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Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!  
User currently offlineDouglas DC-9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 303 posts, RR: 2
Posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2770 times:

I got into a talk with a man at my farm and he said that he was once on a turbo prop aircraft with diesel engines! Is this posible? I would almost guess "no" due to the fact that diesels need a lot of air in order to operate. Was he telling the truth, he didn't seem as if he was "sloshed; or drunk" but someone please tell me if this is possible.

Thanks Much,
Daniel


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21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offline2912n From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 2013 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2757 times:

There is a light civil that is currently going through certification that is powered with a diesel engine. From what I have read it is the first diesel powered a/c. (But don't quote me on that one...)

User currently offline2912n From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 2013 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2754 times:

Silly me....Heres a website that talks about one from just after WWII

home.earthlink.net/~ralphcooper/pimagf30.htm


User currently offlineSccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5520 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

Jet fuel is essentially the same as Diesel fuel.

In addition, there are several groups which are working on, or have certified, diesel engines for use in general aviation aircraft. They are, in fact, likely to be the longer-term future of general aviation powerplants, as aviation gasoline becomes scarcer. The new diesels burn Jet A fuel just fine.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

I was speaking to one of our engineers the other week whilst they were changing a fuel pump on an A343, and he was saying that jet engines work on the same priciple as diesel engines, in the way they compress the fuel to ignite it, without the need for a spark as in petrol engines. He also said that Kerosene is basically another form of diesel too.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineGr8slvrflt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1606 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2728 times:

Diesel aircraft engines such as the Junkers Jumo were quite common on German civil and military aircraft before and during World War II. BMW also made diesel engines, I believe. Diesel engines use compression to initate cumbustion, rather than a spark plug or other form of ignitor. Even if a turbine engine could be made to run on diesel fuel, it would not technically be a diesel engine.

User currently offlineT prop From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1029 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2697 times:

It is possible to run a turboprop engine on diesel fuel, I've seen a turboprop ag plane that runs on diesel.

If this guy is saying that he was on a turboprop that had diesel engines, then he wasn't on a turboprop. The only thing in common that a turbine engine has with a reciprocating diesel engine is they are both internal combustion engines.

T prop.


User currently offlineDouglas DC-9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 303 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2634 times:

Thanks for your input. I do know that Jet fuel is NOT the same is Diesel. Diesel is very heavy; and thick and cannot explode; it is also oil based, I also know that jet fuel is very light, and just a simple static-electricty spark will set it afire!

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2626 times:

Diesel fuel and Jet Fuel are both members of the Kerosene family. Other then water and wax content, both are practically the same. And neither is particularly easy to light. You need compression and heat to light it off. I would not consider either "sparky" in any sense of the word.

The military fuel JP-8 is very close to Jet A and the military has used it on both aircraft and vehicles. I have fueled a lot of construction equiptment with Jet A just to make sure that the fuel wouldn't gel where they where working, (Alaska) that is one of the big reasons for the low wax content in Jet vs. DF1 or DF2. The wax exists as a lubricant for some of the internal machinery in the engine, so in warm weather you want it in there.

There are some jet engine fuels you do have to be more static aware around. Military JP-4 is the big one, but that is all but removed from service in favor of the JP-8. I have never worked with Jet B but I am under the standing that it is simular to the JP-4 mix and should be handled simularly.

There various forms of Avgas and Autogas worried me more about sparking off then the diesel fuel.



By definition a turbine engine is actually a multifuel engine. In addition to jet fuel and diesel oil, there are some that where used as booster engines on piston powered aircraft that burned Avgas. The powerplant here at ANC burns natural gas in their turbines and the powerplants for the pipeline tap crude oil from the line for fuel.

And in just about every POH for a turbine aircraft will have a table listing alternate fuels and operating limits. Some limit the time the engine can be run. Some limit the amount of fuel that can be burn. Some will require additives such as engine oil to be added.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAC183 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 1532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2595 times:

"turboprop" and "diesel" are really contradictions, as they generally refer to totally separate types of engines.

As for similarities in the jet engine (or gas turbine, or Brayton Cycle engine) with an engine running on the Diesel Cycle, I'm not sure you could classify a continuous combustion (turbine) engine as being the same as a compression ignition (diesel) engine in terms of igniting the fuel, but the thermodynamic cycles do have some similarities.

As for the fuel question, as L-188 said, both diesel fuel and jet fuel are basically kerosenes. Both have flashpoints that are much higher than gasoline (IIRC, gasoline has a flashpoint of around -40C (-40F), which is why it's so dangerous, whereas kerosenes are around 40C (~100F)) (also note that flashpoint is the lowest temp that the vapours can combust, but is not the same as autoignition temperature).

Diesel engines tend to be heavier than similar spark-ignition (gasoline) engines, and usually operate at lower speeds, but are longer lasting, have better torque curves, and are able to burn different fuels. The last reason is the biggest part of why general aviation aircraft are beginning to look at diesel power.

Further to the similarities of fuels... saying "jet" or "diesel" fuel has no real meaning beyond application - the exact composition will vary depending on the conditions they are blended for use in. For instance, I've heard of turbines burning diesel, and if you look up acceptable diesel fuels in a heavy equipment operators manual, it will list a variety of fuels that can be burned (IIRC from a certain Caterpillar diesel engine, I seem to recall a couple of grades of "diesel fuel," as well as a few kerosene derivatives). For that matter, diesel fuel sold here in western Canada will vary in composition by season to prevent it from "gelling" (basically freezing) in the fuel tank.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2583 times:

SUCK BANG BLOW! SUCK BANG BLOW!

That is what any combustion engine does.

80 octane or red fuel hasn't be available for probably 20 years.

I also have never seen green gas which was the 100 octane lead gas. It went out about 30 years ago.

Both where pretty much replaced when 100LL or Blue Gas was introduced on the market.

I have seen purple gas, which if memory serves was 115/130. We found in it a WWII vintage underground fuel tank we had to clean up. The supervisors pickup truck, which had a 350 Chevy in it ran really really well with it in it.

As far a pink diesel fuel, there is only one possibility and it is pretty scary.

A few years back, I think it was the US treasury department (I think) ruled that home heating oil had to be dyed red to differentiate it from identical diesel fuel for trucks and cars which have more taxes associated from it. The idea for them was to stop jobbers from selling home heating fuel at auto diesel and keeping the governments share of the taxes.

As has been mentioned above, 80 Lead is also dyed red, so this proposal got a lot of fire from AOPA and some of the other aviation groups but it pretty much fell on deaf ears.

What ended up happening where I worked was that the same tanker would make home heating fuel deliveries (red diesel) and then stock up and make a round of the big construction project(clear diesel) filling up their equipment. Enviably since you can never empty a tanker that completely the diesel that was for machinery took on a pinkish color because it was mixing with the dyed fuel. It is all the same stuff but did make for a weird looking gas.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4200 posts, RR: 37
Reply 11, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2570 times:

There are several threads on this in the Tech/ops forum that will have a bit better and more reliable information.


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineT prop From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1029 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

I also have never seen green gas which was the 100 octane lead gas. It went out about 30 years ago.

L-188, I guess in Hawaii we're a little behind the times. The only thing we have around here for avgas is the green stuff. The only blue gas I have ever seen is at the bottom of a ferry tank.  Smile

T prop.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2567 times:

I didn't know that. It actually does surprise me T-Prop.

My understanding was that the supply of both 80 and 100 went to nil when 100 Low Lead came out and everybody went ape over trying not to burn leaded fuel oil.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2559 times:

I should add that I was also under the understanding that 80 octane remaind on the market for a bit longer since it wasn't as compatable of a substitute as 100 and 100LL.


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineT prop From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1029 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2537 times:

Compared to the rest of the U.S. there are not very many aircraft here that need avgas. I think the local Chevron refinery is the only one that produces avgas and given the small amount they refine, it's probably not worth switching to blue.


Although cleaning the spark plugs on a Navajo Cheiftain every 100 hours makes me wonder if the blue gas leaves less deposits than the green. If so I'm all for it!  Big thumbs up

T prop.



User currently offlineLMML 14/32 From Malta, joined Jan 2001, 2565 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2458 times:

727 Diesel !!


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User currently offlineFanofjets From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1984 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2384 times:

The Luftwaffe experimented with diesel engines on aircraft during the latter part of WWII. The huge Blomm und Voss Bv.222C, the seventh of the prototypes, was powered by Junkers Jumo 207C six 12-cylinder diesels (the precesessors featured radial engines). The aircraft served as a sea-borne troop carrier until a few years after the war, when it was scrapped. The leviathan bore the honor as the largest flying boat of the war, but it was quickly superseded at the end of the war by the Martin Mars.


The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
User currently offlineHmmmm... From Canada, joined May 1999, 2104 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2372 times:

SUCK BANG BLOW! SUCK BANG BLOW! That is what any combustion engine does.

That's also the sequence for every porn video.

With a POP! at the end.



An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
User currently offlineDavid_mx From Mexico, joined Nov 1999, 209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2364 times:

Well here there are:
Diesel 8 and Diesel 10

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Regards.
David  Laugh out loud





User currently offlineTeva From France, joined Jan 2001, 1872 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2353 times:

for those who want to know more about modern diesel engines, visit
http://www.smaengines.com/en/index_en.shtml

This program has been developped by Renault when they left Formula 1 at the end of the 90s.

Teva



Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2331 times:

The problem is that if you are in a helicopter and the engine goes "POP", well you have a bit more of a problem then just staining the carpet.


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
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