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AC: YUL-SFO Suspension (short Period)  
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32783 posts, RR: 72
Posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1616 times:

For reasons I don't understand, Air Canada is suspending Montreal-San Francisco from 12 January 2003 with the re-start date currently planned as 15 February 2003. I guess they are going to have an aircraft shortage or something, I just think it is really odd. Second Montreal-Cancun frequency is being added, though.


a.
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1571 times:

For reasons I don't understand, Air Canada is suspending Montreal-San Francisco

The reason must be losses on the route, or at best poor prospects for profitability. Additionally, YUL-SFO passengers can perhaps be more efficiently routed via YYZ.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineGmonney From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2159 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1497 times:

The good thing is that there is still an option to get to SFO, it may take like 30 minutes longer....but you get to transfer through a great city and you will most likely be put on a brand new, well almost brand new A321.

Grant



Drive it like you stole it!
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1496 times:

Exactly. The YUL-SFO passengers will now boost the YYZ-SFO loads (a little) while freeing up an A319 for another route, such as YYZ-DFW.

Neil.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1494 times:

Considering it's just a month's cancellation, I think it's a little premature to call the route a failure.

AC cancelled BOS-YVR for a few months, but are bringing it back 1 March. I don't think they'd bring it back if it was doing that badly. And Canadian never had a problem with the daily A320 they flew.

Let cooler heads prevail. Thanks. Merci.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32783 posts, RR: 72
Reply 5, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1492 times:

The suspension is for only a little more than a month. I'm sure there is a reason why they chose to suspend YUL-SFO as opposed to suspending something else, but the route is coming back.


a.
User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 1456 times:

Neil, you're hilarious!


Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1454 times:

Gmonney The good thing is that there is still an option to get to SFO

Whew!

it may take like 30 minutes longer....

Or longer 'n that. Maybe even much longer, than that...

but you get to transfer through a great city

Ta-Da!

and you will most likely be put on a brand new, well almost brand new A321.

Aw  Smile



Yyz717 The reason must be losses on the route, or at best poor prospects for profitability. Additionally, YUL-SFO passengers can perhaps be more efficiently routed via YYZ.

Yes that's right Neil... process data..routeinterruptionfromYUL..trotoutstandardsetofreasonswhy... Thanks for not disappointin'!

Exactly. The YUL-SFO passengers will now boost the YYZ-SFO loads (a little) while freeing up an A319 for another route, such as YYZ-DFW.

How 'bout they're maybe just short a plane for a few weeks, and sun routes just given a bit higher priority?


P.S. what was that bit over on JU101's thread a few days ago.. about "what did I say to FLYYUL"? I didn't say anything to 'im! (why, did you guys get in a fight, or somepin' ?  Smile ) Plus, Croatia-Yugoslavia relations are getting a bit better, but it's still slow, not least of which because about a quarter-million Croatian Serbs still haven't gone back yet to their homes...




User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1397 times:

Yyz717 The reason must be losses on the route, or at best poor prospects for profitability. Additionally, YUL-SFO passengers can perhaps be more efficiently routed via YYZ.

Yes that's right Neil... process data..routeinterruptionfromYUL..trotoutstandardsetofreasonswhy... Thanks for not disappointin'!


Well, that reason for stopping a route would apply to any route from any city. Let me guess.....you think there is a conspiracy to keep Montreal from having nonstop flights to the SF Bay area right? Despite strong profitability? Yep, that must be it.  Yeah sure




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1389 times:

Yyz717 Well, that reason for stopping a route would apply to any route from any city.

It's o-n-l-y for a month! Could just be a temporary logistics-based hiccup, with planes redeployed elsewhere like maybe that second Cancun flight. Who knows?

Let me guess.....you think there is a conspiracy to keep Montreal from having nonstop flights to the SF Bay area right? Despite strong profitability? Yep, that must be it.

LOL, Neily  Smile


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1380 times:

It's o-n-l-y for a month! Could just be a temporary logistics-based hiccup, with planes redeployed elsewhere like maybe that second Cancun flight. Who knows?

Yeah. right. Let's stop a profitable route for a month and see if we make MORE money.

Dya think it could be a LACK of profitability perhaps ?????????






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1376 times:

Yyz717 Let's stop a profitable route for a month and see if we make MORE money.

Well it's unconventional, sure, but maybe they're using the plane on some other run (hey maybe even one outta YYZ). Who knows? If they were forever axeing the route, why would they even bother show a scheduled resumption date in February?

Dya think it could be a LACK of profitability perhaps ?????????

Anticipated profitability relative to some other deployment for the plane, --like a sun route, maybe-- yeah I'd say there's a real good chance that's what it's about.



User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1365 times:

WOW!

A YUL'er ADMITS (actually ADMITS) that a YUL route might be unprofitable!
C'est incredible.

I notice AC is not halting the YYZ-DFW flights....they must be profitable!

Well, look on the bright side, you can now fly from YUL to SFO thru DTW on NW. A little whirlwind of pleasure might even check you in for the flight.






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1362 times:

My Conclusion:

It sounds like an aircraft shortage. Now why drop YUL-SFO instead of some other route?

YUL-SFO is a long route. Therefore, it uses up a lot of aircraft resources, more than lets say YUL-ORD. That single A319 that is assigned on YUL-SFO probably cannot fly any other route during a single day except that YUL-SFO flight and the return trip.

I love it how you Canadians argue between YUL and YYZ and reasons why Air Canada dropped certain routes.  Big thumbs up

Keep it up, I need some humor after a long day of busy work.  Smile

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1355 times:

YUL-SFO is a long route.

Not relevant. A long route has potential for MORE profitability since the revenue is higher and still only has to cover the same "one" takeoff & landing etc. Airlines always have higher aircraft utilization when the routes are longer.

Hence, the conclusion is that longer routes are usually cut after shorter routes. So YUL-SFO must have been VERY unprofitable.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1349 times:

Yyz717,

Yes, whether a route is long does have a lot of relevancy.

The fact is apparently Air Canada is having aircraft shortages. Which would be smarter, suspending 1 YUL-ORD flight to free up an aircraft for a short period of time or suspending YUL-SFO to free up an aircraft for the entire day to operate SEVERAL frequencies on shorter routes? Lets say 3 flights?

Think about it. Most of the time when airline suspend routes for a period of time due to aircraft shortages, they suspend the one that is longest since it takes up the most aircraft resources.

It's done all the time. Air Canada isn't the first.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1349 times:

Yyz717 WOW! A YUL'er ADMITS (actually ADMITS) that a YUL route might be unprofitable! C'est incredible.

Peut-etre pas autant que tu y croyais, mon vieux  Smile No biggie, though!

I notice AC is not halting the YYZ-DFW flights....they must be profitable!

Well...bully for the AC YYZ-DFW flights then. Yippee!

look on the bright side, you can now fly from YUL to SFO thru DTW on NW. A little whirlwind of pleasure might even check you in for the flight.

LOL. Not a bad way to go. Better still though, why not pop over to Montréal sometime and you could give him your regards in person.

Cheers


User currently offlineSpyderz From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 651 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1344 times:

Typically longer routes are more profitable for airlines since their unit costs are more spread out like Neil pointed out. While revenue earned from short sectors tends to be greater per kilometer, the costs of operating a short flight are substantially greater per kilometer.

In all likelihood there is a shortage of 319's with some going into maintainence or something. The problem is that AC operates numerous flights with 319's and why this one was chosen as the halted route is probably due to poor traffic. End of Januray and beginning of February tend to be low times for traffic everywhere, except for sun seaking leisure flights. In order to start-up the 2nd daily YUL-Cancun flight which should be a success, another flight had to be taken out. So, AC decided to take-out the lowest preforming flight they had (this route still technically could've been profitable, but that would assume almost all of AC's routes were profitable) and switch it. I would be interested to know how long the 2nd YUL-Cancun flight lasts, and if it has a relation to re-starting YUL-SFO service.


User currently offlineLymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1308 times:

BA, put simply: an A319 in the air makes more money than an A319 on the ground and the A319 in question is in the air more on a trip from YUL-SFO than it is YUL-ORD or other equivalent shorter routes.

Yatta!



buhh bye
User currently offlineGmonney From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2159 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1282 times:

What I was trying to say a few days ago is that, AC will obviously have an alternative for YUL-SFO, sure it many just be a slow time for this route, and heck, maybe the aircraft is needed some where else, i am sure that routing people through YYZ is not that bad. I'm sure that AC could free up more aircraft by connecting through "hub's" in Canada. But there is still the demand for certian routes. I am sure that AC is scrambling to find a way to get profitable, and no i don't mean selling more aircraft and then leasing them back, i mean making money. First things first, I would get the old sky birds out of the sky and into the armchairs that AC has paid for 6 times over. I am sure guys like Cessnapimp would be and has worked for half their salary this past summer. Employees can be the biggest expense and having the long hauls costs a lot of money, I think every company that has been in existance for a long time is feeling the same way.

This is clearly a way to help make more money for AC, and if you don't like it....start your own airline or WALK,

Grant

P.S. we have to remember that AC has pulled, I think, 7 aircraft out of the fleet for Zip(732), i am sure some runs that used to use these aircraft maybe busy in the winter time?



Drive it like you stole it!
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 1262 times:

YUL-SFO is a flight that will be temporarily suspended.. come summer time, its a full flight amongst all of them...

In your little mind, all passengers can make a stop in Toronto. But with this stop, you lose your business pax to NW, AA, CO, DL which all become a player given a ONE-STOP.

YUL-SFO is a route with over 100,000 pax on it + potential connections. This is more than ample volume for Air Canada to do well on, and perhaps their YYZ flights are suffering, YUL gets the chop. Air Canada obviously knows this, because the suspension will last less than a month.

In the head of Torontonians, Toronto is the only market in Canada. But it is not. Montreal is a city of 3.5 million people, and I dont need to reiterate what comes with this.

The route will be back.......

Mark


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 1258 times:

For those who want to check availabilityfor SFO-YUL (which is full for the next week), please go to www.itn.net or http://flyaow.com/classavailability.htm for further confirmation..

As of Jan, YUL-SFO goes to 5 weekly, it is suspended for Febuary, and back on March6th daily.....

The 2nd Cancun flight was there last winter guys. It's a 2 frequency saturday deal. But again genius AC. Instead of a saturday and sunday departure, they go for 2 saturday A320. Fine, but why not just flew an A330 or B763 like aircraft? You can use the other A320 whereever you may wish from your Toronto wet dream.

Mark


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 1242 times:

Ive been in Florida for 4 days, ive missed all the action here... good to see when things are slightly negative on the YUL side, Neil re-becomes the pest that he is. FYI, this little whirl of wind that Neil refers to at least at the integrity to show-up with the little student money that he is earning. The chief expert in economics with his feet toasty in his condo looking over the polluted lake, was not interested....... I wonder why..

YUL-SFO is not an unprofitable flight. The loads are very good on this flight, especially during summer. I remember this summer walking to US CUSTOMS where we had to fill out the load sheets, and you always say Air Canada's big 3 full flights AC 930 MIA, AC 797 LAX and AC 672 SFO. Save me the whole yield stuff, I know this was a big flight, just like YYZ-DFW is with its 37% load factors but thats a different topic all together  Big thumbs up

Now according to the CEO of ADM, Air Canada is looking to establish an evening bank of departures to California from Montreal. With the new finger opening up, Air Canada which would otherwise not have gate space, has it now. Air Canada in the past was running operations in the PM to MIA and LAX, which were good for the summer (they didnt even give winter a shot).

Now if Air Canada sees YUL-SFO as unprofitable (the routes been operating since 1997, only now they see it unprofitable?) why are they contemplating a 2nd flight? Why would Air Canada fly YUL-SFO since 1997? Why would Air Canada chop a route with origin & destination figures that are greater than 100,000 passengers?

The good thing is this flight will be back, just like Continental to Houston, just like SATA to Lisbon, just like Air Canada 2nd flight to FRA.

Mark


User currently offlineGmonney From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2159 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 1233 times:

Well well well, the farmiliar face or name is back to defend this 3.5million person populated city. How about this Mark, i was willing to fly Tango to MCO from YYZ, and you know what i would have had to do.....go through YUL, did i mind, not at all, actually it would have been good to see you again, but the girlfriend's parents paid for a direct flight to MCO on TS.

I think dedicated passengers would fly YUL-YYZ-SFO for some little (well maybe not little) thing called AEROMILES. Do you know how many peple have this credit card and how many people have these miles.....YES LOTS, even lots of Montreal people have them. SO for the better part of a month or so, they will have to connect through YYZ, personally i don't care where people have to connect from or to, AC still operates YUL-SFO, one way or another.

I know that when you look on the internet at the AC website and you punch in a destination, you get many options, like connecting through different cities, and also going direct. Thats the beauty of AC, they have lots of flights from different places, heck one day if I have to go to the east coast, i may have to connect through YUL, GREAT, as long as i get to where i want to go and at a decent time. I am not boycotting YUL, i am just saying is that the fact of the matter is YUL-SFO is suspended for some reason, it will be back, passenges will have to connect through YYZ, it could be worse, they could have been forced to use another airline.....but they don't, LONG LIVE AC!

Grant



Drive it like you stole it!
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 1230 times:

I just think there are a few routes that could be spared before YUL-SFO and they wont because its AC, AC has this thing for YYZ Big grin

Ill bet you X-dollars that a single YYZ-ATL or YYZ-YEG or YYZ-DFW/IAH could be spared before YUL-SFo (which reports good load factors etc etc.) But we dont, that is the reality. In a perfect world, Air Canada would chop the least profitable routes (and lets not try to assume that YYZ-DFW with 37% is profitable Big grin ) but it wont.... some cities have higher agenda's, and some routes no matter how much yield/revenue r(or losses), just dont stay/or stay permanently for that matter because of what the route represents...

So of course im bullcrapping Big grin and AC is motivated by profit, I dont need a dupe of the speech. But I do know Air Canada has eliminated profitable routes from Montreal, it has, and perhaps will continue, but have refrained substantially since consolidation at Dorval.

Whatever it is, YUL-SFO is chopped for a month, it'll be back and tell Neil to stop pleasuring himself thinking about a chopped flight at YUL..

Mark







25 Skywatcher : I doubt there are many connections at all offered in the entire AC schedule (including Jazz and all other flavours) from YYZ through YUL (or YOW) to a
26 Yyz717 : This is more than ample volume for Air Canada to do well on, Hello????? Are you dreaming again? Then why did AC stop the damn route?? Fine, but why no
27 Mark_D. : Skywatcher -- I have literally lost entire days of my life ... as a result of fouled up connections through YYZ. Call me whatever you want, but when I
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