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BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!  
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2515 posts, RR: 1
Posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4178 times:

BA has changed it's Airbus order from 12 A318 to 10 A321 and 3 A319...
The complete story can be found here:
www.britishairways.com/press


Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5037 posts, RR: 44
Reply 1, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4044 times:

Correction: BA has changed its order for 12 A318 and 3 A319 to 10 A321.

User currently offlineGodbless From Sweden, joined Apr 2000, 2753 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4003 times:

This move does not seem strange to me at all since BA had reduced the number of A318's on order already before and the A321 makes more sense im my eyes.
But will these A321's be operated by BA? They had two planes ordered but they never flew for them but rather in a BA livery for another airline (GB?)

Max


User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3755 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3969 times:

Will they use the A321 for long fat routes at the weekend such as LON-TFS?

User currently offlineRichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3755 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3947 times:

Airbus can allocate A318s and 9s to easyJet now.

User currently offlineIkarus From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 3524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3839 times:

Richardw: Easyjet have no 318s on order...

So, if BA has no A318s on order anymore, who has? To be honest, before BA ordered them I thought the entire plane was a poor idea, but then I figured maybe there was some conomic sense to it after all. Now I'm back to doubting whether another shrink is a good idea...

Regards

Ikarus


User currently offlineDoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3421 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3742 times:

does Frontier or NWA?


When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offline717fan From Switzerland, joined Nov 2001, 2017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3733 times:

Frontier, America West, Air France, Egypt Air....have 318 on order.
To loose BA is sad for the A-318...


User currently offlineMadhatter From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3707 times:

Surely this shows that BA are planning on getting rid of the last few 757s. I thought that they had planned on keeping about 10 for their higher density routes but seeing that 10 A321s have just been ordered then surely this shows that the 757s are on their way out to make way for a more integrated Airbus short haul fleet save for the 734s?

User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2744 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3558 times:

717fan,

Actually, last month, EgyptAir also converted their order for 5 A318s to A320s. If the BA news is confirmed, that means that only 84 A318 orders remain, from a high at one point of nearly 150.

Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 854 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3404 times:

"only 84"??
Give the babybus a chanse...........The cabin is much bigger than 737N
plus much more env.friendly with the Cfm-engine!! Nuf said.
 Big grin
Michael Sthlm/SE
If UAL was on the top, I´ll bet they would order A LOT of 318´s, cuz
they dont want 737´s.



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3363 times:

Solnabo:

I would be very surprised if UA orders the A318 under most conditions; it is the analog of the 737-600, and, not surprisingly, is meeting with similar 'success.' It's going to be a niche plane in a very small niche.

I would expect a United to continue to order A319's as their smallest aircraft.

Steve


User currently offlineBackfire From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3327 times:

Just my opinion, but I think an important point is being overlooked here. It's another nail in the PW6000's coffin.

BA had been supporting the PW6000 programme...then it cut its order for A318s in half...and now it's shafted P&W again by getting shot of the rest.

How many PW6000 customers does that leave? Three?


User currently offlineMrLineGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

We need to remember the purpose of the A318, that being medium-long haul thin routes, such as transcontinental flights. The A318 is NOT designed for short quick flights as the 717 is. The 737-600 operates the same type of routes as the A318. Both the 737-600 and A318 are too heavy for short flights with quick turns (similar to DC9 and 717...)

Regards
MrLineGuy



More right rudder...
User currently offlineContinentalFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 357 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3224 times:

MrLineGuy,

Just look at how many 736s have sold (not a lot). It seems a 73G costs about the same to operate as a 736. I think the same applies to the 318 vs. the 319. Both planes face pressure from bigger variants from above and Jungle Jets and Flying Skidoos from below.

Mike.


User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3208 times:

COFan:

Exactly!

The A318 and 737-600 both have significantly higher costs per seat mile than the A319/737-700.

While it's true that the net cost is lower if your route fills a 318 and no more, airlines are looking more and more to abandon the thinner lines to the regionals and force connections on those passengers. There just aren't that many effective, 2500nm 100 passenger lines out there  Smile

Steve


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3192 times:

The PW6000 is delayed until at least 2006. Apparently there are some serious issues with the engine. Supposidly they need to re-design several major components of the engine.

Godbless,

British Mediterranean has a fleet of A321s, all of which are under the British Airways livery.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3182 times:

Solnabo:

The A318 with the CFM engine is more environmentally friendly than the 737NG? Doesn't the 737NG also use the CFM-56?

I tend to doubt that UAL would order the A318. It's to heavy for short routes number one and number two United Express can fly the same routes with RJ's much more cheaply.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3139 times:

Actually its arguable that the standard 737-NG CFM engine is more environmentally friendly than the standard A320 CFM engine.

The CFM56-7 for the 737 comes standard with a dual annular combustor, while its only an option on the CFM56-5B (an option which most European customers order, and most US customers do not).

N


User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2744 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3009 times:

Solnabo,

"Give the babybus a chanse (sp.)"

I'm sorry, but 3 years after launch, the A318 has lost nearly 50% of its orders. I went back and checked (and was later confirmed by the Orders forum) that the A318 at one point had 161 orders. It now stands at 84. If P&W can eventually get the PW6000 to perform as was originally promised, there is a minute chance that this aircraft could approach that 161 mark in the long run. If not, I can't see this aircraft ever selling more than 100 frames. Like the 737-600, it is simply too heavy (in fact, its slightly heavier than the Boeing) to match the economics of their respective, larger siblings.

"much more env.friendly with the Cfm-engine!! Nuf said."

Please read Gigneil's post, or better yet, the CFM website before making something up off the top of your head. Okay?

Nuf said. . .

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineA320FO From Austria, joined Oct 2000, 211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2945 times:

Environmental issues on the CFM56:

It might well be true that the standard version on the 737 offers double annular combustors (DAC), as this feature wasn't available yet on the A320s, due to their earlier development. But almost all presently delivered A320s feature the DAC on the CFM equipped versions. Only few airlines still order the "old" engine versions, mainly due to fleet and maintenance commonality.
But actually the first airplane to offer the DAC technology was the A320.

Concerning the efficiency, the A320 wins over the 737, as the -5B (and -5A) versions have a larger fan with 68.1 in diameter versus the -7 on the 737 with only 61 inches diameter. Both the -5B and -7 share the high pressure core, with larger diameter fan achieving the same thrust rating with a lower fuel burn, thus increasing efficieny.

This is one of the compromises (or limitations) in the 737s design, as using the -5B version would have required even greater changes in wing and landing gear design. The A320 family was originally designed with even larger diameter fans in mind ("super fans"), thus leaving room for growth on future versions.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2817 times:

With the recent actions by EgyptAir and BA, the future of the A318 is looking less promising.....it seems that Airbus is facing the same problems that Boeing has with its smallest airliners, the 736 and 717. I think a lot has to do with regional jets, including the new longer range models and the newer 70 seat versions being introduced. Do large airlines really want or need a 100 seat aircraft in their mainline fleets - either for thin routes (A318/B736 markets) or short haul/high frequency routes (B717)?

I find it interesting that both Boeing and Airbus has seemed to have misjudged this market.

I noticed that America West is on the list of airlines with orders outstanding, are they in the financial position to acquire new aircraft at the moment? And, what routes, they only have a handful of 732s left in service (if they are still in service) and are adding regional jet service aggressively. Seems odd.


User currently offlineDeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1701 posts, RR: 34
Reply 22, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2816 times:

The qualm with the A318 is that it is a short, heavy little aircraft, that will make turn-arounds more difficult. The A318 will run into the same problem that the 736 and the 764 has run into. It will be a niche-only aircraft, meaning that it will have it's runs that will make it highly-profitable, and anything else, it will drag.

In reply to DutchJet's Post:
America West is the second-strongest airline, financially, in the US right now. The only airline to beat them out is WN (Southwest). America West uses their 732's on short, shuttle-type flights between KPHX and KLAX, and I presume that the A318 will fill that route for them. On the subject of America West, I have been speaking with a few of their employees, and America West is currently looking towards buying A321's, to 1) Accomodate it's 757-capacity routes, and 2) To eventually replace it's fleet of ailing 757's. HP's 757's have been running into a lot of maintenenance problems lately. This is due to the fatc that they do a lot of desert, hot operations, and need constant TLC. But toher than that, HP is more than pleased with their 757's. Just a great aircraft! America West is the only airline in the US to achieve major status after the deregulation, and that being said, has had #1 on-time performance 5 months so far in 2002. Surprisingly, UA clinched last months #1 on-time performance (guess it's due to response of trying to step things up a bit).

Bryan
Chat Operator Delta767



Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2782 times:

Will the A321 be able to do the same hot & high operations that the 757s have been doing for years?


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineDeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1701 posts, RR: 34
Reply 24, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2779 times:

CX,
This is what puzzles me. A 757 can take plenty of abuse, as in HP instance. HP (America West) operates some of the older 757's in existance (ex-Republic, and ex-Eastern birds). I think the 757 has done well for HP. I'm sure the A321 would be able to handle it, but would it be able to do it as efficiently as the 757? Would they be able to take the constant 40 minute flights back and forth between PHX and LAS? I guess it's something to be seen. I think the A321 would be a prime choice for HP's EWR-PHX route though. Fit that route very nicely.

Bryan
Chat Operator Delta767



Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
25 Dutchjet : Just another thought concerning America West and using the A321 to replace the B752s.....I had heard that the A321 would have some capacity limitation
26 DeltaMD11 : Dutch, Nope, they never made it into NWA colors. Good point concerning the weight restrictions. The 757-200 is a rocket. Those RR RB.211-535-E4's prov
27 TEDSKI : This change by BA ordering more A319s & A321s instead of the PW6000 powered A318 will not really hurt P&W because BA ordered these aircraft with the I
28 CX747 : It will defintaley be interesting to see what HP does. In my opinion, this is where you throw "crew commonality" out the window and operate the aircra
29 GDB : Since the BA A318 order, BA has shaken up regional services, where the A318's were to go, RJ's like Avros are doing the work, plus 737's being shifted
30 Gigneil : I think the A321 would be just fine for repeated, short range hops, even on hot days. The place the 757 clearly wins over, really, every other airplan
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