small Jets And New Payscales  
User currently offlineEssentialpowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1613 times:

With the demise of UAL and continuing excess capacity industry wide, shouldn't American and the other hub and spoke carriers develop a pay scale for the small jets? Ie, "staple" the seniority list for the small jet pilots to the bottom of the mainline list. This would:

1. Provide job security for both mainline and small jet pilots, therefore helping to calm stock volatility on Wall Street due to contract negotiations. This would, in turn, provide a stabilizing effect for the other labor groups (mechs and FAs)

2. Establishing flight crew pay at a lower aggregate cost than a 100 seat a/c (obviously seat mile costs would increase) would recenter the total flight crew costs for an airline, simply b/c the equipment is smaller. A small jet CA/FO that earn approximately $160 per hour (total) in their 5th and 3rd years, repectively, that operates at around 52% average capacity would be profitable for the company.

3. Provide "seamless" service and a direct input on quality control, which was the impetus several years ago for the mainline carriers to purchase regional feeders in the first place.

4. Certainly small jets can work in a hub and spoke model, or in point- to- point service, which provides typical small jet compatability to establish new routes and providing Federally required basic air service.

In short, labor costs are by far the largest cost for an airline. There is too much capacity in today's market, so small jets could help re center (lower!) total costs while increasing overall load factors and profitability. Just for info:

UAL, 10yr 747-400 Capt's base pay as of 5/1/02 = $315.98/hr
UAL, 10yr 747-400 FO's base pay as of 5/01/02 = $214.71/hr

For the Recovery plan, these would change to (same seniority):
$259.10
$176.06.

Opinions?

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFilejw From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1568 times:

Well thats still higher than what NWA pays now on a 400.

User currently offlineSean-SAN- From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 768 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1555 times:

Firstly, major carriers incur a lot more cost from pilots then just hourly pay.

Firstly, all the majors have generous retirement plans (pensions) that pay pilots 40%-60% of the average yearly income of the last five years of service after retirement. None of the regionals offer this, saving them literally millions of dollars PER pilot. The average retirement payments for a AA,DL, or UA pilot is over 1 million dollars.

Second, major pilots enjoy much nicer working rules -- including more days off, not working on off days, limits to amount of flights per day, etc. Work rules at regionals are much tougher, allowing the airlines greater flexibility.

Lastly, UA pilots should top out at the industry low! The argued they deserved industry-leading wages since they were so great, and now it's obviously UA is the industry laggard. So they should be at America West rates, witch currently top out around $150/hr for a senior captain. Long haul pilots perhaps get a 20% bonus.

-Sean


User currently offlineEssentialpowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1505 times:

There is certainly no reason a scaled retirement can't be established for a single list carrier, as well as better work rules.

The point was the single list. It'll be interesting to see what APA does with their notion of a single list for American...


User currently offlineAA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1483 times:

Back to the future. I the 70's and 80's many of the majors flew 65-70 DC9-10's on short haul markets. Republic had CV580's, OZ had FH227's the major airline pilots now realize that flying is flying and it should be done by them.

They also realize that with commuters running around, management will play them against each other. As for retirement, I think you need to have some payoff at the end of your career. Not everyone(in fact only a small percentage) of major airline pilots retire off large widebodies. Many will finish their careers on 757's or MD80's--at pay well below the top scale. In fact, many of the pilots hired will only have 15 years or less to work at the major.

Allowing the commuter people to flow up into mainline--in reality making it all mainline eventually, is a bonus. You don't have to spend your days off sending out resumes and worrying that you'll be stuck at a commuter the rest of your career.

I hope AA sees the benefit of "Onelist". Big grin TC



FL450, M.85
User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3888 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1426 times:

Essentialpower - good points but a few comments.

I'm all for 1 list in the red tail family... only if there are fences put up within the seniority list to ensure minimal job loss. Also, I refuse to be stapled to the bottom of the list. There should be a seniority intergration. Why should I get stapled to the bottom of the list and be junior to someone who in esssence I am senior to?

Interesting though, how the mainline pilots are seeing the fact that "flying is flying" now when their jobs are being threatend and their companies are shrinking. The back door one way deal that NW has with Pinnacle is the most rediculous agreement ever and should never have happend. The funny thing is though that some NW pilots are getting denied employment by PCL.

There is already seamless service with the red tail network, as far as the passengers are concerned. NW doesn't own Mesaba outright but controls 100% of what we do. Our CEO is a figure head and the star of a puppet show really... but as an employee of an airlink company we are reminded everyday that we aren't worthy of being treated like NW employees just because we fly smaller planes.

The biggest benefit to one list would be the end of the whipsawing tactics and the elimination of scope. If it were based solely on that it is the best deal ever for a "regional" airline and it's employees. There is already a resolution on the table at the MECs of NW, XJ and PCL for a one list company. How long it takes and how it is implemented is uncertain. But there will be happy and unhappy people in the outcome. The most unhappy group will be management because they'll learn they won't be able to treat the "regional" folks like scum and as if they work in sweat shops.


AZJ


User currently offlineCV640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

I see the one list proposal at NWA going no where. NWA higher ops like the three carriers, easier to play them against each other, if we did get one list they'd just bring other players to the table. The recent Bigsky purchase by Mesaba shows this, also there were rumors of Mesa flying as an Airlink last year.

As for the letter of agreement to hire NWA pilots at Pinnacle, I have no problem with it. They have to interview, yes there have been number who were tured down but we did hire some really good pilots. Some seem to really wan to give this a shot, those who had an attitude that this was beneath them were rejected. Maybe this will allow for more unity with future contract negotiations, who knows.

As for the ending of the slave type treatment at a regional, I'm hopefull, but we have a long way to go.


User currently offlineEssentialpowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1401 times:

A single list would eliminate the moniker "regional", which is a misnomer at best, and allow an airline to properly scale equip to demand.

Wonder when folks will figure that out?


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3888 posts, RR: 28
Reply 8, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1398 times:

Essentialpower: NW already has all the benefits of what you suggest in the current situation. The only people being hurt by it are the Airlink employees, and they simply don't care. NW very effectively commits capasity to demand... and does this probably better than any airline out there - hence the high load factors. By controlling the "regional" affiliates through contract and not ownership they get all the benefits of owning them, but not having the different cost structures involved. Much like the virtual mergers NW has with KL and CO - that other airlines are finally catching on to... all the benefits of a merger, but without the costs and union issues.

CV640 - I don't see this one list thing going anyhwere anytime soon. But I think it will be a good thing when it does happen. The biggest problem I see with the backdoor one way deal that PCL has with NW - is a certain LOA21 signed by PCL MEC and MSA MEC. We have an agreement that is clearly being circumnavigated for whatever reasons, be it pressure from NW or just blatant disregard for following a mutual agreement. To turn around and accept a "deal" for NW pilots who now, when the deck is stacked against them look to an airlink for a job, but disregard an already set in stone agreement is outrageous. Not to mention the fact that they at NW didnt even have to give up their seniority numbers! I know there is that 18 month comitment, but heck, you would have had a career comitment basically by an XJ furloughee.

AZJ


User currently offlineJ32driver From United States of America, joined May 2000, 399 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1389 times:

Why in the world would an express pilot even think about accepting a "flowthrough" or a single seniority list at this point in the industry?

3 years ago when the airlines were hiring like crazy, express pilot's were screaming for this and the majors wouldn't give us the time of day. A flowthrough then wouldn't have hurt anyone. Now that the guys from the majors are hitting the streets, all of a sudden they start talking about how there should be a flow. THe only problem is a flow would put my entire company on the street so that the guys at the majors can take my job.

Why should I sacrafice the job I have when the mainline guys made it very clear they didn't want to help us when times were good???????????????


User currently offlineFilejw From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1384 times:

One list will work because in our next contract we will have a scope that includes all flying done by NWA.We negotiated clauses into our contract that allowed other people to do our flying[a 20 yr old mistake]and we can negotiate them out.

User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3888 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1381 times:

J32 - we're not talking about a flowthrough/flowback here... we're talking about the merging of seniority lists. Sure, only now are the mainline carriers giving us the time of day, but this time it will be to our benefit too.


AZJ


User currently offlineAA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1332 times:

J32--The reason you won't be furloughed by flowbacks is that the RJ area is where the majors will grow in the next decade. There are still hundreds of RJ's on order and the ERJ-170 hasn't even come on line yet.

The President of my union is trying to sell the commuter guys on the potential for flying Captain on 777's with the flowthrough. I say try to sell them on MD80 Captain or WB right seat. It's still a hell of a lot more money than left seat of an ERJ-135 pays.

And, once on the list, we start working for better benefits for everyone rather than 'galley slave' workrules you all have now. And, if you get a better offer from SWA, FedEx or whoever, you can still jump ship. The industry is going to be stagnant for awhile anyway. You can try to get on at a carrier outside yours but if you don't, you have a number.

Take care. TC



FL450, M.85
User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6582 posts, RR: 55
Reply 13, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1332 times:

It still seems a lot of money even after cuts. May I ask what hours it is exaclty measuring? Flight time hours? Block hours? Duty hours? Do the pilots not get a monthly salary? What if they only do 30hrs a particular month? They get paid very little?

User currently offlineJ32driver From United States of America, joined May 2000, 399 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1318 times:

What do you mean its not a flowthrough/flowback? Being stapled is the exact same thing. If the bottom 800 guys at UAL are on the street and we get stapled, which 800 guys do you think will wind up on the street?

Besides, you guys are missing the fact that management will never have it. Whats cheaper... merge the lists and have mainline mechs/rampers/csr work the flights.... or use the express carriers and have the cheap mechs/rampers/csr work the flight.

I had an AA cpt jumpseating with me tell me that the AA pilots union went to management and offered to fly the RJs for the remainder of Eagles 14 year contract AT EAGLE PAY RATES... and the management told them to go get bent!!!! Sorry guys, I don't think it will happen. And your right, down the road when the airlines are hiring I'll apply to whoever I want. I'll have a job then, and I'll keep my job now because I'm not going to give it to some mainline pilot because he's on the street and thinks it should be me and not him.

Its funny, up until about 4 months ago I thought a flow or staple would be a good thing, but I've realized I don't want to flip burgers for the next 5 years while the majors get their crap straight. Screw 'em. I'll happily fly my RJ for 6 figures until I retire. Hell... thats damned good money. More than my family made when I was groing up and I had a damned comfortable childhood!!!



User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3888 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1307 times:

J32 driver - I fully understand that the merging of seniority lists will be stonewalled by mgmt. As I said in an earlier post, they will be the biggest naysayers of this proposal. But we'll have to show them that it will still save them money, improve customer service and still allow them to compete effectively in the marketplace.

By they way... we're not going to let ourselves get "stapled" to the bottom of the NW list. That will never happen. This is also in an exploratory situation and by the time it comes into effect, the airlines will be in better shape and nobody will be on the street. It isn't going to be easy, but the industry is changing. I'm sure you don't want to be used and abused the rest of your life do you? I don't know what airline you fly for, but I sure as hell won't sit around and be treated the way I'm being treated now for the rest of my career at Mesaba.



AZJ


User currently offlineJ32driver From United States of America, joined May 2000, 399 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1263 times:

AZJ... my apologies about working for Mesaba. Mesaba was the airline that I desparately wanted to get hired at when I started 4 1/2 years ago. You are definitely getting the BIG PURPLE SHAFT from your management team with this whole Bigsky bulls**t. I'm sorry... you've got a great group of pilots that deserve better than your getting.

When the airlines get turned around and start hiring again, that is when the Unions for the majors need to approach us about a flow/staple/integration or whatever you can get. It will pass and I'd vote for it. But if they try and do it now it just makes them look like whining little kids who want to steal my toys because theirs broke.

There will be a time... now is NOT it.


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3888 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1239 times:

You're right... now exactly isn't time - because the scary reality is that it will mean tons more job losses. But we have to start the ball rolling now, so that when things do pick up, we'll all take advantage of the benefits of the 1 list situation. Stuff like this isn't going to happen overnight, so now is a good time to get started on it.

As for working for Mesaba... don't feel sorry for me. I love working for Mesaba and am proud to be a line pilot for them. The people at Mesaba are its best assett and we have a great bunch of folks here at XJ - especially the flight crews. This is still a great place to work, only we're just experiencing the typical contract blues. It too will pass and life at Mesaba will get back to what it once was...


AZJ


User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1206 times:

If one wants a retirement, a single list is the only way. Someone is going to have to determine an RJ payscale at the majors; the last majors to get it will be the next added to the "chapt 11" list.

Auzjubilee,

Do you really think ALPA will support anything other than a bottom staple for your list at best?

Who's writing the checks for the Mesaba fleet?

The ALpa dues from all the "regional" jet carriers combined don't equal those from NWA alone; $$$$ talks. I'd love to see you get integrated, but there's not enough "smash" to get it done...


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3888 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1199 times:

Who knows what will happen... this idea is still in an exploratory phase. I know though, that if we get stapled, not many will be happy at our level. Supposidly, ALPA represents the best intrest in all ALPA airline pilots... so with that said, they'd look out for both "mainline" and "regional" ALPA groups. But, as you say... $$$ talks and face it, NW ALPA dues contribue way more to the bottom line at ALPA than my paycheck ever will. What's so damn rediculous is that there is a divide between the pilots that belong to the SAME union representing both groups. ALPA treats us different as a "regional" even though we do exactly the same thing. But again... it's all about $$$$$.


Time will tell.


AZJ


User currently offlineFilejw From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1193 times:

EP, AZJ, ALPA has a merger policy and most of these things end up in arbitration.

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 21, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1173 times:

Another thing about the whole "integration" process, is another reason for regionals being more effective is that all other employees get paid significantly less than mainline employees. We're talking about the F/A's, mechanics, rampers, CSA's, etc. All that contributes to make the regionals more profitable in certain markets where the mainline carriers break even.

The only carriers that an integrated seniority list would work would be for NW and AA. NW and their airlink carriers XJ & PCL are exclusive to only NW. Same over at AA with Eagle.....but I don't know how the whole AX / Trans State thing would figure in at STL. I don't see such a thing happening with UA since ACA and Skywest work for for than one airline.

I can see we're talking about the difference between integrating a seniority list, but it almost seems like bringing the regionals "in house" therefore either bring everyone's pay up to mainline standards our providing some sort of a "B scale" pay for those on the "regional" side of the operation.

Something is gonna happen sometime.


User currently offlineAA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1169 times:

Rome wasn't built in a day. No single list proposal is going to be perfect initially. No one has ever done it.

The proposal that I have heard about is to not displace regional pilots with furloughees but to bring people back as new RJ's show up.

How long do you figure the 6-figure pay for regional pilots will last? Comair already priced themselves out of the market. DAL is now using Chautauqua in low yield MCO. Great. You sign a contract that pays you $115/hr. in 15 years and immediately the airline begins to try to find someone cheaper to do your job. It worked when mainline pay got where it is and it will be the same with the regionals. Management is already admitting that 37-44 seat RJ's aren't economical--they just provide necessary feed.

The only constant is change.TC



FL450, M.85
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